RIAT 2019

All you'll ever need to know about the UK's biggest airshow
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aviodromefriend
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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by aviodromefriend »

Go4Long wrote:I think a lot of the reason that North American teams demos end up with such big pauses in them when performing in the UK is that the regs are so different.
As those rules are basically drawn up by NATO , there shouldn't be much difference between the rules in countries that are members of NATO.
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Go4Long
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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by Go4Long »

aviodromefriend wrote:
Go4Long wrote:I think a lot of the reason that North American teams demos end up with such big pauses in them when performing in the UK is that the regs are so different.
As those rules are basically drawn up by NATO , there shouldn't be much difference between the rules in countries that are members of NATO.


The airshow regs have zero to do with NATO.

Watch any video of the North American teams on YouTube and you’ll see that their demos are different from what they do over their. The Canadian hornet last year was a good example. In Canada they do a sneak pass to an unrestricted climb that originates from behind the crowd that was absent in the uk. Their high speed pass is faster here than the UK regs allow (the thunderbirds solo also got their pee pee spanked for their sneak pass being too low and too fast, and also weren’t allowed to use the second half of their sneak pass which is #5 coming from behind the crowd)...there was a couple other passes that the PAO mentioned they weren’t allowed to do over there. The dedication passes here also all start over the crowd and are big banana passes here, where over there they’re significantly less curvy.

Strangely though, while they have to be slower, your crowd line can be closer.

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Skyflash
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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by Skyflash »

Go4Long wrote:
aviodromefriend wrote:
Go4Long wrote:I think a lot of the reason that North American teams demos end up with such big pauses in them when performing in the UK is that the regs are so different.
As those rules are basically drawn up by NATO , there shouldn't be much difference between the rules in countries that are members of NATO.


The airshow regs have zero to do with NATO.

Watch any video of the North American teams on YouTube and you’ll see that their demos are different from what they do over their. The Canadian hornet last year was a good example. In Canada they do a sneak pass to an unrestricted climb that originates from behind the crowd that was absent in the uk. Their high speed pass is faster here than the UK regs allow (the thunderbirds solo also got their pee pee spanked for their sneak pass being too low and too fast, and also weren’t allowed to use the second half of their sneak pass which is #5 coming from behind the crowd)...there was a couple other passes that the PAO mentioned they weren’t allowed to do over there. The dedication passes here also all start over the crowd and are big banana passes here, where over there they’re significantly less curvy.

Strangely though, while they have to be slower, your crowd line can be closer.


^^^ all of this.
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Red Dragon
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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by Red Dragon »

aviodromefriend wrote:
Go4Long wrote:I think a lot of the reason that North American teams demos end up with such big pauses in them when performing in the UK is that the regs are so different.
As those rules are basically drawn up by NATO , there shouldn't be much difference between the rules in countries that are members of NATO.


If "NATO demonstration rules" are the same in the US and Europe, explain the differences between the distant USAF F-16 demo and the closer Belgian demo?

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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by MiG_Eater »

The speed of fast passes has often been a source of confusion for me. I'm sure I remember fast passes being very fast indeed 10 or 15 years ago... when did the regs change?

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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by Go4Long »

MiG_Eater wrote:The speed of fast passes has often been a source of confusion for me. I'm sure I remember fast passes being very fast indeed 10 or 15 years ago... when did the regs change?


I know in North America they dialed the high speed passes back slightly around 2014. Before that the CF-18 demo did theirs at 0.98 mach. It was quite impressive. I believe it was 2014ish that there was a couple speed of sound issues right at the start of the season and everyone slowed down a bit. I think Canada does ours at 0.9 mach now.

The thunderbirds sneak pass over here in N.A. is still very spirited (although also slowed down a bit in the last few years). You could hear his ground support reminding him that he had to do 500kts at 500ft at RIAT...they're significantly faster and lower than that over here. The thunderbirds do their sneak pass as a banana pass followed by #5 a little higher and from behind. The blues do theirs level and straight down the runway at what looks to be around 100ft.

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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by PanaviaTornado »

MiG_Eater wrote:The speed of fast passes has often been a source of confusion for me. I'm sure I remember fast passes being very fast indeed 10 or 15 years ago... when did the regs change?


I agree, however the debut of M2000N pair a few years back, at least to me, really pushed it noticeably more than other acts, especially the Thursday rehearsal of....hmm.. 2016? I watched it from 'another area' and they were really, really shifting.

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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by MiG_Eater »

I agree - and remember it well!

I get the feeling that good pilots will always factor in an element of 'padding' to protect themselves from breaking rules, but then I also feel that the rules themselves have this contingency added in as well, so it is rare that we ever get to see aircraft really pushing the limits.

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mavvymoo
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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by mavvymoo »

Luke28 wrote:I always enjoy the OTT stateside commentaries aswell.

Although a bit of 'comedy' from the Saturday of 2017.

*Dramatic build up music*

"Ladddddys and Gentleman, booooooys and girls, get ready to be wowed by the most advanced fighter jet in the wooooooooooooooorld todayyyyyyyyy"

*long pause*

"ladys and gentleman unfortunately due the low cloud the Raptor will not be able to display for you today"


I knew we'd be able to laugh about that one day....... :clap:
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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by boff180 »

PanaviaTornado wrote:
MiG_Eater wrote:The speed of fast passes has often been a source of confusion for me. I'm sure I remember fast passes being very fast indeed 10 or 15 years ago... when did the regs change?


I agree, however the debut of M2000N pair a few years back, at least to me, really pushed it noticeably more than other acts, especially the Thursday rehearsal of....hmm.. 2016? I watched it from 'another area' and they were really, really shifting.


I believe the UK limit is Mach 0.9 which changes with air temperature and air pressure, hence sometimes it can be physically faster (in knots) than others.

EG: Assuming a fixed air pressure, Mach 1.0 at 26 degrees C is 673.8kts (775.92mph) whereas at 14 degrees C it is 660.15kts (760.19mph). Not much of a difference but still significant to some peoples eye. Factor in varying air pressure as the UK climate experiences then the changes become much greater.

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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by MiG_Eater »

Thanks Boff - good to know!

IATthenRIAT
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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by IATthenRIAT »

Remember the German F4s through the 90s and early 2000s thier high speed pass sure seemed fast from what I remember.

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harkins
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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by harkins »

Has the height of the fast passes increased over the years and led to at least a perception of less speed, or even coupled with actual reduced speed left them looking really rather sedate?

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CJS
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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by CJS »

There were some pretty low passes from the Americans a few years back and I still think at least one of them was over the crowd; a sneak pass from an F-16 that caught me and everyone else around me totally by surprise :shock:
With just the slightest bit of finesse, I might have made a little less mess.

Habu
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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by Habu »

Might seem like silly questions , but how is the speed , for example on a straight pass above the runway , calculated ? Is it downlinked from the aircraft instruments or is there some form of measuring equipment employed by the airshow organisers ? Thanks

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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by AngryAndyPandy »

Habu wrote:Might seem like silly questions , but how is the speed , for example on a straight pass above the runway , calculated ? Is it downlinked from the aircraft instruments or is there some form of measuring equipment employed by the airshow organisers ? Thanks


I believe there are ground based radar systems dotted around the airfield and at the extreme ends of the runway that are used for this sort of thing to track them, looking at their minimum altitude and max speed etc (I am by no means an expert). I'm sure someone on here has some more information.

IATthenRIAT
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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by IATthenRIAT »

Could the first bits of equipment have come in earlier today - A reach flt C-17 landed from Edwards/Andrews AFB and they off loaded two pallets of stuff.

jason82wells
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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by jason82wells »

What do we make of this?

Personally, I can't think of anything involving them exciting me. :snack:

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Abbo46
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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by Abbo46 »

Display with one of 2Excels' 727s would be decent. :up:

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Tmyers123
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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by Tmyers123 »

The Blades better not be one of the “special” Sunday flypasts. :hide:

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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by jason82wells »

Tmyers123 wrote:The Blades better not be one of the “special” Sunday flypasts. :hide:


That was my first fear! :surrender:

I wonder whether there's any scope or demand to see the blades with the red arrows - has that been done before? Would get a couple of passes out of them at least whereas the other flypasts over the weekends will presumably be single fly by's.

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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by Sid-104 »

I believe The Vikings are the fast pass kings from the very first IAT in1985. Axel Ostermann has recounted the incident in a few publications, the underpass manoeuvre involved Viking 1 flying a slow pass while the second F-104 passed underneath at high speed and 300 feet. On this occasion, Viking 2 realised he was going to be late arriving at crowd centre so increased power, resulting in the aircraft touching the sound barrier (but luckily not breaking it) as it passed underneath. In the book "Vikings for take off" Axel recalls getting an absolute rocket on landing. I remember hearing the rumble of the shock wave as the 104 approached. Older guys on the forum will no doubt remember, and for you younger ones, they were the days!

Sid.

mark_aviation
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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by mark_aviation »

Abbo46 wrote:Display with one of 2Excels' 727s would be decent. :up:


You know, you might be in with a shout there... I wouldn’t be against seeing a 727 in the flying :up:

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Roughcutter
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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by Roughcutter »

Sid-104 wrote:I believe The Vikings are the fast pass kings from the very first IAT in1985. Axel Ostermann has recounted the incident in a few publications, the underpass manoeuvre involved Viking 1 flying a slow pass while the second F-104 passed underneath at high speed and 300 feet. On this occasion, Viking 2 realised he was going to be late arriving at crowd centre so increased power, resulting in the aircraft touching the sound barrier (but luckily not breaking it) as it passed underneath. In the book "Vikings for take off" Axel recalls getting an absolute rocket on landing. I remember hearing the rumble of the shock wave as the 104 approached. Older guys on the forum will no doubt remember, and for you younger ones, they were the days!

Sid.


I remember that display very well, it happened right in front of me and at the time, no one would believe my claim about the sound barrier, they thought I was exagerating :yahoo:
...and it's a fair-haired slightly balding Bobby Charlton to kick off!

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jasonT1981
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Re: RIAT 2019

Post by jasonT1981 »

Blades put on a damn good display this past weekend at Duxford. I'm looking forward to seeing them again at RIAT (and in Newcastle NI)

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