FAO Andy Armstrong - How To Solve A Problem Like RIAT...

[Abingdonman]

The consensus seems to be that one of the main complaints was that the flying was too distant for the paying public,thats out of the organisers hands .....thats something that probably no-one in the universe will be able to change!
we all would like specific aircraft to display,for me I would have liked to have seen the Viggen,an F15 or F18...but I would go again with exactly the same flying programme,I thought it was overall a fantastic flying display,although I did go on the sunny day and watched from the fence!
As for other entertainment at the show,maybe it wouldnt be my kind of fun,but I certainly couldnt imagine an airshow without it,it makes it all a great all round family day out
....I could live with just an aircraft related show myself,but I would be travelling alone....and feel certain the airshow scene would die very quickly without the other entertainment!

[Brevet Cable]

The enthusiasts will attend regardless of weather for the whole 6 days.The same cannot be said for Mr &Mrs Smith with 2.4 children.If the weather is bad they will just simply take the kids to the cinema

And that raises another change for the worse that they've introduced in recent years -- the decision to stop selling tickets 'at the gate'.
Their argument would be that you can still purchase them on-line on the day , but the problems with that are :
1. The on-line option is only available up until a certain time ( early hours of the morning )
2. Not everyone has a computer at home.
3. Of those who do have a computer at home , many don't have a printer.

As such , they've effectively alienated the large number of people who would leave it until either the night before or the morning of the show - when they've seen what the weather's like - before deciding whether or not to attend.
As the attendance figures have been dropping year-on-year ( RIAT's website used to have the details from previous years , but it's been deleted off there ) this would seem to be a counter-productive policy.

[strangelookingalien]

I saw the attendance figure for the Sunday in 2012. To say it was pitiful would be an understatement.

Day specific, and pre-sales only were seemingly brought in as knee-jerk responses to the cancellation in 2008. I'd imagine thousands would turn up on spec if the weather was good on a given day. Refusing them entry is insane.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment: I think we all agree 2012 was one of the best recent RIATs. Since they did so much right (according to us!); why was the attendence so poor?

[Adie1980]

I saw the attendance figure for the Sunday in 2012. To say it was pitiful would be an understatement.

Day specific, and pre-sales only were seemingly brought in as knee-jerk responses to the cancellation in 2008. I'd imagine thousands would turn up on spec if the weather was good on a given day. Refusing them entry is insane.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment: I think we all agree 2012 was one of the best recent RIATs. Since they did so much right (according to us!); why was the attendence so poor?

Everyone went on the Saturday!

I can only afford to do 1 day over a RIAT weekend, I would always choose the Saturday as i'm normally back at work on the Monday and don't want to be sat in traffic and driving home Sunday night.
I'm sure there are plenty of others like me which possibly contributes to a (traditionally) smaller Sunday attendance?!

[Mantog]

The consensus seems to be that one of the main complaints was that the flying was too distant for the paying public,thats out of the organisers hands .....thats something that probably no-one in the universe will be able to change!
we all would like specific aircraft to display,for me I would have liked to have seen the Viggen,an F15 or F18...but I would go again with exactly the same flying programme,I thought it was overall a fantastic flying display,although I did go on the sunny day and watched from the fence!
As for other entertainment at the show,maybe it wouldnt be my kind of fun,but I certainly couldnt imagine an airshow without it,it makes it all a great all round family day out
....I could live with just an aircraft related show myself,but I would be travelling alone....and feel certain the airshow scene would die very quickly without the other entertainment!

Hi

I went to RIAT 2012 but didn't go last year. Was the display further away from the crowd last year than it was in 2012?

[Russ]

Yes. And it's a bloody nuisance, but not RIAT's fault.

The knock effect is that it will force more people outside and that will be detrimental to the future of the show.

[carlbotten1971]

Yes i would say the ever distant display line is certainly out of DBH control.Silly rules in the name of health and safety and also by doing this surely whilst they are ensuring safety for those inside the showground are they not putting the naughty fields at more risk by this.As for for the issue of security checks.Yes i do find them a little irksome at times and one or two intersting comments that came across in the lines and back at the campsite was "This is daft there was none of this at Waddington".Also if they have to have these security checks would the lines not move quicker by having walk through metal detecters rather than those silly hand held ones frisking everybody and holding up the lines

[boff180]

Hi

I went to RIAT 2012 but didn't go last year. Was the display further away from the crowd last year than it was in 2012?

Yes, officially the display line was 20 metres further back than in 2012. However this was made worse by certain acts (the Belgian F-16 and Italian Typhoon as examples) deciding to ignore the minimum limit and fly their display much further away than the crowd line.

Andy

[TYPHOON3]

If RIAT want more people to attend,reduce the prices.What they are now charging is no longer justified by whats on offer anyway.As Dano has already said, scrap tickets only and IF the weather is ok maybe more people would attend on the Sunday and pay on the gate.Tin hat now on ready to be attacked by the die hard RIAT fans who see no wrong!

[Macc]

If RIAT want more people to attend,reduce the prices.What they are now charging is no longer justified by whats on offer anyway.As Dano has already said, scrap tickets only and IF the weather is ok maybe more people would attend on the Sunday and pay on the gate.Tin hat now on ready to be attacked by the die hard RIAT fans who see no wrong!

After RIAT 2008 where they survived primarily due to insurance I believe, I don't think banking on the weather is the best idea because unless they still have a good insurance policy, one bad year and RIAT will be no more.

[TYPHOON3]

If RIAT want more people to attend,reduce the prices.What they are now charging is no longer justified by whats on offer anyway.As Dano has already said, scrap tickets only and IF the weather is ok maybe more people would attend on the Sunday and pay on the gate.Tin hat now on ready to be attacked by the die hard RIAT fans who see no wrong!

After RIAT 2008 where they survived primarily due to insurance I believe, I don't think banking on the weather is the best idea because unless they still have a good insurance policy, one bad year and RIAT will be no more.

Haven't steps now been taken to ensure no repeat of 2008?What I meant was IF(and that is a big IF)the weather was ok on the Sunday(or Saturday)and you could pay on the gate and dropped the prices you almost certainly would get more people to attend.As with any outdoor event you can never 'bank' on the weather.

[boff180]

Now I may be completely wrong on this as my memory is currently full of law and surveyor procedures ready for next week but I can recall the following being said at the FRIAT Forum in 2013....

... with the introduction of e-tickets they are eventually moving towards being able to purchase them on show day, to the point you can buy your e-ticket on your phone in the security queue, providing the show hasn't sold out.

My memory may be playing tricks on me though.

[ianf]

Andy I think you mind may be only playing tricks on the year. I thought I heard them say it in this years forum. Buying a ticket at the gate is sadly becoming a thing of the past at a lot of events. something I don't agree with but a sign of the times.

This entire thread is either out of date. or not relevant. The new man hasn't got into the job yet, so what he wants to do or not do won't be decided for some time to come. The title of the thread is also an assumption not a fact. Yes RIAT has not been perfect and has got things wrong. But to suggest it is all wrong is also wrong. Patience is what is needed at the moment. I had quite a few concerns over last years show. So I went to this years forum and asked some questions. Most but not all were answered to my satisfaction, a few I will watch what happens this year. But the one overwhelming impression I got was AIRCRAFT was the prime reason for the show. and the team left after Tim's retirement will ensure it continues to be so. How many shows actually listen to the public to the extent of Riat?

Typhoon I can be described as a die hard, but I agree the price is something they do need to look at.

[mushbuster]

I saw the attendance figure for the Sunday in 2012. To say it was pitiful would be an understatement.

Day specific, and pre-sales only were seemingly brought in as knee-jerk responses to the cancellation in 2008. I'd imagine thousands would turn up on spec if the weather was good on a given day. Refusing them entry is insane.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment: I think we all agree 2012 was one of the best recent RIATs. Since they did so much right (according to us!); why was the attendence so poor?

The reasons for RIAT's decline in attendance terms at least is down to many, many reasons. I'd suggest the following are just some of them, which the new man could do worse than consider...

* Heavy-handed security and resulting queues
* Spiralling cost
* Mediocre and repeat displays year on year
* The spectacle of the "theatre of the air" diminished by red tape and the ever receding display line
* The lack of public space on the crowdline without paying extra for grandstand or enclosure access
* Having to decide in advance on which day to attend
* Unpredictable weather/lack of shelter on the airfield (granted, not much can be done about this)
* Increased fuel and accomodation prices (again, out of RIAT's hands)
* Little variation/innovation in marketing the event

Dan, I may be confused but I thought the advance sales were to try to spread the attendance over boths days as the Saturday attendance exceeded the allowable (H&S and police imposed) capacity limit. I also thought that 2013 was in fact a sell out well in advance of Saturday gates opening and effectively a sell out on Sunday. I think the reason why the attendances are down now compared with the 80s and 90s was because they had to be and this was one reason why the show is now a three day event - to up the number of paying punters. As for your points
* Heavy-handed security and resulting queues, not what I experienced at 0900 on Sat off the red route
* Spiralling cost, not for me, it was pretty much the same cost for the last three shows
* Mediocre and repeat displays year on year. Can't disagree here, F-16 displays get a little dull having seen at least one at every show since 1985
* The spectacle of the "theatre of the air" diminished by red tape and the ever receding display line Agreed but this is down to H&S BS mostly
* The lack of public space on the crowdline without paying extra for grandstand or enclosure access, not my experience but it depends on whether someone is sitting exactly where you wanted to be or not
* Having to decide in advance on which day to attend Agreed
* Unpredictable weather/lack of shelter on the airfield (granted, not much can be done about this) If Tim Prince was able to do anything about this he would have sorted it out in the 70s
* Increased fuel and accomodation prices (again, out of RIAT's hands) Not that relevant this year as fuel is quite a bit cheaper this year than last (and I live local to the base)
* Little variation/innovation in marketing the event, Maybe, but despite the criticism on here 99% of people don't really care - they just see the date and act accordingly

[tankbuster81]

The lack of space to general folk, enthusiasts and families is a valid one. your either forced to sit at one far end or the other,or to far back from the display line due to the ridiculous amounts of Corporate hosting,tented areas.And in my experience the majority in those ares are there for a jolly,with no interest at all in the aircraft in front of them.Apart from FRIAT ,most of these could be pushed to one end of the airfield or the other..

[Timmy!]

I have a few issues with RIAT i don`t know whether or not i`m tainted but my first is aircraft i`ve done 4 RIAT`s since i got into aviation photography in 2006 and i think the quality and quantity of aircraft has dropped. I understand that alot of nations are still cash strapped and air arms abroad as here suffering budget cuts and reductions in strength but i do walk round at times thinking there is nothing that really leaps out at me which is poor considering this is apparently the big airshow for the UK.

Now its not just RIAT i have this feeling other shows such as Waddington i think this some years as well before anyone jumps on my back saying i`m RIAT bashing. I just think i remember RAF friends and families days of the 90`s at St Mawgan and Kinloss and the participation and support not just RAF but foreign as well seemed far better than these days which makes me wonder at times why bother?

My other real issue with RIAT is price, this year i was looking at the possibility of taking my 4 year old son to RIAT (he loves anything train or plane and it also appeases the other half!) so as you do i looked at the cost and justifying it to my dearly beloved. So £315 for me and said child to go mach 3, £100+ for camping for the week camping, £70 for travel there and back, probably in the region of £50 for food and drink for the two of us plus spending pennies of say £60, so that means i have to justify £595 for a holiday for two in the UK for a week. Hmmm i`m struggling to justify that to myself now especially when i see TV adverts for i think it was Haven or some such concerntration camp where i can take myself the kids and other half for torture, i mean holiday for a week for not much more than that! So as a result i am no longer entertaining the idea, if i can`t jutify it to myself there`s certainly no way in hell i`ll get it past my good lady and i just wonder how many people are in the same boat?

Now i know that the guys and girls at DBH do not have the ability to control all of the costs listed above but maybe an idea would be to address one or two of these. The price has been creeping up and up every year and i think maybe they can look at this because i do think if it continues i will not only put off mach ticket buyers but also the standard day ticket buyers as well. If the price of a ticket for mach at least can`t be reduced how about looking at another way of helping out mach holders financially, perhaps they could look at getting hold of a field or two to be used as an exclusive campsite for mach ticket holders to use. This could be offered at a reduced rate to other campsites in the area so you could almost buy a package deal ie Mach ticket plus accommodation ie campsite for £280.

Just an idea it may not be possible at all but hey you don`t know unless you ask.

[john001]

I don't really get this - you are moaning about the cost but are going for the Mach 3 product. Its 91 quid for three days for you and your child if you don't go Mach 3 - sit on the grass. It s fair enough not begin able to justify five hundred plus but you do have options which you are not choosing. You just have to do what most of us of do and pay what you can afford - I would love Mach 3 - but can't afford it - still going though and the early tickets were 60 odd quid - pretty good for three days entertainment.
As for the aircraft no mil shows in the Uk are as good as they used to be - the variety and numbers don't exist.

[iainpeden]

That rare event - a post and later comments by Dan that I agree with.

A slightly tongue in cheek answer is "reinvent the Cold War". Ultimately it's down to the numbers of a/c available and the need for air forces and governments to show off their wares to justify the huge amounts of taxpayers' money spent.

I loved the days of lines of Herc's, KC-135's and Phantoms and all the rare stuff which appeared in the Berkshire and later Gloucestershire skies. We're just not in that scenaerio now and must be thankful for what we get.

"Reinvent the Cold war" - hmmm, isn't Putin trying to do that?

[tu16]

"Mediocre and repeat displays year on year".... would you like to name names?

Perhaps you think RIAT should follow the Zeltweg, Radom & Kecskemet examples and only be held every other year, and be the only military display in the country?

[AndyBeau]

The reasons for RIAT's decline in attendance terms at least is down to many, many reasons. I'd suggest the following are just some of them, which the new man could do worse than consider...

* Heavy-handed security and resulting queues
* Spiralling cost
* Mediocre and repeat displays year on year
* The spectacle of the "theatre of the air" diminished by red tape and the ever receding display line
* The lack of public space on the crowdline without paying extra for grandstand or enclosure access
* Having to decide in advance on which day to attend
* Unpredictable weather/lack of shelter on the airfield (granted, not much can be done about this)
* Increased fuel and accomodation prices (again, out of RIAT's hands)
* Little variation/innovation in marketing the event

Dan,

I can't see how any of that is a RIAT only problem.

Have you ever had to go through security on a public day at RIAT over the last few years? In my experience the teams have been nothing but polite and the waiting time was minimal. I can't understand why you think having a security check which takes a few minutes puts people from going to the airshow. It's been a part of RIAT for a long time now.

All the other points can equally be applied to the majority of shows across the UK. All air shows are struggling for variety that everyone craves for. That problem is never going to go away but get worse. I'll be honest and say my enthusiasm for aviation and air shows has rapidly declined over the last couple of years. But that's a fact of life.

The bigger shows are going to continue to struggle because of their size and our expectations. The peak has already past us and I can't see how they will survive over the next decade unless some serious thought goes into the overall airshow format (do we need full day flying displays anymore? Quality vs Quantity), the size of the budgets and whether they continue to be held annually. And that doesn't just apply to RIAT but others too. It wouldn't surprise me if we start to see some consolidation of the bigger shows and some of our traditional ones disappearing in the near future. These could be replaced with what the rest of Europe is doing with one off "mega shows" at particular anniversaries.

Mr Armstrong will have a tough job but lets judge him on what he does when he's in the job rather than cut him down before he's even started. I'm sure he did some research before applying for it!

[tankbuster81]

"Mediocre and repeat displays year on year".... would you like to name names?

One that annually hoovers up a large chunk of the display budget, while displaying somewhere near Carterton springs to mind...

[Harlequin67]

Please play nicely and I won't delete posts.

[alpha586]

The reasons for RIAT's decline in attendance terms at least is down to many, many reasons. I'd suggest the following are just some of them, which the new man could do worse than consider...

* Heavy-handed security and resulting queues
* Spiralling cost
* Mediocre and repeat displays year on year
* The spectacle of the "theatre of the air" diminished by red tape and the ever receding display line
* The lack of public space on the crowdline without paying extra for grandstand or enclosure access
* Having to decide in advance on which day to attend
* Unpredictable weather/lack of shelter on the airfield (granted, not much can be done about this)
* Increased fuel and accomodation prices (again, out of RIAT's hands)
* Little variation/innovation in marketing the event

*The security is part and parcel of running the show on a USAF base their base their rules
*RIAT can be done on a budget Ive been doing it for years and as a day out is good value!
*The ever decreasing inventory of the modern air force is only going to get worse in the years to come when all we will see at most airshows is several displays by the F35 because everyone will have it we have to make the most of what we have while we still have the variety
*Good point Dan unfortunately little can be done about red tape but perhaps this year they may have got to grips with it a little better, we hope.
*Have to agree with you again I have been saying it for years the amount of space for those not privileged enough to be in one of the myriad of stands and chalets and gardens is becoming a joke! I know they pay for the show and plough so much more money in than standard tickets but its beginning to put people off.
*again agree to a degree if you know where to get tickets you can still get them on the way into the base (londis in lechlade or the petrol station on the A417 for example) but if you're not in the know it is frustrating (I go both days and have done for years so doesn't really bother me)
*Yes shelter is a good thing to have at any open air event but not exactly conducive to watching air displays, unless you are planning on putting up loads of greenhouses around the base??
*Another valid point sir but again out of RIATs hands
*They tried a different tactic last year and got crucified for it so I wouldn't be surprised if they went back to basics a bit this year I guess its all about knowing your audience and aiming the right ads at the right people.

[Stagger2]

Without invoking riotous animal cruelty campaigners or a Jehad, I would like to consider the adage of 'skinning a cat' & secondly 'Mohammed-vs-mountain'.
If the MAA state the runway is too close for touch & go displays, just move the runway over! Oh, hang-on, if we don't have 400 aircraft in the static anymore so let's move the Crowd-line south by the required distance. Use the E. & W. dispersals for static, put the Hospitality south of the tower & project live images onto the wall. (they're that persisted, they'll never notice!) the displays can then return to a well defined northern r/w edge or taxiway & I don't have to go to Cirencester or Specsavers to see them!
Additional bonus is... the distance to a safe area can be found for 'flares displays' & we have a million (slightly soiled) second-hand sandbags to build a protective blast-bund with, well...H&S. aside they're not loading 'Grand-Slam' bombs are they?
Never accept No!...Lateral thinking lovely boys, carry on!

[aviodromefriend]

* Unpredictable weather/lack of shelter on the airfield (granted, not much can be done about this)

*Yes shelter is a good thing to have at any open air event but not exactly conducive to watching air displays, unless you are planning on putting up loads of greenhouses around the base??

There were some structures to provide shade at last year's service stations, and when I walked past them, they all seemed quite popular. For sure, these can also provide shelter against rain if the weather isn't as good as last year.