Display lines and overshoots...
- LN Strike Eagle
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Re: Display lines and overshoots...
Belgian F-16 was miles away yesterday. Many of the fast jets were, actually, along with the Vulcan. Even the warbirds were - Sally B looked totally lost at a venue that size.
"You really are an oafish philistine at times!"
Re: Display lines and overshoots...
A good point Dan. After 25 years of Air shows, I don't think I have ever felt so detached from a display. The mighty Vulcan (on Saturday at least) almost seemed like it was displaying somewhere else.
I'm sure it must be frustrating for the crews too.
Mark
I'm sure it must be frustrating for the crews too.
Mark
HTAFC
Re: Display lines and overshoots...
Interesting that the Chinook was allowed to touch down and fly backwards down the runway before lifting off again, do different rules apply to helicopters?
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Re: Display lines and overshoots...
Apart from take offs and landings,the fast jet aircraft at least,were mainly displaying over us on the airfield perimeter fence!
many of the passes were 'straight down the wire' to us,and the low & fast pass by the Dutch F16 was just unbelievable!
I was amazed how far away the 'inside audience' were from the action,I needed binoculars to try and pick some of the crowd out!
and I reckon we got most of the 'real' noise too....
Maybe Fairford has always been a way off the crowdline?.....I do remember the Vulcan at IAT 1991 seemed a good bit more distant than Abingdon 90 display
many of the passes were 'straight down the wire' to us,and the low & fast pass by the Dutch F16 was just unbelievable!
I was amazed how far away the 'inside audience' were from the action,I needed binoculars to try and pick some of the crowd out!
and I reckon we got most of the 'real' noise too....
Maybe Fairford has always been a way off the crowdline?.....I do remember the Vulcan at IAT 1991 seemed a good bit more distant than Abingdon 90 display
Last edited by Abingdonman on Sun 21 Jul 2013, 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Display lines and overshoots...
The Belgian F-16 did a touch and go at Yeovilton last weekend, and the Vulcan did a missed approach
- Fat Albert
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- Joined: Mon 01 Sep 2008, 6:46 pm
Re: Display lines and overshoots...
Is it a coincidence that Dan who appears to have a huge axe to grind against RIAT starts a negative post ?
We as enthusiasts and a family have had a top 5 days.
Just my opinion mind .......
Can't quite go to bed yet as the coppers are checking out all us naughty peeps camping on the fence line in their Unliked helo that has no place here aparantly.
We as enthusiasts and a family have had a top 5 days.
Just my opinion mind .......
Can't quite go to bed yet as the coppers are checking out all us naughty peeps camping on the fence line in their Unliked helo that has no place here aparantly.
Re: Display lines and overshoots...
FGR2 wrote:The Belgian F-16 did a touch and go at Yeovilton
I don't think he was meant to!
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Re: Display lines and overshoots...
Fat Albert wrote:Is it a coincidence that Dan who appears to have a huge axe to grind against RIAT starts a negative post ?
We as enthusiasts and a family have had a top 5 days.
Just my opinion mind .......
Can't quite go to bed yet as the coppers are checking out all us naughty peeps camping on the fence line in their Unliked helo that has no place here aparantly.
Its not even a negative post really though? And about airshows / regulations rather than RIAT per se.
And also all of his observations were correct, as facts, not a matter of opinion.
What is that chopper doing though?
- Fat Albert
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- Joined: Mon 01 Sep 2008, 6:46 pm
Re: Display lines and overshoots...
The chopper which I presume is a police one has been over the air field for the past 15mins, if it's a Eurocopter the blurb from the display today about them being nearly silent in operation is poor I would say.
I
I
Last edited by Macc on Sun 21 Jul 2013, 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Swearing
Reason: Swearing
Re: Display lines and overshoots...
Fat Albert wrote:Is it a coincidence that Dan who appears to have a huge axe to grind against RIAT starts a negative post ?
We as enthusiasts and a family have had a top 5 days.
Just my opinion mind .......
Can't quite go to bed yet as the coppers are checking out all us naughty peeps camping on the fence line in their Unliked helo that has no place here aparantly.
That's a ridiculous reply to make to a valid argument, it's pretty hypocritical because you're only pointing it out because it's DanO who has posted it which makes it seem to be like you have an axe to grind against him or his opinions.
Also, swearing is against our forum rules so I've edited your last post.
Re: Display lines and overshoots...
Sadly a quick read of the new regs (2335 is the culprit) gives the answer.
The display line is to be a minimum of 230 metres from the crowd line, runways can ONLY be used for non standard ops if the nearest edge is 230 metres or more from crowd.
Display minima for types of aircraft...
The display line is to be a minimum of 230 metres from the crowd line, runways can ONLY be used for non standard ops if the nearest edge is 230 metres or more from crowd.
Display minima for types of aircraft...
46. Lateral Separation. The following minimum lateral separation distances apply to all military display aircraft at all military and civilian displays, except for Farnborough International Air Show where enhanced local restrictions apply. Civilian pilots may operate in accordance with their CAA DA and CAP 403. Where a FDD, a Display Pilot, or his operating authority considers that a greater separation should be maintained for any specific aircraft or manoeuvre, that minimum should be identified and complied with. If it becomes apparent, either before or during the Display, that the appropriate minima cannot be guaranteed, the Display should be cancelled or abandoned. In the case of displays at airfields/locations where spectator areas are on both sides of the Display Axis, the minimum distances between the Display Line/runway edge and the spectator areas, specified below, should apply on both sides of the Display Line/runway edges. Absolute minima are as follows:
a. Ground Operations. During all ground operations, including refuelling, servicing and at any time when engines or rotors are running, a minimum separation of 15 m should be maintained between spectator areas and the nearest point of the aircraft concerned. This limit applies to aircraft taxiing or hover-taxiing, except when such taxiing is away from a marked taxiway and without the assistance of a marshaller, when the minimum clearance is increased to 65 m.
b. In-Use Runways. The minimum separation between the nearer edge of any runway used for conventional fixed-wing take-off and landings and the crowd-line should be 100 m. However, for light aircraft with a Maximum All Up Mass (MAUM) of less than 1200 kg, and a take-off and landing speed of less than 100 KIAS, this separation may be decreased to 65 m. Other than for emergencies, a runway should only be used for non-standard take-off or landing (defined as one not practised as a SOP for that aircraft), if its edge is at least 230 m from the crowd at all points. Any planned reduction of this separation distance should be the subject of a specific risk assessment, with final approval given by the Aviation Duty Holder and the FDD.
c. In Flight. The normal minimum separation between the crowd-line and aircraft displaying in flight, including rotary-wing displays that involve aerobatics, should be 230 m. However, where the displaying aircraft is at a speed in excess of 300 KIAS, and has a velocity vector towards a spectator area, this minimum separation should be increased to 450 m. For the following aircraft and activities, reduced minimum separations as specified should be permitted:
(1) Light Aircraft. For light aircraft, with a MAUM of less than 1200 kg and operating at speeds of less than 150 KIAS throughout their display, the minimum separation should be 150 m.
(2) Rotary-wing. For normal take-off and landing, and during transitional manoeuvres, the minimum separation should be 50m. For other stages of non-aerobatic flight, or at any time when an under slung load is carried, the minimum separation should be 100 m.
(3) VSTOL Aircraft. For vertical take-off and landing, and during jetborne flight at low speed, the minimum separation should be 150 m. By the time conventional wingborne flight is achieved, the aircraft should be at the normal minimum separation of 230 m.
(4) Balloons. At displays where balloons operate, FDDs should follow the guidance in Chapter 8 of CAP 403. The minimum separation distance should be 20 m. Refuelling should take place in an area to which the public does not have access. The propane tanker or fuel dump should be separated from any large gathering of people by a distance of 100 m and sited so as to avoid possible drainage of propane towards such an area.
(5) Airships. Airships are operated as lighter-than-air aircraft, and as such, should be subject to regulations applying to fixed wing aircraft.
(6) Model Aircraft and Remotely Piloted Air Systems. Where unmanned aerial vehicles are operated at Flying Displays, they should be flown within line-of-sight of the operator, and in accordance with the regulations covering public safety at para 24. FDDs should follow the guidance given in CAPs 403 (Ch 4 Para16) and CAP 658, Model Aircraft; a Guide to Safe Flying.
Re: Display lines and overshoots...
All these 'health and safety' regulations do is make me want to be outside under the flightpath instead of inside. I thought it was OTT already and now it's just taken another step in the wrong direction. If this is what the suing culture has done to us by 2013 I fear for what it will be like come 2025 or 2050, where any object with slight roughness will be covered in bubble wrap.
Re: Display lines and overshoots...
Oh dear. Sounds like a completely needless step in the wrong direction. I wonder what brought that that on?
Re: Display lines and overshoots...
Specifically at Fairford the continuous tightening of rules pushing the display further away from the crowdline has the ironic effect of putting thousands more people at risk in the fields on the opposite side of the airfield. Has there ever been a serious attempt by any authority to prevent this mass gathering of paying public directly under the display area?
I appreciate that it is outside of the control of DBH, but surely at a higher level you cannot look at the safety of those on the airfield in isolation, without considering there are people charging the public to be placed directly under the display area.
This to me seems a very different to the situation to most other shows, where significant efforts are made to prevent this, just leaving a relatively small number of people on public verges etc.
It would be interesting to hear the level of legal responsibility the owners of the land on the north side of the airfield take, the potential scale of disaster doesn't bear thinking about.
I appreciate that it is outside of the control of DBH, but surely at a higher level you cannot look at the safety of those on the airfield in isolation, without considering there are people charging the public to be placed directly under the display area.
This to me seems a very different to the situation to most other shows, where significant efforts are made to prevent this, just leaving a relatively small number of people on public verges etc.
It would be interesting to hear the level of legal responsibility the owners of the land on the north side of the airfield take, the potential scale of disaster doesn't bear thinking about.
- Brevet Cable
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Re: Display lines and overshoots...
And if anyone fancies reading the full text of the MAA RA2335 regs , they're here :
http://www.maa.mod.uk/linkedfiles/regulation/2000_series/ra2335.pdf
There are some parts which event organisers can apply for exemptions to , but they require specific risk assessments & the onus would then fall on them if anything untoward should happen { which is probably why DBH don't bother }
http://www.maa.mod.uk/linkedfiles/regulation/2000_series/ra2335.pdf
There are some parts which event organisers can apply for exemptions to , but they require specific risk assessments & the onus would then fall on them if anything untoward should happen { which is probably why DBH don't bother }
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아직도 숨어있다
아직도 숨어있다
Re: Display lines and overshoots...
Brevet Cable wrote:There are some parts which event organisers can apply for exemptions to , but they require specific risk assessments & the onus would then fall on them if anything untoward should happen { which is probably why DBH don't bother }
I can't blame them, one incident where a few people had a multi-million pound claim and the show would be gone for good. Airshows are now being put in a vulnerable position without their doing.
Re: Display lines and overshoots...
Wissam24 wrote:FGR2 wrote:The Belgian F-16 did a touch and go at Yeovilton
I don't think he was meant to!
Why not? It's part of the regular routine.
Re: Display lines and overshoots...
I didn't notice any of the displays except 558s appearing to be further away at Waddington.
Hasn't it always been 230m display line for fast jets?
Hasn't it always been 230m display line for fast jets?
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Re: Display lines and overshoots...
I've already posted that I was one of the 'freeloaders' stood near the crash gate (with a couple of fire trucks parked nearby)I did mention to a guy I was chatting to that all of us around there and those on the camp sites have probably never been so vulnerable!
The site I aimed for was full to the brim,luckily the landowners let me and a few more lucky drivers park on their own private patch (Thanks Furzy Hill folk for that )and I guess all the other camp sites etc. MUST have been crammed full...
after experiencing how good it was to watch from the wire yesterday,I could only see there being more and more folk being that side of the fence given the weather......
then I wouldnt be surprised if the authorities tried to stop the campsites etc. operating.....introduce a 'no watch' zone if you like!
The site I aimed for was full to the brim,luckily the landowners let me and a few more lucky drivers park on their own private patch (Thanks Furzy Hill folk for that )and I guess all the other camp sites etc. MUST have been crammed full...
after experiencing how good it was to watch from the wire yesterday,I could only see there being more and more folk being that side of the fence given the weather......
then I wouldnt be surprised if the authorities tried to stop the campsites etc. operating.....introduce a 'no watch' zone if you like!
Re: Display lines and overshoots...
Have to agree with DanO here. I suppose like a lot of people, I’ve noticed this for a number of years now that the aircraft seem to get higher and further away each year. I’ve started to think that display flying is now just for the fun of the pilot as it’s too far away for the public to really see properly or feel involved in. I dare say a lot of you will disagree with me, but, all in all, the number of shows I do is dropping each year as I just can’t find the enthusiasm to spend a fair amount of money to watch a display that’s so far away.
Even using a 500 mm and taking into account the 1.6 crop factor it’s hardly worth lifting the camera when fighters or ‘small’ aircraft take to the skies. I find it very frustrating as not only are photos becoming more difficult but actually watching the display becomes, dare I say it, ‘boring’, as the aircraft themselves are practically out of sight for a lot of the time. With it being practically impossible to find a place at the fence line these days if you’ve walked the static displays first, only air shots become possible. I remember the days when a full frame shot of a fighter could be had with a 300 to 400 mm. The only way it seems to achieve this now is to crop heavily. I also remember the days when you could walk the static and still find a spot on the fence line.
Slightly different note, but I see there were signs at Fairford saying ‘no windbreaks or tents beyond this point’. Obviously some people can’t read as I still spotted quite a few right up against the fence .
Even using a 500 mm and taking into account the 1.6 crop factor it’s hardly worth lifting the camera when fighters or ‘small’ aircraft take to the skies. I find it very frustrating as not only are photos becoming more difficult but actually watching the display becomes, dare I say it, ‘boring’, as the aircraft themselves are practically out of sight for a lot of the time. With it being practically impossible to find a place at the fence line these days if you’ve walked the static displays first, only air shots become possible. I remember the days when a full frame shot of a fighter could be had with a 300 to 400 mm. The only way it seems to achieve this now is to crop heavily. I also remember the days when you could walk the static and still find a spot on the fence line.
Slightly different note, but I see there were signs at Fairford saying ‘no windbreaks or tents beyond this point’. Obviously some people can’t read as I still spotted quite a few right up against the fence .
Re: Display lines and overshoots...
Do the delegations cover all venues - aircarft spilled out of my view-finder at Legends last weekend but seemed like dots at RIAT yesterday.
(300mm with 1.6 crop)
(300mm with 1.6 crop)
- Brevet Cable
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Re: Display lines and overshoots...
As previously posted :
c. In Flight. The normal minimum separation between the crowd-line and aircraft displaying in flight, including rotary-wing displays that involve aerobatics, should be 230 m. However, where the displaying aircraft is at a speed in excess of 300 KIAS, and has a velocity vector towards a spectator area, this minimum separation should be increased to 450 m.
I'd assume most of the aircraft at Duxford were displayed at less than 300Kts { about 345MPH } , whereas the jets at RIAT would have exceeded that & therefore required the increased crowd separation.
As far as I can tell , the MAA regs only apply to displays at military estabishments , or for military aircraft at events held at non-mlitary establishments. As such , it shouldn't apply to either Duxford or the civilian warbirds displaying there.
Civilian aircraft at non-military venues should fall under CAP-403 : http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP403.PDF { see Chapter 4 , Page 3 }
Unlike RA2335 , the maximum crowdline separation under CAP-403 is 230m.
c. In Flight. The normal minimum separation between the crowd-line and aircraft displaying in flight, including rotary-wing displays that involve aerobatics, should be 230 m. However, where the displaying aircraft is at a speed in excess of 300 KIAS, and has a velocity vector towards a spectator area, this minimum separation should be increased to 450 m.
I'd assume most of the aircraft at Duxford were displayed at less than 300Kts { about 345MPH } , whereas the jets at RIAT would have exceeded that & therefore required the increased crowd separation.
As far as I can tell , the MAA regs only apply to displays at military estabishments , or for military aircraft at events held at non-mlitary establishments. As such , it shouldn't apply to either Duxford or the civilian warbirds displaying there.
Civilian aircraft at non-military venues should fall under CAP-403 : http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP403.PDF { see Chapter 4 , Page 3 }
Unlike RA2335 , the maximum crowdline separation under CAP-403 is 230m.
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Re: Display lines and overshoots...
I read in the new MAA regs that they apply to all airshows in the UK, the MAA regs are also for civilian acts on behalf of the CAA
Re: Display lines and overshoots...
I cannot comment on RIAT this year as I did not go so if my reply is too off topic please feel free to delete it.
Having taken up going to airshows again from 2009 I can say that there have only been a few airshows I have been to where I can achieve some decent photographs with my 75-300mm lens. Incidentally, when buying my kit I was told by several people that 300mm is plenty for airshows. Shoreham, Old Warden and a couple of small Wings & Wheels events provide excellent viewing and "low" aircraft that are much closer than 230m away from the crowd line. I have always struggled to get nice shots (from mainly jets) from RIAT, Duxford, Farnborough, Bournemouth and Yeovilton without subjecting them to a heavy crop and lots of sharpening and to be honest they all look hideous anyway.
Looking back at some old airshow photo's I have taken from the late 90's and 00's at Shoreham I have a lot of full frame Harrier shots and some where I had gone right back out to 75mm and I still haven't got the whole aircraft in shot. Looking at a 2003 Harrier display video I took from Shoreham there is 1 touch n go and 1 hover touch n go in that single display.
When I look at photographs on this website I am always interested in viewing the EXIF data to see what they were taken with and how much they have been cropped and it seems that unless you have a very expensive long lens you may as well knock taking shots of fast jets on the head.
I can afford 1 more airshow this year, cost and travel is no issue so I have a lot to choose from, but from a photographic point of view I am now deciding between Shoreham or the Victory Show. People want different things from airshows. For me I like to come away and look at photographs, photography is my hobby and I am really trying hard to improve my shots and get some I am happy with, I have only ever taken 1 decent jet shot in the last 4 years and that was a Typhoon taking off from Farnborough. This year I thought my answer would be to hire an L lens for Yeovilton Photocall. Even with 400mm to play with the Hawks were too high, the Gripen was high, the Typhoons were high and so was the ALCA, if that wasn't bad enough you're shooting into the sun, so even if you do get a lovely full framer it's probably not going to be any good anyway.
I'm sure it wouldn't cost much to have a volunteer on the gates at airshows and to quickly ask people what their main goal of the day was as I would be interested to see the percentage of people who visit airshows from a photographic point of view. Of course then you do need the photographers to pay to come in to achieve that
I've only ever freeloaded a couple of times and this was actually due to serious issues getting into the venue in the first place. I am starting to see the appeal now though. The real wow shots from Yeovilton this year came from outside. I'm sorry but I don't want to pay £20 to take photographs of a hazy blob that vaguely looks like a Gripen and I can order any lens I like, heck even a 1200mm but it's not going to change the position of the sun!!
When I want to watch an airshow with my own eyeballs and enjoy simply watching it I have no problem whatsoever paying and queuing and I don't care where they display from but as long as I am attending airshows from a photographic point of view then I am going to go to the most suitable place where I can achieve decent shots be that outside or in or not at all. I used to do 5 or 6 airshows a year, now I am down to 1 or 2 and my criteria has gone from "what's there" to "can I get a good shot of it".
Sorry for waffling on, that's more my 100 pounds worth than a tuppence
Having taken up going to airshows again from 2009 I can say that there have only been a few airshows I have been to where I can achieve some decent photographs with my 75-300mm lens. Incidentally, when buying my kit I was told by several people that 300mm is plenty for airshows. Shoreham, Old Warden and a couple of small Wings & Wheels events provide excellent viewing and "low" aircraft that are much closer than 230m away from the crowd line. I have always struggled to get nice shots (from mainly jets) from RIAT, Duxford, Farnborough, Bournemouth and Yeovilton without subjecting them to a heavy crop and lots of sharpening and to be honest they all look hideous anyway.
Looking back at some old airshow photo's I have taken from the late 90's and 00's at Shoreham I have a lot of full frame Harrier shots and some where I had gone right back out to 75mm and I still haven't got the whole aircraft in shot. Looking at a 2003 Harrier display video I took from Shoreham there is 1 touch n go and 1 hover touch n go in that single display.
When I look at photographs on this website I am always interested in viewing the EXIF data to see what they were taken with and how much they have been cropped and it seems that unless you have a very expensive long lens you may as well knock taking shots of fast jets on the head.
I can afford 1 more airshow this year, cost and travel is no issue so I have a lot to choose from, but from a photographic point of view I am now deciding between Shoreham or the Victory Show. People want different things from airshows. For me I like to come away and look at photographs, photography is my hobby and I am really trying hard to improve my shots and get some I am happy with, I have only ever taken 1 decent jet shot in the last 4 years and that was a Typhoon taking off from Farnborough. This year I thought my answer would be to hire an L lens for Yeovilton Photocall. Even with 400mm to play with the Hawks were too high, the Gripen was high, the Typhoons were high and so was the ALCA, if that wasn't bad enough you're shooting into the sun, so even if you do get a lovely full framer it's probably not going to be any good anyway.
I'm sure it wouldn't cost much to have a volunteer on the gates at airshows and to quickly ask people what their main goal of the day was as I would be interested to see the percentage of people who visit airshows from a photographic point of view. Of course then you do need the photographers to pay to come in to achieve that
I've only ever freeloaded a couple of times and this was actually due to serious issues getting into the venue in the first place. I am starting to see the appeal now though. The real wow shots from Yeovilton this year came from outside. I'm sorry but I don't want to pay £20 to take photographs of a hazy blob that vaguely looks like a Gripen and I can order any lens I like, heck even a 1200mm but it's not going to change the position of the sun!!
When I want to watch an airshow with my own eyeballs and enjoy simply watching it I have no problem whatsoever paying and queuing and I don't care where they display from but as long as I am attending airshows from a photographic point of view then I am going to go to the most suitable place where I can achieve decent shots be that outside or in or not at all. I used to do 5 or 6 airshows a year, now I am down to 1 or 2 and my criteria has gone from "what's there" to "can I get a good shot of it".
Sorry for waffling on, that's more my 100 pounds worth than a tuppence
Last edited by Thumper on Mon 22 Jul 2013, 9:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Display lines and overshoots...
Looking at twitter this morning it seems these regulations don't apply to departures.
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