RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Forum for information about the annual show at RAF Cosford
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The Baron
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by The Baron »

Once again you just couldn't make it up.
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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

The Baron wrote:Once again you just couldn't make it up.


Indeed. And still the penny doesn't drop that bringing displays closer to the crowdline a) reduces the risk to those outside and b) removes the benefit of "freeloading" and incentive to do so.

One idiot screwing up in 60 years did not make airshows unacceptably risky.

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by kianelle »

This is the field that police said it was ok to stand in well away from display line but directly under Reds and Typhoon if displayed. The traffic on A464 was not stopped during display .

https://flic.kr/p/UtDQHy

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Pringles
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Pringles »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:One idiot screwing up in 60 years did not make airshows unacceptably risky.

Absolutely no need for that, poor form even for you :down:
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speedbird2639
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by speedbird2639 »

The traffic on A464 was not stopped during display


So what happened to the 17 roads closures we were promises?

As I mentioned earlier this needs to be escalated up and resolved at Reds Team Leader/ show organiser/ senior Police level because if they are moving their display axis because of a perceived H&S issue with the original axis (used by all other display acts) only to have the Police herd people into a field directly under the display while traffic continues to flow along an A road under said display then it is both completely defeating the object of moving the display axis whilst at the same time providing the paying public with significantly decreased experience in the showground.

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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

Pringles wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:One idiot screwing up in 60 years did not make airshows unacceptably risky.

Absolutely no need for that, poor form even for you :down:


You didn't read the report then?

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by binbrook87 »

kianelle wrote:This is the field that police said it was ok to stand in well away from display line but directly under Reds and Typhoon if displayed. The traffic on A464 was not stopped during display .

https://flic.kr/p/UtDQHy


The traffic WAS stopped. I couldn't make the show proper this year but snatched a couple of hours in the afternoon stood on the A464, where a section was closed off during the Reds display. Just prior to the Reds the police came along and said they had to advise the public of the dangers of standing along the road! This message they repeated every few hundred yards. The display ended up being directly overhead. Very difficult to police the entire area as there are numerous fields where people were watching, but police were presumably trying to keep large groups of parked cars away (ala Cricket Club scenario etc)

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speedbird2639
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by speedbird2639 »

The seemingly obvious thing to do would be to concentrate as much of the display over the airfield which at a stroke would both remove the threat to those watching in 'secondary' crowds and make 'freeloading' outside the show ground less appealing.

Maybe acts like the Reds need to go away and come up with a display which is more suited to a compact showground and modern expectations of overflight of adjacent populated areas rather than insisting on a specific display axis for themselves which then directly over flies secondary crowds and busy local roads.

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CJS
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by CJS »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
Pringles wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:One idiot screwing up in 60 years did not make airshows unacceptably risky.

Absolutely no need for that, poor form even for you :down:


You didn't read the report then?


We all read the report Dan, it didn't call him an 'idiot' anywhere. There are ways and means of saying things, perhaps hyperbole is sometimes best left out of it.

Obviously your point is extremely valid - the incident at Shoreham has not in any way made airshows less safe - what this debacle at Cosford seems to have underlined is that the reaction to it may have done.
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effects
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by effects »

speedbird2639 wrote:The seemingly obvious thing to do would be to concentrate as much of the display over the airfield which at a stroke would both remove the threat to those watching in 'secondary' crowds and make 'freeloading' outside the show ground less appealing.

Maybe acts like the Reds need to go away and come up with a display which is more suited to a compact showground and modern expectations of overflight of adjacent populated areas rather than insisting on a specific display axis for themselves which then directly over flies secondary crowds and busy local roads.

More tripe, there is no way a large jet team can display within airfield boundaries.
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andrewn
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by andrewn »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
Pringles wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:One idiot screwing up in 60 years did not make airshows unacceptably risky.

Absolutely no need for that, poor form even for you :down:


You didn't read the report then?


And you didnt read the Gnat report either then Dan? Part time pilots flying aeros in high performance jets with minimum currency, flying a potentially unbriefed sequence they may have rarely flown in that aircraft and at unsuitable venues with a lack of overall supervision was a disaster, literally, waiting to happen. All that said to attempt to blame AH is entirely wrong - it was the system in place that allowed the holes in the cheese to line up! But you know all this dont you?:)

The subsequent over reaction is 1) an attempt to make it look like the regulators are doing something useful and 2) the result of a much more risk averse attitude on behalf of those responsible (in this case senior authorising RAF officers).

But again you know this as well, so why troll the thread?

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by spellow3010 »

Much of what has been written about many of the star acts at Cosford and the amended display line etc have already been written so will not repeat.

Well done to Peter and team for a very nice airshow. The rain shower moment did not spoil the day and anyway was beyond your control. It was actually nice to see the RAF Falcons manage to get a display jump out in that tricky wind and the spectacle was something that my young daughter took away at the end of the day as something great to report back on at school the next day. In previous years (though can't recall at Cosford per se) the Falcons do a line a up and then the transport aircraft comes in for a 'low' fly past that signifies the team's salute to the crowd. Any reason why the aircraft couldn't do that?

A shout out as well for the motor glider (G-109?) display. That was a very surprisingly spirited and dramatic looking moment in time.

Enjoyed the retro Whirlwind (!!) and the Red Tail Mustang (off to North Weald on Thursday to shoot that again) too.

I think overall, 2017 was a success, so well done from me. Happy customer... with a red nose now. :up:

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DerekF
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by DerekF »

Yes, I remember it used to be a rush for the Falcons to get their kit ready and line up for a salute as the Hercules did a low flypast. The Dornier would probably need a display authorization these days.

Just to add what I wrote earlier and looking back at my photos, the BBMF were quite impressive as well. Seeing that tight formation curving round certainly brought a round of applause where I was standing and despite the hysterical outpouring on this thread, most of the families around me were still impressed with the Red Arrows, That might be different if you were nearer the railway station end. The Reds certainly put on a decent show in tricky conditions and within the parameters that were imposed on them.

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by spellow3010 »

On that note about the Reds... 'Lingy' during the commentary mentioned about how one of their formations was amended following on from feedback from the public last season. I think it was the one called the 'Tornado.' I am mindful of contacting the Red Arrows team to give feedback on their opening pass from crowd rear. I love the crowd rear approach, but I cannot stand this 'one thousand feet wide formation.' I think (and it's only my view) that the opening formation should be nice and tight, arrow shaped and with all the air brakes and smoke hanging out.

Is anyone actually able to get all of that opening formation into the lens of their camera to make a usable picture.

Other than that, still love the reds :up:

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Harvo266
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Harvo266 »

spellow3010 wrote:On that note about the Reds... 'Lingy' during the commentary mentioned about how one of their formations was amended following on from feedback from the public last season. I think it was the one called the 'Tornado.' I am mindful of contacting the Red Arrows team to give feedback on their opening pass from crowd rear. I love the crowd rear approach, but I cannot stand this 'one thousand feet wide formation.' I think (and it's only my view) that the opening formation should be nice and tight, arrow shaped and with all the air brakes and smoke hanging out.

Is anyone actually able to get all of that opening formation into the lens of their camera to make a usable picture.

Other than that, still love the reds :up:

Their Tornado move this year is awesome, really photogenic. With regards to the crowd rear entrance, I can see both sides. I think that it is too wide and is difficult to photograph and I honestly prefer the battle arrival, but I don't think they could arrive with airbrakes out as they usually pull straight into a loop with a ceiling of around 6000ft and the hawks would struggle to complete that loop when they've just had their airbrakes out. But as a pro for the current arrival, I think it's great to watch as it is just such a big formation.
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austinp
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by austinp »

I nearly didn't go because of the weather, and then the forecast changed - the promise of a B-1 and B-52 sealed my decision :-) So, third Cosford in three years, and the best weather of the lot (at last).

Entry was very smooth and well managed.

Going solo this year meant I'd gone around the static displays by 10am, so I got them photographed before the masses arrived. I'm not sure if I like the smaller collections of statics dotted around the place, as a previous member noted, it's easy to miss something if you are not on the ball - and I nearly missed the camo Tornado. That said, the smaller collections work to Cosford's size.

By 10.30am, I was trying to find a spot to setup shop for the display. It was busy, and rather disappointingly, shelters/tents and windbreaks were present. With space at a premium, I think this stuff should be banned - sorry, but I really hate this 'furniture', I think its unfair the space it takes and spoils things for people who aren't gifted with being tall.

Over to the east end, I found a spot at the front. Unexpected, but grateful :-) A great spot, maybe a third of the way along the runway.

Now it was a case of waiting for things to kick-off. I was glad I'd got jeans on, a fleece and my coat - the wind never gave up throughout the show, at times I was freezing!

Anyway, I expected the Falcon's to cancel due to the wind, and luckily they didn't. The rest of the displays flowed, for the most part, with a reasonable commentary provided. I think my highlights were the AN-2, amazing to see it fly by so slooooooowly ;-) The Muscle plane - wow. And the Tornado, great stuff. It was good to see the B-1 and B-52, the main reasons I went; a shame the weather decided to turn just as the B-1 appeared. And the B-52, cool to see one fly. Flying wrapped up with the Wokka Wokka, a good way to end a really enjoyable (and windy) day :-)

However, the appearance of the B-1 and B-52 caught everyone by surprise. And I think it highlights the need for the tower to be in a place where they can see what Joe Public can see, or at the very least give a better heads' up to the public - I very nearly missed both (so pleased the B-52 came back).

It's a shame the Typhoon went tech, but what can you do? As the RAF's main airshow, they need to get their act together. The Reds helped redeem things a little, but the axis they performed on was wrong.

Static selection was good, nice to see the EAP outside. Disappointed not to see a Harrier displayed in a field (??) diorama. But other than that, I was impressed, very little clutter to hinder photography. Not least seeing a A400 there - I watched the video of it landing, amazing (even the wife was impressed).

The stalls selling diecast and model kits seems to get less and less each year at airshows, instead being replaced by others that I wouldn't expect at an airshow. Is the market for diecast and model kits dead???

On the day, I got a lunch meal deal (prior to leaving Sheffield), and only purchased the obligatory Programme. A cheap day out. I have to say, that I'm very impressed by Cosford Airshow - at £25, it really is a bargain. Scampton will be my local, but I can't justify the cost.

After the Chinook had finished, I debated looking at the museum, or heading home. Being a few hundred metres from the car, I decided to escape - to do the museum justice, it deserves a day by itself I think. My decision to leave was a good one, I was actually off-base in just 10 minutes.

I'd rate Cosford at 8 ouf of 10. Traffic management is spot on, please don't change it. Adjust the tower location, or greatly improve communication on approaching aircraft, and that's it I think.

RIAT next, unless I go to Flying Legends. Cosford 2018? Depends on the line-up :-)

Thanks for reading.

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Danny »

Harvo266 wrote:
spellow3010 wrote:On that note about the Reds... 'Lingy' during the commentary mentioned about how one of their formations was amended following on from feedback from the public last season. I think it was the one called the 'Tornado.' I am mindful of contacting the Red Arrows team to give feedback on their opening pass from crowd rear. I love the crowd rear approach, but I cannot stand this 'one thousand feet wide formation.' I think (and it's only my view) that the opening formation should be nice and tight, arrow shaped and with all the air brakes and smoke hanging out.

Is anyone actually able to get all of that opening formation into the lens of their camera to make a usable picture.

Other than that, still love the reds :up:

Their Tornado move this year is awesome, really photogenic. With regards to the crowd rear entrance, I can see both sides. I think that it is too wide and is difficult to photograph and I honestly prefer the battle arrival, but I don't think they could arrive with airbrakes out as they usually pull straight into a loop with a ceiling of around 6000ft and the hawks would struggle to complete that loop when they've just had their airbrakes out. But as a pro for the current arrival, I think it's great to watch as it is just such a big formation.


I wonder if the reasoning behind the wide formation is to just increase the distance between the jets whilst flying directly over the crowd?
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by capercaillie »

Not sure how much people look around and keep their eyes peeled at airshows? I can appreciate a small area close to where the Cosford Club tent is positioned would have their view obscured, but the B-52 was circling for a few minutes to the northwest of the airfield before it commenced its long curving smoky run in during Sally B's display. They're not the most unsubtle of things in the sky when approaching! :dunno:

Yes the commentary team had no idea, and I've no idea why they're not in contact with the tower to be guided by its arrival and announce it as such. Equally after announcing the B-1 was on its way, two minutes of nothing but oooh scary, :ghost: eerie music before it blasted through. Perhaps suggesting it was 30 seconds out, or approaching from the right, again may have helped those in the showground, especially as its visit was blink and you'll miss it. :rock:

Some great display acts - Italian Tornado is top drawer :up: , Rich Goodwin great as ever, Grob 109 surprisingly good and some interesting novelties such as the Whirlwind, plus some decent statics well parked contributed to a very decent show.

Still think the RAF support of their own show is woeful compared to other air arms and again they'll be contributing more front line aircraft to Her Maj's flypast than to their one public airshow.
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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by B_Tank88 »

I had a great time.

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by Wes_Howes »

austinp wrote:By 10.30am, I was trying to find a spot to setup shop for the display. It was busy, and rather disappointingly, shelters/tents and windbreaks were present. With space at a premium, I think this stuff should be banned

Yes, I definitely agree with this. An example I saw was, just to the right of the Cosford Club a group had set up two event shelters, both over 6 foot tall and taking even more space on the ground. All that was underneath were rucksacks :mad: Cosford uses a good system to keep the parking areas and viewing areas seperate, this should also be used to keep tents, windbreaks and other shelters away from the crowdline.

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by DerekF »

I have to say that I was quite glad of the windbreak that one family had setup. I sat behind it and they watched the display mostly sitting down, giving me a clear view. Because of the direction of the wind, it was also useful as an actual windbreak as well. For me if not for them.

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by not_the_dj »

austinp wrote:The stalls selling diecast and model kits seems to get less and less each year at airshows, instead being replaced by others that I wouldn't expect at an airshow. Is the market for diecast and model kits dead???


I noticed that as well, not sure how many people came away with garden ornaments, some new alloys for their car and bargain perfume from the annoying chap with the microphone.

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by AFKAMC »

not_the_dj wrote:
austinp wrote:The stalls selling diecast and model kits seems to get less and less each year at airshows, instead being replaced by others that I wouldn't expect at an airshow. Is the market for diecast and model kits dead???


I noticed that as well, not sure how many people came away with garden ornaments, some new alloys for their car and bargain perfume from the annoying chap with the microphone.


There seemed to be about 3 or 4 model kit stalls, which I thought was about the usual number? The number of book stalls seemed down on previous years, though; I only counted one that was exclusively for books.

Entry to and exit from the base were excellent, the smoothest and quickest I've ever known. Admittedly I got there early and left late to avoid the worst of the traffic, but even so I was impressed.

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by speedbird2639 »

By 10.30am, I was trying to find a spot to setup shop for the display. It was busy, and rather disappointingly, shelters/tents and windbreaks were present.


When I came onto the base just after 8.30 there was already a row of chairs reserving places for the majority of the crowdline either side of the Cosford Club; to arrive at 10.30am expecting a place at the front is naive at best. When I was last at Cosford 2 years ago you could barely see a blade of grass in the 'lawn' areas of the crowd as it was so packed - thankfully they have moved the car park away from the crowdline and so it was much more comfortable.

Regarding the perennial tents/ windbreaks argument I think the best solution would be to do what RIAT does and have a 10m line which anyone wishing to make use of a tent or windbreak has to remain behind, leaving the crowdline unobstructed. Enforcing a blanket ban would be impossible as there simply wouldn't be the personnel to go round to every person with a tent and to stand there making sure they packed it away. I believe the two biggish tents to the right of the Cosford Club were the RAF Air Cadets - I'm fairly sure the organisers of the RAF's only air show are not going to tell the RAF Air cadets that they can't have their shelter up at the air show especially as it was several metres back from the crowdline. I would guess that with todays safeguarding rules they are obliged to provide a shelter and obvious meeting point. As Derek said the windbreaks were not only of benefit to those using them but those sheltering in the leeward side out of the wind.

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Re: RAF Cosford Air Show 2017 - [Main Topic]

Post by lappup »

I'll start by saying I enjoyed the show this year, well done to the team. I was lucky enough to be in the Cosford Club enclosure this year which is a great uncrowded experience. Only problem was that someone decided to park a Puma right in front of us which meant that we couldn't see the majority of the pyros to the full effect and blocked the view of the runway. There was a huge 'press area' inside the enclosure to which a mass contingent of 10 photographers sat - was that size an area really necessary??

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