RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Forum for information about the annual show at RAF Cosford
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Andyperkins
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Andyperkins »

Flare Path wrote:You know it's Cosford week when the weather is absolutely appalling - throwing it down here.


I think it was 2014 when on the Saturday they had a big storm pass through and the locals I spoke too said at the time they could not imagine how it could go ahead on the Sunday but besides it getting very muddy making for a difficult exit it was pretty nice weather with plenty of blue skies with the odd shower thrown in.

JonG96
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by JonG96 »

Flare Path wrote:You know it's Cosford week when the weather is absolutely appalling - throwing it down here.


Although, with only 5 or so days to go, it still says Sunny Intervals on the BBC website :wink: :wink: :biggrin: :biggrin:

As long as it doesn't rain, it should be all cushty. :rock:

Kieran19
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Kieran19 »

Met office also predicting nice weather too. Fingers crossed it stays that way!

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Cole
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Cole »

Was beautiful Fri and sat last year....
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speedshrew
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by speedshrew »

Have they given a time for the Facebook live broadcast yet?

Adamwilliams132
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Adamwilliams132 »

speedshrew wrote:Have they given a time for the Facebook live broadcast yet?

It was just on only caught the last minute or so.

JonG96
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by JonG96 »

He said "those of you with a map, the axis would rotate to 291 - 111 degrees"

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Shyft87 »

Anyone else impressed by the inclusion of an italian typhoon? :lol:

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Pringles
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Pringles »

Here's a rough transcript I've thrown together:
How long have we known about this issue?
"We've only known about it for 10 days, and we've spent that 10 day period trying to gauge the effect on our visitors"

How did we reach this decision?
"Our risk management processes are necessarily robust... designed to make sure we are as safe as possible. There is definitely a requirement in the regulations to avoid the overflying of congested areas whilst conducting aerobatics... It was obvious to us that for the Red Arrows and the Typhoon, their display acts would go outside of the flying display area that the FDD has detailed to all participants, and would involve overflying a small area of Albrighton in aerobatics, that is completely unacceptable."

Where is the new axis?
"Broadly: centered just west of the western end of the runway... to the right of where the other acts will be flying. The display line will roughly follow the A464 road... We are closing that road for the duration of those displays, including the 17 tributary roads. The axis are rotated to 291 and 111 degrees."

"For this year the FDD has had to formally defined the display area and propagate that to all of the participants at this year's show... The regulations absolutely preclude aerobatic flying over congested areas, so there's no getting away from the fact that Albrighton is a congested area and therefore aerobatic flying over that area is forbidden... The MAA regulation that applies to this: "All flying displays shall be managed, organised and delivered in order to reduce the risk of life to at least tolerable and as low as reasonably practical"... So it was my decision, we engaged with the Red Arrows and the Typhoon, we couldn't fit them into our display area and we couldn't allow them to fly over Albrighton, and therefore we have shifted the display axis to protect that we can have full displays from those acts."

Why does this affect just the two premier RAF display acts?
"Our display area is set down and defined, all visiting acts and they will display within that display area, including the Italian Typhoon [his words not mine!] which has generated quite a few questions in this regard. The Italian Typhoon [again his words] will be cleared by the MAA but it has already confirmed that it can stay within that display area. It's just that the RAF Typhoon and Red Arrows are such dynamic and such high energy that we couldn't constrain them to that display area."

Why can't they change the nature of their displays?
"All acts have a PDA... To get that they have to be absolutely safe and adhere to all those regulations, the Typhoon and Red Arrows will do the same display at every location, they do not change the display because it is so complex and so high energy... The type of modifications that we would need them to do to then authorize that we're just pushing beyond that safety margin... Therefore we have moved the datum and the axis"


The biggest thing for me is that yes, this was a decision made by the Cosford team, and not the fault of those higher up within the RAF, I worry for what this means for the future of the show! There was also no real explanation as to why this has suddenly become an issue rather than last year (perhaps Peter may be able to clarify if he has time?) and by my rough calculations using the verbal description given, those at crowd centre are looking at an extended distance of 4-5x, and further for anyone to the east of that point - great for those in the Cosford Club(!)

Finally, are the Cosford team absolutely sure that we're getting the Italian Tornado and not a Typhoon? Because the chap giving the address that is responsible for the risk management, apparently doesn't know the difference :facepalm:
Last edited by Pringles on Mon 05 Jun 2017, 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wrexham Mackem
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Wrexham Mackem »

The Typhoon/Tornado thing was clearly and obviously a slip of the tongue.

It seems from that presentation that this boils down to interpretation of the term 'acceptable risk'. Its a subjective term and difficult to qualify, so of course everyone's personal level of acceptable risk is going to vary.

But fast jet display flying is always going to carry an element of risk isn't it? The only way to take that away is to ground the air force.

So, the A464, centered west of the western end of the runway is the location. I'll reserve judgement until Sunday on how that affects the airshow spectacle.
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JonG96
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by JonG96 »

Pringles wrote:Finally, as the Cosford team absolutely sure that we're getting the Italian Tornado and not a Typhoon? Because the chap giving the address that is responsible for the risk management, apparently doesn't know the difference :facepalm:


Also he said because of their high energy displays they changed the axis, the Italian Tornado is arguably just as high energy and is still using the normal display axis :confused:

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Wrexham Mackem
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Wrexham Mackem »

JonG96 wrote:
Pringles wrote:Finally, as the Cosford team absolutely sure that we're getting the Italian Tornado and not a Typhoon? Because the chap giving the address that is responsible for the risk management, apparently doesn't know the difference :facepalm:


Also he said because of their high energy displays they changed the axis, the Italian Tornado is arguably just as high energy and is still using the normal display axis :confused:


If you listen again its that the Typhoon and Reds were the only two displays that couldn't contain their displays to the designated display area. ie. avoiding Albrighton.
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Pringles
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Pringles »

Wrexham Mackem wrote:So, the A464, centered west of the western end of the runway is the location. I'll reserve judgement until Sunday on how that affects the airshow spectacle.

Well a rough calculation suggests that for those at the eastern end, separation from the display will now be around 1.5km - an increase of over 500%? I'd hazard a guess that it will have an impact...


Wrexham Mackem wrote:The Typhoon/Tornado thing was clearly and obviously a slip of the tongue.

He said it numerous times, don't think he said Tornado once - personally that doesn't inspire me with his competence as a risk management officer, whether or not others agree
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JonG96
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by JonG96 »

Wrexham Mackem wrote:
JonG96 wrote:
Pringles wrote:Finally, as the Cosford team absolutely sure that we're getting the Italian Tornado and not a Typhoon? Because the chap giving the address that is responsible for the risk management, apparently doesn't know the difference :facepalm:


Also he said because of their high energy displays they changed the axis, the Italian Tornado is arguably just as high energy and is still using the normal display axis :confused:


If you listen again its that the Typhoon and Reds were the only two displays that couldn't contain their displays to the designated display area. ie. avoiding Albrighton.


So you're telling me that the Tornado is not going to fly over the Albrighton estate, don't believe that for a second.

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Wrexham Mackem
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Wrexham Mackem »

maybe it won't be preforming aeros over the 'avoid' areas? - whatever the detail, the statement made was that the Tornado could comply with the designated display area/regs, and the Typhoon couldn't.
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DeanW
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by DeanW »

Pringles wrote:
Wrexham Mackem wrote:The Typhoon/Tornado thing was clearly and obviously a slip of the tongue.

He said it numerous times, don't think he said Tornado once - personally that doesn't inspire me with his competence as a risk management officer, whether or not others agree

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Pringles
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Pringles »

DeanW wrote:You must be fun at parties.

I don't have to be, it's not my job :wink:
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by capercaillie »

Having watched a few Cosford displays from outside from the Albrighton football pitch as well as inside, this whole escapade reads even more ridiculous. The Reds certainly cover a very wide area when displaying, in previous years the Typhoon has often been between the village and the airfield without much overflying of Albrighton although it certainly does infringe at times. If the RSV Tornado or indeed the Swiss Team perform their normal routines as seen elsewhere, they will overfly Albrighton.

Using the A464 as the display line will look absolutely awful from the crowdline, lets just hope the Reds avoid the electricity pylons to the west of there when performing.

I take it the RAF will be looking for a more remote venue for their RAF airshow next year, is West Freugh available?
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PirateTrickster
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by PirateTrickster »

I'm still not clear on whether the Reds will be coming towards the crowd to perform their photogenic (if you're on the datum) break manoeuvres (Detonator, Gypo break etc) as there doesn't seem much point in doing them if not.

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Pringles
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Pringles »

PirateTrickster wrote:I'm still not clear on whether the Reds will be coming towards the crowd to perform their photogenic (if you're on the datum) break manoeuvres (Detonator, Gypo break etc) as there doesn't seem much point in doing them if not.

Using the reference points and rotation described in the broadcast, the display datum will be somewhere over the A464, just beyond the boundary of the airfield. Given the narrow depth of the viewing area, I'd say the front row of about 50 or so people will have a good view, beyond that I'm not optimistic

If the team persist to enforce this for future shows, I cannot see Cosford enduring as a family-friendly show for more than a few more years, what a disappointing state of affairs
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st24
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by st24 »

Now we've had official answers I'm even more bemused. As caper eluded to- there is no way that the Italian Tornado?!? and Swiss team won't overfly Albrighton whilst performing some high energy manoeuvering be it aerobatic or not. So the A464 and 17, yeas 17!!!! tributary lanes and roads closed for an hour or so so that highly trained RAF pilots in impeccably well serviced and maintained aeroplanes can fly displays that they have trained months for and know inside out.
This is still complete and utter crap and surely points out that Cosford is no longer a viable airshow location. Again nodding to m'learned colleague - West Freugh is good, or Machrihanish perhaps??.. :dunno: :facepalm:
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PirateTrickster
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by PirateTrickster »

Whilst we won't have the Reds and Typhoon as close as we'd like, we still do have :-

- Italian Tornado
- Swiss PC-7 team (only UK appearance, and one I'm really looking forward to)
- Chinook
- Apache
- BBMF 4-ship Spitfire
- Sally B
- Sea Vixen
- Falcons
- Whirlwind (last airworthy example)
- 2 x Strikemaster
- P51
- Bronco
- Rich Goodwin's Pitts (please can we have the 2015 commentator)
- The Blades
- Wingwalkers
- AW189

Plus all the stuff on static including A400M and BAE 146. Still outstanding value and I'm still very much looking forward to it.

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by capercaillie »

PirateTrickster wrote:Whilst we won't have the Reds and Typhoon as close as we'd like, we still do have :-

- Sea Vixen


Ambitious perhaps. :whistle:
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Pringles
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Pringles »

My worry is, if either the Tornado or Swiss PC-7s stray near Albrighton, a nervous FDD may well red card them - what then?!

The Red Arrows have displayed over Cosford in various guises since the late '70s/early '80s, I must have missed all of the catastrophic crashes that have occurred as they've fallen out of the sky over Albrighton :surrender: It has been pointed out on social media that if operating from Shawbury, is it not possible that the Red Arrows will perform the same or similar break for landing that Flt Lt Jon Egging was untertaking when he crashed in 2013, over the built-up town or any of the smaller settlements around the airfield?
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by alpha586 »

Ok so we have had the official word on what why where and who! Massive thanks to the team for the update and the fact that the Wg Cmdr came out and took full responsibility for the desicion is a refreshing change from the normal passing the buck we see mps doing every day!
So it's going to be different and there is no getting away from it. There are going to be a lot of quizzical looks on sunday afternoon from those not in the know. Yes it will have a big effect on the impact of both displays but it is what it is no amount of debate or pontificating is going to change it. Those supporting the show will go and no doubt have a good day despite the change I know I will! :cuppa:
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