Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for 2018

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st24
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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by st24 »

PanaviaTornado wrote:Critical failure on a single engined jet post takeoff (Vlof given runway arrestor gear) using 09 could result in one almighty mess given the crowds that congregate there. Surprised it took this long tbh!

Not totally comparable, but as an example of how things can go rapidly wrong at anytime, the F-16D crash at Albacete: http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article4919.html

Naturally any airshow has risks. An F-16 turning towards the crowd at 400kn+ having a critical failure could result in a large mess too, but that is just a given risk at an airshow, you can remove the road spotters and reduce the risk(s) without the spectacle taking a hit.

.

Are you available for kids parties?? :question:
You caaan't trust the system... Maaan!

jayne_morris
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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by jayne_morris »

this thread has just become bizarre

if they opened a viewing area in a farmers field with a stack of pallets, a porta loo and a burger van surely it would be counter intuitive, why would anybody spend £500 for a seat in the Lightning Pavilion when you can pay £5.00 to stand on a pallet in a field

I think we have more chance of a Vulcan in the flying display than we have of this off base viewing area happening
Last edited by jayne_morris on Wed 27 Jun 2018, 9:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

IATthenRIAT
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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by IATthenRIAT »

Firstly - I am a newcomer on here and never used the site before, I am however a long term aviation enthusiast of over 55 years, in my past I attended every IAT - RIAT from the mid 80s all the way through to 2003, and spent a fair amount at these shows.

My comments where based on the minority 1-2000 people who for what ever reason (and its there business not ours) can not go into the actual show, of course people will try to push there look and get a freeby or similar (who doesn't) take that option away and thease people will be looking for a next best alternative on the show days that does not include going into the show.

Hence an idea like I posted.

jayne_morris
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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by jayne_morris »

as a matter of interest which campsite do you go to on a show day where you can arrive at 10.00 am has no cues and is not even 50% full

IATthenRIAT
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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by IATthenRIAT »

jayne_morris wrote:as a matter of interest which campsite do you go to on a show day where you can arrive at 10.00 am has no cues and is not even 50% full


Townsend Farm last year on the sat, arrived just gone 10am no cues to get in and the fields there where less than 50% full there was stacks of space it was a really nice experience just like a camping experience would be, and the display shot from there where Fantastic, I only walked down to get a few quick shots of the flightlines and the static just for my tail number logging reference.

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speedbird2639
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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by speedbird2639 »

* queues
* were

Aside from the fact you don't appear to have spent any of your 55+ years learning how to spell what lens were you using to read the registrations of aircraft parked up to 10,000 feet away from you vantage point obstructing a public footpath under the Eastern approach?

borismorris
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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by borismorris »

I've been watching this thread develop with interest.

My thoughts are as follows.

Charging people to use a public footpath:-
Good luck with that. Impossible to enforce.
Think about what you're actually saying here.. what about those folk who are simply "passing through"?.
Best option would be a temporary closure. Prevent people accessing the area full stop. The farmer could even decide to do some muck spreading perhaps- "just incase you's thinking of trespassing on moi land"

"There was around 2000 people on Whelford Road last year". - On Friday last year I was way out West. After strolling around the static I plonked myself down at the fenceline without any trouble. Definitely less than 1000 people within a 50m radius of me.

Affordability:-
Guys, I am seriously skint. But I've sacrificed doing other things to enable me to be at RIAT for the weekend again this year.
If you want to go you find a way.

IATthenRIAT
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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by IATthenRIAT »

speedbird2639 wrote:* queues
* were

Aside from the fact you don't appear to have spent any of your 55+ years learning how to spell what lens were you using to read the registrations of aircraft parked up to 10,000 feet away from you vantage point obstructing a public footpath under the Eastern approach?


Quit with your spelling nonsence, its not clever its rude and offensive.
I was not needing to read off ever serial/registration I knew each aircrafts location and had a log of what was there.
I was not obstructing a public footpath - I was pressed against the fence.

Next critique .......... :clap:

IATthenRIAT
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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by IATthenRIAT »

borismorris wrote:
"There was around 2000 people on Whelford Road last year". - On Friday last year I was way out West. After strolling around the static I plonked myself down at the fenceline without any trouble. Definitely less than 1000 people within a 50m radius of me.

Affordability:-
Guys, I am seriously skint. But I've sacrificed doing other things to enable me to be at RIAT for the weekend again this year.
If you want to go you find a way.


I didn't do a head count but there was definitely not just "one or two" people there.
Guess you dont have trouble getting there also (have your own car I guess)

borismorris
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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by borismorris »

IATthenRIAT wrote:
borismorris wrote:
"There was around 2000 people on Whelford Road last year". - On Friday last year I was way out West. After strolling around the static I plonked myself down at the fenceline without any trouble. Definitely less than 1000 people within a 50m radius of me.

Affordability:-
Guys, I am seriously skint. But I've sacrificed doing other things to enable me to be at RIAT for the weekend again this year.
If you want to go you find a way.


I didn't do a head count but there was definitely not just "one or two" people there.
Guess you dont have trouble getting there also (have your own car I guess)


I didn't say there was 1 or 2.
But if you have issues with crowds then how is it ok to be amongst the crowd at Whelford road. There was more there last year on the Thursday than on the crowdline up West on the Friday.

Yes I do have a car. Id probably guess its older than 95% of all the cars visiting.
Like I said though, I sacrifice other things. I've given up boozing, going to motorsport meetings and only go to Cosford aside from RIAT.
If you can get to Townsend farm then getting to the airfield is not an issue is it.

IATthenRIAT
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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by IATthenRIAT »

borismorris wrote:
IATthenRIAT wrote:
borismorris wrote:
"There was around 2000 people on Whelford Road last year". - On Friday last year I was way out West. After strolling around the static I plonked myself down at the fenceline without any trouble. Definitely less than 1000 people within a 50m radius of me.

Affordability:-
Guys, I am seriously skint. But I've sacrificed doing other things to enable me to be at RIAT for the weekend again this year.
If you want to go you find a way.


I didn't do a head count but there was definitely not just "one or two" people there.
Guess you dont have trouble getting there also (have your own car I guess)


I didn't say there was 1 or 2.
But if you have issues with crowds then how is it ok to be amongst the crowd at Whelford road. There was more there last year on the Thursday than on the crowdline up West on the Friday.

Yes I do have a car. Id probably guess its older than 95% of all the cars visiting.
Like I said though, I sacrifice other things. I've given up boozing, going to motorsport meetings and only go to Cosford aside from RIAT.
If you can get to Townsend farm then getting to the airfield is not an issue is it.


Townsend was a completely different thing, it was like camping but with the dispaly aircraft going over as a bonus, I didn't mind going down to the display end to stand for just a few moments, that was all the time I needed then I moved on back to the campsite for the rest of the display.

What was wrong with that? I still paid to use the campsite (it was free and I wasn't a "freeloader"

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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by RIAT Air Ops »

verreli wrote:
Wrexham Mackem wrote:Sometimes people need to be protected from themselves, that's what a responsible society does. Within reason of course.


As for event management, within the event boundary and the travel route to the car park RIAT should make every effort to keep people safe, that's partly what you're paying your money for. But where does their responsibility end? I've been in the Co-op in Fairford village buying a few beers when a display team has come over at about 500ft in formation. This is arguably far more dangerous. Do you evacuate that area too for their own safety?


No, we do what we've done for some time and ensure that display participants are briefed on the regulations regarding overflight of, in your example towns, and the FDD & FCC monitor for compliance.

f) Except when necessary for take-off or landing, or except by permission from the competent authority, a VFR flight shall not be flown:
(1)over the congested areas of cities, towns or settlements or over an open-air assembly of persons at a height less than 300 m (1 000 ft) above the highest obstacle within a radius of 600 m from the aircraft;

IATthenRIAT
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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by IATthenRIAT »

RIAT Air Ops wrote:
verreli wrote:
Wrexham Mackem wrote:Sometimes people need to be protected from themselves, that's what a responsible society does. Within reason of course.


As for event management, within the event boundary and the travel route to the car park RIAT should make every effort to keep people safe, that's partly what you're paying your money for. But where does their responsibility end? I've been in the Co-op in Fairford village buying a few beers when a display team has come over at about 500ft in formation. This is arguably far more dangerous. Do you evacuate that area too for their own safety?


No, we do what we've done for some time and ensure that display participants are briefed on the regulations regarding overflight of, in your example towns, and the FDD & FCC monitor for compliance.

f) Except when necessary for take-off or landing, or except by permission from the competent authority, a VFR flight shall not be flown:
(1)over the congested areas of cities, towns or settlements or over an open-air assembly of persons at a height less than 300 m (1 000 ft) above the highest obstacle within a radius of 600 m from the aircraft;


Would it not be a fair thing to offer and addional viewing advantage for those who Just can not attend the show (some people just cant but feel horrified they cant see even for a brief time from outside the show) as I have said if x number of people where given an option - No viewing or reduced Fee viewing, I know what most would chose.

Dan213
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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by Dan213 »

IATthenRIAT wrote:
RIAT Air Ops wrote:
verreli wrote:
Wrexham Mackem wrote:Sometimes people need to be protected from themselves, that's what a responsible society does. Within reason of course.


As for event management, within the event boundary and the travel route to the car park RIAT should make every effort to keep people safe, that's partly what you're paying your money for. But where does their responsibility end? I've been in the Co-op in Fairford village buying a few beers when a display team has come over at about 500ft in formation. This is arguably far more dangerous. Do you evacuate that area too for their own safety?


No, we do what we've done for some time and ensure that display participants are briefed on the regulations regarding overflight of, in your example towns, and the FDD & FCC monitor for compliance.

f) Except when necessary for take-off or landing, or except by permission from the competent authority, a VFR flight shall not be flown:
(1)over the congested areas of cities, towns or settlements or over an open-air assembly of persons at a height less than 300 m (1 000 ft) above the highest obstacle within a radius of 600 m from the aircraft;


Would it not be a fair thing to offer and addional viewing advantage for those who Just can not attend the show (some people just cant but feel horrified they cant see even for a brief time from outside the show) as I have said if x number of people where given an option - No viewing or reduced Fee viewing, I know what most would chose.


How many times do we have to say tho? Your suggestion is flawed on just about every level. You pay the admission fee for the privellage if seeing the show, anything you see from the outside is a bonus. As I, and others have mentioned several times but without you taking it onboard, the field under the approach is out of bounds as it is underneath the display line. Secondly, if you have an issue getting into the show due to the crowds then why is there no issue with being in a crowded space off the airfield?

As has been said more than enough times now, this will not happen. It is quite clear that the only reason you keep bringing this up is due to the fact you want to see the show for next to nothing and you are now no longer in a position to do that. Either pay the admission fee or quit moaning about not being able to log the aircraft...

IATthenRIAT
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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by IATthenRIAT »

To a large enough proportion of people £55 is too much money for them, that would feed a couple for a week, also many people (even if they could afford the ticket price) may not be able to plan in advance, as thier life may go from day to day.
This makes it akward as if they were able to travel a distance to visit the show and take the chance they could get a ticket at the entrance, what are they to do if they can not get in - suffer? what if they have traveled by train then bused or even walked to the show - then to be turned away with no where to go - not very nice for them.

I am a biker I can not plan in advance I get about 1 days notice to be able to plan a day out, I would need to bike it down and see if I could get in with my noisy harley, I sometimes like to leave the bike and car share for some company, but its not always possible

That why I did the camp last year - zero advance booking no hassle just straight in, paid my way and spent all day there except for a quick walk down to see what I could see and photograph, I was 15minutes max.

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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by boff180 »

IATthenRIAT wrote:To a large enough proportion of people £55 is too much money for them, that would feed a couple for a week, also many people (even if they could afford the ticket price) may not be able to plan in advance, as thier life may go from day today.
This makes it akward as if they were able to travel a distance to visit the show and take the chance they could get a ticket at the entrance, what are they to do if they can not get in - suffer? what if they have traveled by train then bused or even walked to the show - then to be turned away with no where to go - not very nice for them.

I am a biker I can not plan in advance I get about 1 days notice to be able to plan a day out, I would need to bike it down and see if I could get in with my noisy harley, I sometimes like to leave the bike and car share for some company, but its not always possible

That why I did the camp last year - zero advance booking no hassle just straight in, paid my way and spent all day there except for a quick walk down to see what I could see and photograph, I was 15minutes max.


1. Tickets (I think) are available online until midnight before a show day.
2. They make it very clear not to attempt entry without an advanced ticket. Not only on the perimeter but on the website and on all the approach roads out to the motorway network.
3. They’ve already announced one day has sold out.

The two situations you’ve described about not being able to get a ticket or... travelling down to find you won’t be let in because there are no tickets on the gate just aren’t valid. Anyone attempting that is just ignoring all advice and information put out by the organisers.

If you can’t afford a ticket, that’s unfortunate, but the end of the day we live in a capitalist society - if you can’t afford something the harsh reality is, it’s tough. You have chosen to make a decision that the entry price is too high for you, it is simple supply and demand.

Wanting special treatment for not attending the airshow is the same as someone wanting to pay to stand outside a rock concert so that they can “just listen”. It’s ludicrous.

Andy

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CJS
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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by CJS »

IATthenRIAT wrote:To a large enough proportion of people £55 is too much money for them, that would feed a couple for a week, also many people (even if they could afford the ticket price) may not be able to plan in advance, as thier life may go from day today.
This makes it akward as if they were able to travel a distance to visit the show and take the chance they could get a ticket at the entrance, what are they to do if they can not get in - suffer? what if they have traveled by train then bused or even walked to the show - then to be turned away with no where to go - not very nice for them.

I am a biker I can not plan in advance I get about 1 days notice to be able to plan a day out, I would need to bike it down and see if I could get in with my noisy harley, I sometimes like to leave the bike and car share for some company, but its not always possible

That why I did the camp last year - zero advance booking no hassle just straight in, paid my way and spent all day there except for a quick walk down to see what I could see and photograph, I was 15minutes max.


Would you like to borrow a bigger shovel?
With just the slightest bit of finesse, I might have made a little less mess.

jayne_morris
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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by jayne_morris »

we are still two weeks away from the show and you are talking about going and how you can view from outside the base but you say you cant plan until the day before, it would be a good time to give up on this as it is not going to happen

borismorris
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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by borismorris »

Can afford a Harley but cant afford a ticket...

:tumbleweed:

Or

:wall:

Or

:grin:

Heres a thought..

Give up on this year.
Put £1 a week aside from now.
This time next year, book your ticket. Give me a buzz and I will arrange to pick you up.

FullCarrot
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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by FullCarrot »

IATthenRIAT wrote:Would it not be a fair thing to offer and addional viewing advantage for those who Just can not attend the show (some people just cant but feel horrified they cant see even for a brief time from outside the show) as I have said if x number of people where given an option - No viewing or reduced Fee viewing, I know what most would chose.



No it wouldn't, If you cannot attend the show then that is quite simply your problem to deal with. RIAT does not owe you or anyone else who freeloads (including me as I've done it in the past) outside the threshold an alternative viewing area. End of. They just don't, so lets put that one to bed right now.

The ticket would cost you £5 a month to save for, even the most strapped can afford that. I can help you with the whole chancing it on the day to see if you can get a ticket - you cant, problem solved for you there.
Don't leave things to the day before to plan a trip - plan well in advance and have everything in place, if you cannot attend the show day for some reason you can sell your ticket, somebody out there will buy it and the rest of the money you saved for camp site, fuel, food etc you can pay to watch the live stream and get yourself a slab of beer in.

It was only a matter of time before access to that part of the road was brought under stricter control, the warning signs were the fencing being erected last year to deter freeloaders, if you didn't see this coming then I'm surprised.
Stay in the campsite watch the show from a different angle and enjoy it, last year I chinned off the threshold area and stayed in Flyby camping and some of my best photos came from sitting in a comfy chair, beer in hand surrounded by family and friends.

Don't let this path closure put a downer on your weekend at RIAT

pb643
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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by pb643 »

Please tell me that majority of this thread is not for real? This has got to be a windup? :dizzy: :facepalm: :dizzy:

G67
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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by G67 »

boff180 wrote:Wanting special treatment for not attending the airshow is the same as someone wanting to pay to stand outside a rock concert so that they can “just listen”. It’s ludicrous.


Conversely the RIAT organisers want 'special treatment' by closing a footpath for a week. Why would a council close a public thoroughfare for the benefit of a revenue event? Ludicrous.

Imagine instead if the road was closed for vehicles and onlookers could set-up their chairs on the road. No risk of people-traffic collisions, nice and safe. Now that'd raise a stink. Pedestrians can be told where to go without a concern but car-people don't like being the victims. "I had to drive ten minutes in my air-conditioned luxury to reach another entrance. Diabolical!"

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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by Stagger2 »

G67 wrote:
boff180 wrote:Wanting special treatment for not attending the airshow is the same as someone wanting to pay to stand outside a rock concert so that they can “just listen”. It’s ludicrous.


Conversely the RIAT organisers want 'special treatment' by closing a footpath for a week. Why would a council close a public thoroughfare for the benefit of a revenue event? Ludicrous.

Imagine instead if the road was closed for vehicles and onlookers could set-up their chairs on the road. No risk of people-traffic collisions, nice and safe. Now that'd raise a stink. Pedestrians can be told where to go without a concern but car-people don't like being the victims. "I had to drive ten minutes in my air-conditioned luxury to reach another entrance. Diabolical!"


Wow! Just as the flames were dying on this subject, you go & throw petrol on it! :shock: You aint been near Saddleworth recently have you? :whistle:
Which part of "DBH do NOT want people sited in a defined area of enhanced risk outside their control, but within their responsibility, for free!" do you not understand? :wall:
Most of the deceased at Shoreham were not innocent people passing by, they were people who chose to accept the risk of enjoying a free show (but forgot to tell their Next of Kin :roll: ) & paid with their lives! I'm totally surprised this mitigating revision hasn't been implemented earlier based on the preceding facts evident from Day 1 post-Shoreham.

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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by MiG_Eater »

As soon as Shoreham gets brought up in conversations like this my blood begins to boil. The guys watching at Shoreham took a risk which they should have been allowed to take. It is a risk I would gladly accept myself (although I always prefer to go into shows) because the likelihood of an accident like that happening is so small it is utterly negligible. It may seem i'm being a little cold-hearted but a life that is lived with any pleasure whatsoever involves constantly risking death or injury to a lesser or greater degree. Occasionally, it doesn't work out for someone and someone dies prematurely, but watching aeroplanes from outside an airshow is so safe that it makes the news when a handful of people die, simply because it is so rare and so unusual.

The Shoreham accident was an utter tragedy (and a travesty on the part of the person responsible) but the guys watching from outside did nothing outrageous (or especially dangerous) apart from failing to support what used to be, by all accounts, a decent airshow!

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Re: Whelford End - spotting from pavement being blocked for

Post by Brevet Cable »

You do realise that the vast majority of those killed at Shoreham were eff-all to do with spectating freeloaders -- they were merely driving down the road en-route to somewhere else. :roll:
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