FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

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AndyBeau
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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by AndyBeau »

DanO1978 wrote:
The reasons for RIAT's decline in attendance terms at least is down to many, many reasons. I'd suggest the following are just some of them, which the new man could do worse than consider...

* Heavy-handed security and resulting queues
* Spiralling cost
* Mediocre and repeat displays year on year
* The spectacle of the "theatre of the air" diminished by red tape and the ever receding display line
* The lack of public space on the crowdline without paying extra for grandstand or enclosure access
* Having to decide in advance on which day to attend
* Unpredictable weather/lack of shelter on the airfield (granted, not much can be done about this)
* Increased fuel and accomodation prices (again, out of RIAT's hands)
* Little variation/innovation in marketing the event


Dan,

I can't see how any of that is a RIAT only problem.

Have you ever had to go through security on a public day at RIAT over the last few years? In my experience the teams have been nothing but polite and the waiting time was minimal. I can't understand why you think having a security check which takes a few minutes puts people from going to the airshow. It's been a part of RIAT for a long time now.

All the other points can equally be applied to the majority of shows across the UK. All air shows are struggling for variety that everyone craves for. That problem is never going to go away but get worse. I'll be honest and say my enthusiasm for aviation and air shows has rapidly declined over the last couple of years. But that's a fact of life.

The bigger shows are going to continue to struggle because of their size and our expectations. The peak has already past us and I can't see how they will survive over the next decade unless some serious thought goes into the overall airshow format (do we need full day flying displays anymore? Quality vs Quantity), the size of the budgets and whether they continue to be held annually. And that doesn't just apply to RIAT but others too. It wouldn't surprise me if we start to see some consolidation of the bigger shows and some of our traditional ones disappearing in the near future. These could be replaced with what the rest of Europe is doing with one off "mega shows" at particular anniversaries.

Mr Armstrong will have a tough job but lets judge him on what he does when he's in the job rather than cut him down before he's even started. I'm sure he did some research before applying for it!

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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by tankbuster81 »

DanO1978 wrote:
tu16 wrote:"Mediocre and repeat displays year on year".... would you like to name names?


One that annually hoovers up a large chunk of the display budget, while displaying somewhere near Carterton springs to mind...


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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by Harlequin67 »

Please play nicely and I won't delete posts.
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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by alpha586 »

DanO1978 wrote:The reasons for RIAT's decline in attendance terms at least is down to many, many reasons. I'd suggest the following are just some of them, which the new man could do worse than consider...

* Heavy-handed security and resulting queues
* Spiralling cost
* Mediocre and repeat displays year on year
* The spectacle of the "theatre of the air" diminished by red tape and the ever receding display line
* The lack of public space on the crowdline without paying extra for grandstand or enclosure access
* Having to decide in advance on which day to attend
* Unpredictable weather/lack of shelter on the airfield (granted, not much can be done about this)
* Increased fuel and accomodation prices (again, out of RIAT's hands)
* Little variation/innovation in marketing the event


*The security is part and parcel of running the show on a USAF base their base their rules
*RIAT can be done on a budget Ive been doing it for years and as a day out is good value!
*The ever decreasing inventory of the modern air force is only going to get worse in the years to come when all we will see at most airshows is several displays by the F35 because everyone will have it we have to make the most of what we have while we still have the variety
*Good point Dan unfortunately little can be done about red tape but perhaps this year they may have got to grips with it a little better, we hope.
*Have to agree with you again I have been saying it for years the amount of space for those not privileged enough to be in one of the myriad of stands and chalets and gardens is becoming a joke! I know they pay for the show and plough so much more money in than standard tickets but its beginning to put people off.
*again agree to a degree if you know where to get tickets you can still get them on the way into the base (londis in lechlade or the petrol station on the A417 for example) but if you're not in the know it is frustrating (I go both days and have done for years so doesn't really bother me)
*Yes shelter is a good thing to have at any open air event but not exactly conducive to watching air displays, unless you are planning on putting up loads of greenhouses around the base??
*Another valid point sir but again out of RIATs hands
*They tried a different tactic last year and got crucified for it so I wouldn't be surprised if they went back to basics a bit this year I guess its all about knowing your audience and aiming the right ads at the right people.
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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by Stagger2 »

Without invoking riotous animal cruelty campaigners or a Jehad, I would like to consider the adage of 'skinning a cat' & secondly 'Mohammed-vs-mountain'. :hide:
If the MAA state the runway is too close for touch & go displays, just move the runway over! Oh, hang-on, if we don't have 400 aircraft in the static anymore so let's move the Crowd-line south by the required distance. Use the E. & W. dispersals for static, put the Hospitality south of the tower & project live images onto the wall. (they're that persisted, they'll never notice!) the displays can then return to a well defined northern r/w edge or taxiway & I don't have to go to Cirencester or Specsavers to see them!
Additional bonus is... the distance to a safe area can be found for 'flares displays' & we have a million (slightly soiled) second-hand sandbags to build a protective blast-bund with, well...H&S. aside they're not loading 'Grand-Slam' bombs are they? :wall:
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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by aviodromefriend »

alpha586 wrote:
DanO1978 wrote:* Unpredictable weather/lack of shelter on the airfield (granted, not much can be done about this)

*Yes shelter is a good thing to have at any open air event but not exactly conducive to watching air displays, unless you are planning on putting up loads of greenhouses around the base??
There were some structures to provide shade at last year's service stations, and when I walked past them, they all seemed quite popular. For sure, these can also provide shelter against rain if the weather isn't as good as last year.
A weather forecast is a forecast and just that

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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by AlexC »

Stagger2 wrote:Put the Hospitality south of the tower


I like it!
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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by tankbuster81 »

AlexC wrote:
Stagger2 wrote:Put the Hospitality south of the tower


I like it!


Or maybe in one of the Car Parks ,so as they can see where us plebs have to park,thus freeing up on -base parking for folk who like aircraft,and in fact actually look at them ,and know what some of them are.As opposed to being dressed for a gala dinner,eating Cucumber sandwiches ,and glugging down pimms!! :snack:
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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by bennysdad »

I was a regular RIAT attender in the past when you could jump on your motorcycle at some ungodly hour and turn up at the gate to buy a ticket having chosen the best day weather wise or the only day available that fitted in with last minute work schedule changes. When I had to start picking the day in advance to book a ticket I am afraid that I lost the required motivation to attend. If the organisers want to try and balance the attendance figures do it through pricing. Sell advance tickets at a worthwhile discount to attract those able to plan such things in advance and hike the gate prices on the popular days. If Saturday attendances are way ahead of Sunday then push up the Saturday prices and nudge down the Sunday.

Ticketing aside I would welcome more aviation or military linked traders and wonder again if pricing could be used to encourage this rather than the cheap perfume stalls or the other non aviation linked traders.

As far as the flying is concerned most of the points raised are out of the organisers control regarding what the health and safety police will allow although I cannot get my head round how forcing someone to move to a spot outwith the control of the organisers and potentially much more dangerous in order to get a decent view of the aircraft is safer. Surely a crowd line under the control of the organisers and in the least risky location in relation to the display axis is safer even if it is closer to the runway than currently permitted. If the view from there is better than you get from the naughty field people will go there.

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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by jingernut »

Timmy! wrote:My other real issue with RIAT is price, this year i was looking at the possibility of taking my 4 year old son to RIAT (he loves anything train or plane and it also appeases the other half!) so as you do i looked at the cost and justifying it to my dearly beloved. So £315 for me and said child to go mach 3, £100+ for camping for the week camping, £70 for travel there and back, probably in the region of £50 for food and drink for the two of us plus spending pennies of say £60, so that means i have to justify £595 for a holiday for two in the UK for a week. Hmmm i`m struggling to justify that to myself now especially when i see TV adverts for i think it was Haven or some such concerntration camp where i can take myself the kids and other half for torture, i mean holiday for a week for not much more than that! So as a result i am no longer entertaining the idea, if i can`t jutify it to myself there`s certainly no way in hell i`ll get it past my good lady and i just wonder how many people are in the same boat?


There are many things that people want to do and can't afford, so you know what, they don't get to do them, fact of life.

Why not just go for one day, why put aside £60 for spending... if money is tight then budget better. Why does it have to be the most expensive package they offer?

It's not RIATs fault you can't afford to go.

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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by vulcan57 »

jingernut wrote: There are many things that people want to do and can't afford, so you know what, they don't get to do them, fact of life. Why not just go for one day, why put aside £60 for spending... if money is tight then budget better. Why does it have to be the most expensive package they offer? It's not RIATs fault you can't afford to go.


Have to agree, I'm coming from Ireland for the sat and sun and my total costs for the weekend, including tickets with sat in the viewing village, flights and three nights B&B along with spending will be in the region of £475-£500. You just have to budget well and have a good time.

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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by darkman »

vulcan57 wrote:
jingernut wrote: There are many things that people want to do and can't afford, so you know what, they don't get to do them, fact of life. Why not just go for one day, why put aside £60 for spending... if money is tight then budget better. Why does it have to be the most expensive package they offer? It's not RIATs fault you can't afford to go.


Have to agree, I'm coming from Ireland for the sat and sun and my total costs for the weekend, including tickets with sat in the viewing village, flights and three nights B&B along with spending will be in the region of £475-£500. You just have to budget well and have a good time.


Similar to me for friday to Monday trip
Flights 100
Accommodation 90
Car hire/fuel 120
Tickets 70
Food 80
Spending money 60

But that gets me to Cosford, RIAT, legends and hendon or back to Duxford. The bonus is I get two air shows for a fraction of the cost of doing two on differing weekends.
Next year I think I might try a foreign show for a change.

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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by AlexC »

DanO1978 wrote:Never understood why people need "spending money" at an airshow.

Take your food from home. Save a fortune. Be healthier.

Buy any model kits/books/assorted tat online for a fraction of the cost, and without having to lug it around all day.

Avoid the official programme and checklist like the plague. Substandard images and page after page of adverts and press releases masquerading as articles. Another £10 saved.

RIAT, like all shows, can be as cheap or as expensive as YOU want to make it.


That pretty much describes my regular RIAT trip. Don't usually have time to eat anyway, will most likely have a bite (food from home) on the way back home at the riverside car park in Lechlade or in Savernake Forest. As far as the official programme is concerned it's way too expensive, as is the checklist.
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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by Skyflash »

Is the point about food expenses not that those of us who are several hunderd miles from home, for the best part of a week, CAN'T just take food from home onto the base?

My food budget for a Mach 3 RIAT week is comfortably over £100, especially once you start factoring in evening meals. And that includes doing my damndest to avoid the overpriced deep-fried botulism on offer from the food outlets within Fairford itself.

The 24hr Tesco in Swindon does a fine job of keeping me in sandwiches etc during a RIAT! :grin:
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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by alpha586 »

I think all this serves to prove that RIAT can be done on a budget if you can afford all the overpriced food on offer and like looking through the myriad of stalls selling lets face it a load of stuff you probably wouldn't look at twice if out shopping then you are well catered for. If like me you want to do RIAT on a budget it is easilly possible.
I buy my ticket at the super earlybird price book the campsite away from all the theiving farmers who charge a fortune, take food in with me prepared the night before, steer clear of the trinkets and souvenirs on offer (and wierdly the double glazing and garden furniture? ??) then you can easily keep your wallet in your pocket for the majority of the week total budget for the week including fuel campsite food drink tickets?? About £200
Last edited by alpha586 on Sun 20 Apr 2014, 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by TYPHOON3 »

If you are on a tight budget,just do the one day in the show and the other from a campsite.Park and view or from your tent if you are camping. You can now get coolboxes (non electric) that keeps food and drinks cold for up to five days.That way you wouldn't need to purchase any food and drink in the show even if you did both days.Although a bit expensive I would certainly recommend this coolbox.

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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by vulcan558 »

DanO1978 wrote:Never understood why people need "spending money" at an airshow.

Take your food from home. Save a fortune. Be healthier.

Buy any model kits/books/assorted tat online for a fraction of the cost, and without having to lug it around all day.

Avoid the official programme and checklist like the plague. Substandard images and page after page of adverts and press releases masquerading as articles. Another £10 saved.

RIAT, like all shows, can be as cheap or as expensive as YOU want to make it.

£10 For the best seat in the house being at Rhymes farm, factor in £25 for petrol for the 100 mile round trip,
get all my food from Asda, cook a good breakfast out side the car with a camping stove. also have a full cool-box in the car full of wonderful goodies to eat.
the joy of Rhymes is having the car with you and the Airshow is over the top or around the back of you, I go to see a Airshow and that's what I get,not ripped off.

Not humping miles with kit. or paying a fortune to sit in a mach3 cattle pen all week.

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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by alpha586 »

vulcan558 wrote:
DanO1978 wrote:Never understood why people need "spending money" at an airshow.

Take your food from home. Save a fortune. Be healthier.

Buy any model kits/books/assorted tat online for a fraction of the cost, and without having to lug it around all day.

Avoid the official programme and checklist like the plague. Substandard images and page after page of adverts and press releases masquerading as articles. Another £10 saved.

RIAT, like all shows, can be as cheap or as expensive as YOU want to make it.

£10 For the best seat in the house being at Rhymes farm, factor in £25 for petrol for the 100 mile round trip,
get all my food from Asda, cook a good breakfast out side the car with a camping stove. also have a full cool-box in the car full of wonderful goodies to eat.
the joy of Rhymes is having the car with you and the Airshow is over the top or around the back of you, I go to see a Airshow and that's what I get,not ripped off.

Not humping miles with kit. or paying a fortune to sit in a mach3 cattle pen all week.


If you want to be a freeloader and not support the charity thats your business but I thought this thread was about how to fix what is wrong with RIAT in the last few years if you dont pay to go in you have no real say in the running of the show!!
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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by AlexC »

I should probably add that I only visit on one of the airshow days nowadays, instead of Friday to Moday as I used to. The show as it is now does not warrant more then one day as far as I'm concerned, the glory days having long gone. And I never stop at any of the stalls except perhaps a quick look at the books on offer.
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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by boff180 »

For those of us that don't camp (out of choice, I'd be beaten up with my snoring), RIAT is extremely expensive as all local hotels cotton on to the show and significantly put their prices up, especially the premier inn nearby.

I get food for the days on base from ASDA as I have a fridge in my hotel room and eat in the hotel at night. However, last year including fuel and Mach 3 membership, RIAT cost me £1000.

Andy

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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by Brevet Cable »

TYPHOON3 wrote:.........Although a bit expensive I would certainly recommend this coolbox.
Has a link been omitted / deleted from this post ??
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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by vulcan57 »

boff180 wrote:For those of us that don't camp (out of choice, I'd be beaten up with my snoring), RIAT is extremely expensive as all local hotels cotton on to the show and significantly put their prices up, especially the premier inn nearby. I get food for the days on base from ASDA as I have a fridge in my hotel room and eat in the hotel at night. However, last year including fuel and Mach 3 membership, RIAT cost me £1000. Andy
Yet again, why hotels? B&Bs are way cheaper. The one we use is £45 per night for single, £60 per night for twin/double.

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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by boff180 »

I don't have to worry about sourcing food at night and there is a bar :grin:

That and I don't cause disturbance leaving the hotel very early to go and get my raffle ticket or a decent parking space on show days.

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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by TYPHOON3 »

Brevet Cable wrote:
TYPHOON3 wrote:.........Although a bit expensive I would certainly recommend this coolbox.
Has a link been omitted / deleted from this post ??

No, nothing has been deleted from this post nor did I post any link.Would you like more details about the coolbox?

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Re: FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

Post by Tommy »

Just a thought:

I don't want to start a new thread, and this is exclusively my own opinion but how about something like this "FAO Enthusiasts - How to solve a problem like RIAT"

1. Don't immediately and irrationally see it as a "problem" in the first place.

2. Criticise positively and/or negatively where it is due (looking at the 2012 & 2013 threads show that by and large this already happens).

3. Present a logical argument as to why you may not be happy with an element of the show.

4. Recognise that your opinion is nothing more than that.

5. If you deeply and repeatedly criticise something, try present a possible (logical) alternative.

5.5 ...or present a pink wafer. Either is acceptable. :pinkwafer:

6. Acknowledge that "X doesn't do anything for me" has little or no weight or constructive benefit to anyone, least of all RIAT. So... Think about those poor X's.

7. Recognise that stuff goes on behind the scenes that you don't know about, nor will ever likely know about. :ninja:

8. Don't prejudge the new guy. Allow him a chance to prove his worthiness (or lack of) of the position.

9. Don't happy-clap. If DBH cock something up, they should know about it, but not unduly. Perhaps a liberal application of emojis may assist in this regard.

10. DBH, the volunteers and everyone else here are human beings. Treat them as such, though do take into account Mad Dan's (and Caper's)...erm... Prowess and inhuman amount of toilet puns (speaking of which, bit late with it this year aren't you?)? :sick: :hide:

11. If there are no German MiG 29s at either Waddo or RIAT this year, it is certified that both events are (cue the Comic Book Guy...) the worst airshows ever. :cuppa: