RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Forum for information about the annual show at RAF Cosford
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speedshrew
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by speedshrew »

Right, this is getting utterly daft now! some posters are acting liking immuture children here. Peter has responded, something he didn't have to do. These shows are not all about us enthusiasts, are Joe Public going to give a damn which point on the compass they fly from or even know any different? As long as everyone enjoys the flying and day out, which Peter and his team have worked hard on, that's all that should matter.
I really hope the posters calling for the Reds and Typhoon being cancelled are talking with their tongues in their cheeks, because calling for the one general crowd puller to be cancelled is just naiive....

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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

CJS wrote:Imagine the response if they were cancelled. Yes of course no airshow is bigger than two acts, but can you honestly, hand on heart Dan, say that you'd take that decision? I mean actually. The RAF's support of their own show was - until recently one could argue - woeful: take this away and would it give them a reason to not bother even more in the future (= slow death of the show?).


I'll be interested to see if they still over fly the crowd at the start of any displays this year as in previous years. I know it's not an aerobatic mannouvre (spelling?) but still...

And to those taking a pop at Peter and his team, do grow up. It's quite obviously nothing to do with them is it?


When I said "cancel them", don't you think I was possibly, I don't know, being a little tongue-in-cheek? It's an RAF show, so of course they won't cancel RAF assets, dire as they are.

Wouldn't half send a message if they did though...

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CJS
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by CJS »

I actually didn't spot where your tongue was, I'm going to blame a twenty month old little boy who hasn't slept for two days. Or I would if that wasn't desperately immoral...

Apologies Dan.

For what it's worth, neither display is dire, even if where they display is!
With just the slightest bit of finesse, I might have made a little less mess.

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Danny
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Danny »

This is going to be nothing short of a PR disaster for the RAF, particularly with foreign military present able to use the normal axis.

Let's hope they see sense.
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Pringles
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Pringles »

Thanks Tommy, I appreciate what you've said and can understand why Peter might be annoyed reading what's been said, but it is a frustrating situation for all of us. Can I reiterate that I appreciate all of the effort made by the organising team and understand that the blame lies with those higher up in the Air Force. I don't wish to accuse the organisers of conning us or anything of the like, however I would be upset if it does indeed turn out that the team knew and sat on the information as speaking personally with only a weekend job, this isn't a cheap undertaking for myself. If only the RAFAT and Typhoon are affected then I will probably still attend as I'll see them elsewhere at RIAT etc - it is testament to some of the other unique items in the line up that I am still hoping they will be unaffected and I'll still be going :up:
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JonG96
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by JonG96 »

Danny wrote:This is going to be nothing short of a PR disaster for the RAF, particularly with foreign military present able to use the normal axis.

Let's hope they see sense.


They need to pull their finger out of their backside, these rules are getting completely out of hand, especially enforcing it to arguably the safest displays performing on the day. As somebody else said, if they have any inkling at the back of their mind that they might crash into the nearby estate then they shouldn't be flying at all as far as I'm concerned. Fantastic response Peter, fully understand it's not your team's fault and hopefully you can sort this farce out. :mad: :wall:

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alpha586
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by alpha586 »

I think with the level of childish posts on this thread I might just have a self imposed ban on this site and get some more considered and measured comments from the RIAT nutters group on facebook. Utterly pathetic. If it is what the powers that be have dictated then so be it there is nothing that we can do about it, and we should just let the organisers get on with it instead of asking a 1001 questions of them.
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speedbird2639
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by speedbird2639 »

The organisers should wait until they start their show and then red card them for using the 'wrong' axis.

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Wrexham Mackem
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Wrexham Mackem »

So to get this straight, the most elite pilots in the Air Force are not being trusted by an RAF command who appear to be risk averse to the point of 'lacking moral fibre' to use their own term.

The Cosford team shouldn't cancel them. 80% of the audience would be up in arms if the reds and Typhoon were absent. But they should make the situation perfectly clear on the day. Shame those responsible.

As for individuals on here turning on the Cosford team and alleging conspiracy. - don't be so thick. This is meant to be an enthusiasts forum.
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Lucasjmet15
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Lucasjmet15 »

I think a lot of people on here should go and try to organize their own airshow as they seem to be experts in airshow management :whistle: :whistle:

borismorris
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by borismorris »

An R.A.F. base presumably staffed by R.A.F. employees cancelling R.A.F. assets at the only R.A.F. show...
With the aim of shaming the R.A.F.

Biting the hand that feeds springs to mind.

I would put it to those suggesting cancelling the Reds/Typhoon that Peter & co. are almost compelled to have them on the roster. Cancelling is clearly not an option.

Those of you that are the most bothered, why not rock up on at the far western end of the display line? You will be as close as you can be then at least.

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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

borismorris wrote:An R.A.F. base presumably staffed by R.A.F. employees cancelling R.A.F. assets at the only R.A.F. show...
With the aim of shaming the R.A.F.

Biting the hand that feeds springs to mind.

I would put it to those suggesting cancelling the Reds/Typhoon that Peter & co. are almost compelled to have them on the roster. Cancelling is clearly not an option.

Those of you that are the most bothered, why not rock up on at the far western end of the display line? You will be as close as you can be then at least.


A hand that feeds them scraps, in all honesty.

Let no-one be in any doubt as to the message this sends out from the RAF - it's that their displays require a safety margin bigger than any other act on the programme. In other words, they feel that they're less safe than the civilian acts, and military of other nations.

Embarrassing.

TYPHOON3
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by TYPHOON3 »

The naughty fields would have got an even better view than usual but they have been stopped from opening anyway haven't they?Obviousy they are not going to cancel two of the more exciting and well known displays but it would send out a message that if the RAF couldn't be bothered to display on the same display axis as the rest,why bother asking them to display in the future?They will get slated anyway on Social Media if they are miles away and something like the Wingwalkers are a lot closer.Not the shows fault but they will probably still blame the organisers.

borismorris
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by borismorris »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
borismorris wrote:An R.A.F. base presumably staffed by R.A.F. employees cancelling R.A.F. assets at the only R.A.F. show...
With the aim of shaming the R.A.F.

Biting the hand that feeds springs to mind.

I would put it to those suggesting cancelling the Reds/Typhoon that Peter & co. are almost compelled to have them on the roster. Cancelling is clearly not an option.

Those of you that are the most bothered, why not rock up on at the far western end of the display line? You will be as close as you can be then at least.


A hand that feeds them scraps, in all honesty.

Let no-one be in any doubt as to the message this sends out from the RAF - it's that their displays require a safety margin bigger than any other act on the programme. In other words, they feel that they're less safe than the civilian acts, and military of other nations.

Embarrassing.


Or it could be that the culture of sensationalist doom mongering journalism coupled with the litigation/ compensation mentality has created an environment where the flagships of the R.A.F. are simply risk averse.

Its easy to say its embarassing but who's embarrased?..you?, The R.A.F.? Or the Authority which has implemented these changes.?

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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

In fairness to the acts themselves, I'm sure they'd rather not be forced to use a different line either - this decision will have been made from behind a desk, not a control stick.

Timc
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Timc »

At the end of the day, and as I said previously, let's wait and see?

We don't really know how moving the display box/line westerly will impact on the overall "experience" until it's witnessed?

Granted, on first reading the statement it does sound all doom and gloom but that might not necessarily be the case?

It will be interesting to read the comments on here come a week on Sunday, positive or negative?

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speedbird2639
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by speedbird2639 »

They will get slated anyway on Social Media if they are miles


They will be miles away. Given that Cosford uses the extreme Western grassed area up between the hangars and the wooded area for visitor parking they will presumably have to assume that people could legitimately remain in that area while the flying display is on and therefore any separation between the crowd and the display line will have to be measured from the Western edge of that area. The area is about 1km from crowd centre so adding in the separation between that line and the display line I would estimate these two acts will be circa 1500m from crowd centre and nearer 2km from those choosing to view at the Eastern end of the field. It should be fun trying to explain to Mr and Mrs Daily Mail from Tipton why the Italian Tornado did a 0.95M low level pass right in front of them but the Red Arrows are displaying over Telford.

If this is the way the risk averse numpties at the RAF wish to go with their displays then my advice to them for subsequent shows would be to base all display aircraft at Shawbury and rotate the show ground 180 degrees: the sun will then be behind the crowd; you could use both the areas North and South of the runway for visitor parking and the display axis could be to the North of the field where there is little or no development. Problem solved. The only 'loss' would be the take offs and landings but a lot of the display items arrive from other fields anyway and other shows seem to be reasonably successful with acts arriving from other fields.

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st24
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by st24 »

Timc wrote:At the end of the day, and as I said previously, let's wait and see?

We don't really know how moving the display box/line westerly will impact on the overall "experience" until it's witnessed?

Granted, on first reading the statement it does sound all doom and gloom but that might not necessarily be the case?

It will be interesting to read the comments on here come a week on Sunday, positive or negative?

How can it be anything other than detrimental to the viewing experience?? Since the '20s Airshow displays have been aligned on a display axis - usually the runway with crowd along that. Every display is designed around that model. Will this secondary display axis need centreline markers and I presume a practice for both as it's totally alien to the standard Cosford set up? I just don't get it. Surely the more meddling with display lines and differing axis can only have a negative effect on crews and crowds alike...
I'm still struggling to get this..
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106500
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by 106500 »

Perish the thought and I never thought I'd say this but this is the sort of stuff that should be aired in the tabloid rags such as the Fail - if only to draw the publics attention to such absurdity.

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Timc »

st24 wrote:How can it be anything other than detrimental to the viewing experience?? Since the '20s Airshow displays have been aligned on a display axis - usually the runway with crowd along that. Every display is designed around that model. Will this secondary display axis need centreline markers and I presume a practice for both as it's totally alien to the standard Cosford set up? I just don't get it. Surely the more meddling with display lines and differing axis can only have a negative effect on crews and crowds alike...
I'm still struggling to get this..


Point very much taken and yes it has crossed my mind as to the fact that introducing a new display line and for the pilots to re-orientate their display could be problematic?

I take it display teams still use landmarks/ground features to get their bearings so to speak?

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Danny
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Danny »

The Reds do routinely practice using an alternative display axis at Scampton (e.g. at 90 degrees to the runway instead of parallel to it) - so I can't see it causing them too many problems.

Although, depending on where the datum point is for the alternative axis at Cosford - won't the crowd rear arrival now have to be flown parallel to, or potentially directly over and along the entire main spectator area? At least that could be interesting.
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by N48284 »

Dan O'Hagan wrote: Let no-one be in any doubt as to the message this sends out from the RAF - it's that their displays require a safety margin bigger than any other act on the programme. In other words, they feel that they're less safe than the civilian acts, and military of other nations.


Lets not forget it was one of their own (albeit ex RAF now) who's actions in 2015 created all this new legislation!

rob68
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by rob68 »

Isn't there an off base field accessed off the A464 that charges £5 or similar that is more or less at the end of the runway? If it is open this year moving the display axis is pointless isn't it?

JonG96
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by JonG96 »

They'll be holding a Facebook Live session on Monday to address the concerns

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

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