RIAT 2018: Thoughts & feedback!

[GazBOH]

I’m not surprised Tom has decided to steer clear of here and other social media for the foreseeable future. I know most of the views aren’t aimed directly at Tom or his team and DBH, but the criticism has come across very harsh. It must be a real slap in the face for the DBH team (and volunteers etc) to read such comments, given the hard work that must have gone into the planning and execution of the show.

DBH put on another brilliant show within the limits of their capability. I enjoyed the special RAF100 bits, as did it seems all those around me, during my time in the show.

There has been some valid constructive points made in this tread, and yes, we’d have all liked to have seen more RAF related displays, but again, i expect the RAF did all they could in terms of the resources they had available.

Some of the comment in here though have been very difficult to read, and it seems follows a trend of negative bitterness on this forum. The RIAT related threads this year have been appalling for that.

[FarnboroJohn]

I'm a one day only chap, all the eggs in one basket and sometimes they fall out or get dunked in cold water, like last year. I also find it irritating (and knackering!) that every second year I have to do RIAT one day and Legends the other: but since it appears Farnborough is now dead in the water, that problem may go away in a few years.

For me, this year's RIAT was fantastic. It was sunny. It was hot. It was wall to wall flying with loads of fast jets. Actually its quite interesting to see two or three of the same type and judge between them, as well as comparing different types and single/pairs displays.

On a one day visit, getting round the static as well as watching the show is just about impossible now especially with a UKAR meet up (which I didn't quite miss, will try to be on time next year) but we dragged our aching feet round with only one chivvy from over-enthusiastic RAF wanting us off base (we had 20 minutes left - ages....) The use of the tree-lined background was appreciated.

Didn't have any traffic issues getting either in or out. I don't really see the necessity for the RIAT marathon, marching down to the village and back on the way in, but I guess it helps the anti-obesity campaign so maybe its government policy. Security were helpful considering the amount of metal I was carrying and I'm right onside with them targeting their efforts.

I liked the nine-ship of Typhoons. But why couldn't it have streamed off from Fairford (the RAF used to stream Vulcans off during airshows, for goodness sake)? The Red Arrows could have made the time for it by operating from another location, avoiding not only their non-display takeoff but also their other commitments getting in the way of RIAT.

Here's a thing. I'm saying nuffing about RAF 100 stickers, but given the dreadful corporatism replacement for esprit de corps that means no more squadron markings, how come the flipping drone ended up emblazoned in full colour 31 Squadron heraldry? What the heck message is that trying to send? Give us back the real RAF and get rid of the grey boringness.

Loved the Japanese C2 as well. Nice colour scheme. They're not frightened of colours, are they, even with the Chinese and North Koreans just over the water? Still the big red spots on the aeroplanes.

Wonderful show. Could maybe have had a tweak or two, but overall a great day out. Thank you DBH and everybody else.

[Tommy]

These sorts of threads I find pretty helpful when writing reviews of shows. Make sure I’ve covered the right bases etc.

Buuuut nuance, tolerance, and respect is farted to the wind. It’s another RIAT car-crash thread. IDK what is wrong with everyone this year, but this place continues to be deeply embarrassing to me these days.

[Red-Eye-Knight]

On the Friday morning, I was lurking around the static park down by where the RQ9 was & couldn't help but hear a conversation between a female spectator and one of the staff manning the RQ9 display.
Towards the end, it revolved around the transition flight.
FS: "Plenty of other UAVs have done much longer flights over longer distances, so why was this one supposed to be so special?"
RS: "Because it was flown along commercial routes through commercial airspace, not military routes"
FS: "Which is no different to what other UAVs have been doing for years, then....was is autonomous, or was it controlled by a person?"
RS: "It was controlled by a UAV pilot"
FS: "So not anything special at all, then.....is it in service yet?"
RS: "Not yet, but it'll hopefully be in service by 2024"
FS: "So nothing special about the flight here, not in service for several years, and even that's not guaranteed, so what's so special about it at all, then?"

Funnily enough, the staffer was quite happy to carry on talking to her ( and others afterwards ) and didn't spit his dummy out & flounce just because she wasn't singing it's praises.

What does this have to do with RIAT thoughts and feedback?

[pbeardmore]

I think there are two different issues here and they perhaps get mixed up?

Was it a good/great RIAT? (thumbs up from me)

Was it a worthy celebration of 100 years of RAF? (thumbs down from me)

[Wrexham Mackem]

That's how I see it too. As an Air Tattoo, I thought it was as great an event as ever. I kicked back on Sunday afternoon and looked at the white smoke in the blue sky and thought this is absolutely classic IAT.

The RAF100 element on the other hand felt underwhelming. Whether the flypast was cancelled or not. I just expected more from the RAF to celebrate their anniversary. There was more than enough in the airshow overall to make it a good one though - I enjoyed it immensely.

[Brevet Cable]

What does this have to do with RIAT thoughts and feedback?

Is it really that difficult to work out?

[Red-Eye-Knight]

What does this have to do with RIAT thoughts and feedback?

Is it really that difficult to work out?

Em yeah cause its got nothing to do with thoughts and feedback about RIAT, Your rambling on about a UAV and what some women was saying so i cannot see how this has anything to do with thoughts and feedback? Or is it just me?............ Dont worry i expect you will have some smart comment to reply to me with wont you.

[RIAT Air Ops]

It was a let down, is the truth. This year had been massively hyped up, be it by DBH, by ourselves, by the general expectation. Talk of big updates, so much coming into the office that updates would need to be done as and when a month beforehand, parking off base needing to be implemented because of so much static, none of it materialised. God knows we didn't need a whole extra day of arrivals, even before the cancellations, nor was the Friday show anything at all. Simply a third day of the exact same show, it felt pretty unnecessary.

You have to wonder if much of this actually is the RAF's fault. Certainly putting all their eggs into the Friday basket was, if you'll pardon me, a massive, massive ballsup. Look how spectacularly that failed. Of course, that wouldn't have mattered had the RAF had, you know, any contingency plans in place for it, or even gone to the effort of doing it on all three days like you feel any other air force in the world would've tried to do. So they basically failed to celebrate their own centenary at their own centenary show. Sheer bloody lack of interest in doing anything for it.

And what's more, you really get the impression that they hadn't made any effort to encourage other air arms, ones with huge connections to the RAF, to attend - favours, strong-arming, reciprocating, whatever, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it turns out that the RAF said "we're not going to make any effort toward that at all - it's your airshow, you do it". One aircraft from Australia (which has attended merely one year before), nothing from New Zealand, nothing from South Africa - all air forces with famously linked relationships with the RAF. How about Jordan, for whom we train half their pilots? Same old guff as always. Oman, same deal? One Herc, same as always. Saudi Arabia, a country who we pay very handsomely to buy our fighters off us, and then train their pilots for them? Zilch. Singapore? Not even a sniff. Even before the Fitter grounding, the Polish contribution wasn't much at all, for a country that hero worships the pilots of 303sqn. Perhaps this is a sign of the irrelevant country the UK has become since 2016, maybe it's more, but it's very revealing of a real lack of interest. The RAF should've been sending C-17s across the globe to pick up assets and vintage aircraft with a connection to the RAF and bring them together in a celebration of themselves.

If this was to be the crescendo of RAF100, then all this whole bloody programme has done this year is make me resent the RAF. Why should I care about them if they don't?

Sam, I've had a good nights sleep and will take the opportunity to reply to elements of this post if I may.

First I'll jump to your last comment regarding the RAF and "Why should I care about them if they don't?". I know they do - fact. However they are a force that is financially hamstrung, has commitments far and wide and is just shy of a trained manpower strength of 33,000 (less than half the capacity of Old Trafford) given those conditions then RAF100 was always going to be a delivery challenge for them.

Expectations. We had those as big as most folks and believe me we are just as disappointed that certain nations chose, for whatever reasons, not to participate. There's nothing we can do about that bar work to influence them to come to the event and that we do in spades; what more do you think we can do? We (I) give feedback here and on SM (twitter) as to what we are doing, where we (I) have been to try to give the community some insight and to keep the interest going. If that is interpreted differently and folks chose to take that to build up their expectations then again, there's nothing I can do about that bar stop doing it.

Elsewhere, Australia participated with a single Wedgetail and the crew bust a gut to get to Fairford for Friday evening given the problems they had en-route. In my book that's a huge commitment although not up to the expectations of some. New Zealand had nothing in the European area that could be with us, Cosford benefitted from the 757 being in the country in June and well done them. As for the other examples you give I shudder to think of the man-hours expended encouraging the likes of Jordan, Oman and Saudi Arabia to participate with something a little different and as for Singapore, multiply those man-hours by a factor of four with no return. Militarily they are a cautious nation.

As for sending C-17s around the globe to pick up aircraft etc. .......... really?

From the weekend before we were hit by a large number of cancellations which at times had me dreading to pick up the phone. We would have needed extra space for static aircraft had all the cancellations been with us and we did need three display days so that outside of 'core' participants we could guarantee at least two days display flying for those who had committed assets to be at Fairford without each days flying display lasting circa 9.5 hours.

Flypast - The weather minima was stipulated by the RAF in line with their flying regulations and that criteria led to the cancellation of Fridays flypast, it wasn't as alluded elsewhere in these pages, a RIAT FDD decision. For a number of reasons that flypast was not scheduled to take place on Saturday and Sunday. The airspace plan and considerations for other airspace users over that weekend alone were eyewateringly complex.

Finally, why am I taking a forum and social media time out? Nothing to do with fear of criticism, nor have I spat my dummy out (may have been what BC was hinting at and if not, I apologise). I've consistently said that I'm not looking for some RIAT Happy Clapping and I welcome a challenge and a contrary view and I'd expect that to be a two-way street. However it does get tiresome to be regularly coming on here to engage and explain what we're up to, offer a view on why certain things are happening only to see the same views raised time and again and at times have some online abuse directed our way and frankly enough is enough.

I genuinely do wish the members of the forum the very best and happy to chat if we bump into each other on a fence line somewhere.

And on that note, thats all from me, enjoy the remainder of the season.

Tom

[The Baron]

I think there are two different issues here and they perhaps get mixed up?

Was it a good/great RIAT? (thumbs up from me)

Was it a worthy celebration of 100 years of RAF? (thumbs down from me)

Spot on...

[Brevet Cable]

Em yeah cause its got nothing to do with thoughts and feedback about RIAT, Your rambling on about a UAV and what some women was saying so i cannot see how this has anything to do with thoughts and feedback? Or is it just me?

Quite simple, really.
If you're job entails interacting with members of the public, or if you're on an internet forum effectively acting as a mouthpiece for an organisation, you should expect criticism or negative feedback at some stage & not spit your dummy out if/when it happens.

Dont worry i expect you will have some smart comment to reply to me with wont you.

Strange sort of comment for someone who's been a forum member for all of 2 days.....

[Brevet Cable]

...nor have I spat my dummy out (may have been what BC was hinting at and if not, I apologise)

Nope, it was what I was hinting at, simply because that's the impression your last post gave.
I'm happy that I've proved to be wrong, though.

[Tim Dix]

Tim Dix, I agree with everything in your post but you massively misunderstood the RCAF Hornet thread. I made it because I didn’t understand the unfair comments on it, hence the title; “Was the RCAF Hornet really that bad?” (No, not at all.) I really enjoyed their demo and the comments labelling them as poor annoyed me, which is why I made that thread.

My apologies sir, I was quite tired when writing last night and did not express myself clear enough, I meant that it shouldn’t have been necessary for a thread to be raised on the back of the criticism laid down at this particular act. I am with you, I enjoyed it immensely both st Yeovilton and Fairford and was particularly pleased to see the dirty jet used at least once.
Thank you.
Ps, I hope you enjoy your Lake Visit!

[pbeardmore]

https://www.airtattoo.com/files/headeri ... ebsite.pdf

I also think that there is perhaps an issue with managing expectations. Joe public have little or no knowedge of just how complex these fhypasts are and how easy it is to throw a spanner in the works. Check page 4, when you use such firm, positive language re the flypast, people read it and think, "I would love to see that", they take it for granted it's going to happen and only the minority of experienced airshow fans know that it's all theory until the day arrives.

Of course RIAT use these set pieces as selling tools to leverage ticket sales but the more they do, the bigger the disappointment when it does not happen and, for some, it cast's a shadow over the rest of the day.

[Tim Dix]

... it was the wonderful 9 ship of Typhoons and 617 sqn salute! A fly past and demo you will not see again, ever

Whilst you may not see the 617 flypast again ( unless they repeat it at another airshow/event in the coming months ) due to the Tornado going OOS, you can pretty much guarantee the 9-ship Typhoon flypast will be seen again, either as an individual flypast or as an element of a larger flypast.

Next up, the complete lack of respect for the professionalism of the display pilots and their routines/ displays. To call the Rad Arrows poor is unbelievable, you are, and I say this with full confidence, in the absolute minority of show goers and the general public ( joe public I believe you call non-enthusiasts) if you believe this. Before those who alluded to their display being ‘put to shame by the Swiss’ or ‘all over the place’ or whatever quote/ description you used, Say I have mis-quoted you, it’s what you meant. You may not enjoy their particular routine this year, but to call them poor is, well words defy me. If the red arrows pilots were in front of you I doubt very, very much you would have the balls to tell them they were anything but a superb team. Keyboard criticism is very easy.

If you feel the Red Arrows dasplay ( or any others' ) is poor for whatever reason, and you can give the reasons why you think so, why shouldn't you say so, or if you think other display items are better, again why shouldn't you say so?
Others may or may not agree with you, but it is - after all - your opinion.
As for not telling the RAFAT pilots that you think their display is anything other than "superb", why wouldn't you tell them....what are they going to do, pile-on & kick the crap out of you for doing so?

Again, if you don't enjoy something that you've paid to attend why shouldn't you say so, be that an airshow, a concert or a sporting event.[/quote]

Hi Brevet (apologies, I don’t know first names on here)
Yes, I meant the 617sqn democracy Flypast, which I thought was a quality replacement/ contingency plan for the
Lack of a large Flypast on Sat/ Sun. Nothing I believe could have been done on Fri to make up for its loss and I simply enjoyed what was left (a flanker and loads of fast jets was hardly a swift kick in the .....)

As for your comment as to why wouldn’t you criticise professional/ dedicated pilots following a display that they had spent many months working towards and was enjoyed by hundreds of thousands, millions intact over the course of a season, not out of concern they would physically harm you (they have already demonstrated greater courage and class for that), but out of respect.

I do not wish to get into an argument with anyone as it is easy to fall out/ take issue with someone’s opinions over the keyboard and I am sure that if we met we would probably simply enjoy a beer together and talk about planes, but I just wanted to try and explain how I put any disappointments into perspective.
Regards
Tim

[Tim Dix]

No? I don't think it hinders them either? It's my thoughts on the show as someone who took a week out of their life to attend.

How is it ridiculous? If you read my post in full, you'll understand that it's pointing out that the lack of commonwealth support meant the RAF celebrations didn't take on a truly global aspect that we were all expecting from this show, thanks to the build up. That's correct. I'm not going to hold off from acknowledging that failure because "the show is run by people", which is what Tim Dix is ludicrously suggesting. Otherwise no one would ever criticise anything in the world ever.

I find it hard to believe he honestly believes the show was a success to its central theme.

Sir
I am not ludicrously suggesting anything, nor that constructive criticism when asked for isn’t helpful and no doubt welcome to help improve things.
I just ask once more for perspective, was the show really a failure? Do the DBH, the RAF and the individual display (and pilots) deserve the level of what is at time personal attack. I don’t believe asking for common decency and respect towards these people, teams and institutions while providing both criticism and feedback is Ludicrous at all, I just think it’s slightly more classy.

As I said to Brever Cable, I do not wish to argue with people I do not know, but clearly gave a common intrest in, I just wanted to make my case for the defence.
Regards
Tim

[Tmyers123]

Tim Dix, I agree with everything in your post but you massively misunderstood the RCAF Hornet thread. I made it because I didn’t understand the unfair comments on it, hence the title; “Was the RCAF Hornet really that bad?” (No, not at all.) I really enjoyed their demo and the comments labelling them as poor annoyed me, which is why I made that thread.

My apologies sir, I was quite tired when writing last night and did not express myself clear enough, I meant that it shouldn’t have been necessary for a thread to be raised on the back of the criticism laid down at this particular act. I am with you, I enjoyed it immensely both st Yeovilton and Fairford and was particularly pleased to see the dirty jet food used at least once.
Thank you.
Ps, I hope you enjoy your Lake Visit!

That’s fine. And thanks, i sure will!

[Red-Eye-Knight]

Em yeah cause its got nothing to do with thoughts and feedback about RIAT, Your rambling on about a UAV and what some women was saying so i cannot see how this has anything to do with thoughts and feedback? Or is it just me?

Quite simple, really.
If you're job entails interacting with members of the public, or if you're on an internet forum effectively acting as a mouthpiece for an organisation, you should expect criticism or negative feedback at some stage & not spit your dummy out if/when it happens.

Dont worry i expect you will have some smart comment to reply to me with wont you.

Strange sort of comment for someone who's been a forum member for all of 2 days.....

Not a strange comment as after reading a lot of posts and threads there are alot of smart comments from yourself along with others.

[Wissam24]

No? I don't think it hinders them either? It's my thoughts on the show as someone who took a week out of their life to attend.

How is it ridiculous? If you read my post in full, you'll understand that it's pointing out that the lack of commonwealth support meant the RAF celebrations didn't take on a truly global aspect that we were all expecting from this show, thanks to the build up. That's correct. I'm not going to hold off from acknowledging that failure because "the show is run by people", which is what Tim Dix is ludicrously suggesting. Otherwise no one would ever criticise anything in the world ever.

I find it hard to believe he honestly believes the show was a success to its central theme.

Sir
I am not ludicrously suggesting anything, nor that constructive criticism when asked for isn’t helpful and no doubt welcome to help improve things.
I just ask once more for perspective, was the show really a failure? Do the DBH, the RAF and the individual display (and pilots) deserve the level of what is at time personal attack. I don’t believe asking for common decency and respect towards these people, teams and institutions while providing both criticism and feedback is Ludicrous at all, I just think it’s slightly more classy.

As I said to Brever Cable, I do not wish to argue with people I do not know, but clearly gave a common intrest in, I just wanted to make my case for the defence.
Regards
Tim

I never said the show was a failure. If you read the very first paragraph of my comment you'd know that. I said the RAF100 theme was a failure. Acknowledging that isn't the same as showing disrespect to to volunteers or organisers.

[Pringles]

While unfortunately I can't spare the time and/or money for Radom, it will be interesting to see how the Polish 100th anniversary compares, both as a show and how home team support compares. Perhaps this thread may be revived then to get thoughts and feedback from those that attend both?

Apologies if this is a bit of a thread drift!

[Wissam24]

Quite! What's the betting they manage to put on the full home team presentation both days?

Hell RAF100 is a central theme of Oshkosh this year. Let's see what that's like and all.

[Dan213]

No? I don't think it hinders them either? It's my thoughts on the show as someone who took a week out of their life to attend.

How is it ridiculous? If you read my post in full, you'll understand that it's pointing out that the lack of commonwealth support meant the RAF celebrations didn't take on a truly global aspect that we were all expecting from this show, thanks to the build up. That's correct. I'm not going to hold off from acknowledging that failure because "the show is run by people", which is what Tim Dix is ludicrously suggesting. Otherwise no one would ever criticise anything in the world ever.

I find it hard to believe he honestly believes the show was a success to its central theme.

Sir
I am not ludicrously suggesting anything, nor that constructive criticism when asked for isn’t helpful and no doubt welcome to help improve things.
I just ask once more for perspective, was the show really a failure? Do the DBH, the RAF and the individual display (and pilots) deserve the level of what is at time personal attack. I don’t believe asking for common decency and respect towards these people, teams and institutions while providing both criticism and feedback is Ludicrous at all, I just think it’s slightly more classy.

As I said to Brever Cable, I do not wish to argue with people I do not know, but clearly gave a common intrest in, I just wanted to make my case for the defence.
Regards
Tim

I never said the show was a failure. If you read the very first paragraph of my comment you'd know that. I said the RAF100 theme was a failure. Acknowledging that isn't the same as showing disrespect to to volunteers or organisers.

How you can say the RAF100 theme was a failure I don’t know. I’d like to thank Tom for coming on here and giving such a detailed explanation like he did earlier despite the utterly ridiculous expectations of some. In previous years I’ve had a lot of respect for you Sam but honestly your posts as of recent have been incredibly rude and narrow minded to say the least. I honestly feel sorry for anyone from RIAT or the RAF or anyone else with any connection to RIAT having to read some of the stuff that you’ve posted recently. You really seem to have grown too big for your boots

[Wissam24]

Probably because the main thing they had planned at the show didn't happen, the RAF100 stickers were abysmal and they weren't even on all the aircraft that came so there wasn't even a sense of unity among it, there wasn't an example of every RAF asset in service at the show (as had been intended and planned) and there was no real memorable aspect of RAF100, the celebration of the world's first and oldest independent air arm, a celebration that can never be repeated, present this year either from the home team or from abroad. I didn't come away feeling that the magnitude of the centenary, the biggest milestone in global military aviation history to date, had been celebrated and I can't say I spoke to anyone at the show who did either.

The RAF contribution to RIAT this year, as it actually happened over the show weekend, was on a par, relatively speaking, with what other countries do at their annual or biannual shows as a matter of course. That the flypast didn't happen is, as has been demonstrated above, a symptom of all this, never planned to be repeated, no contingency in place. Look at what other, smaller countries have done for the very soft milestones of "100 years of military aviation" and tell me RAF100 at RIAT was better, or even on a par. Hell, if you visited on the day and it wasn't actually announced, I honestly don't think you'd twig that that was the central theme of the show this year.

Sorry if evaluating RAF100 as it happened at RIAT is getting too big for my boots though. Would you mind letting me know how big my boots are so I know to keep within them?

[Domvickery]

How you can say the RAF100 theme was a failure I don’t know.

So lets put it on the other foot, tell us how the RAF100 celebrations were a sucess?

[Dan213]

Probably because the main thing they had planned at the show didn't happen, the RAF100 stickers were abysmal and they weren't even on all the aircraft that came so there wasn't even a sense of unity among it, there wasn't an example of every RAF asset in service at the show (as had been intended and planned) and there was no real memorable aspect of RAF100, the celebration of the world's first and oldest independent air arm, a celebration that can never be repeated, present this year either from the home team or from abroad. I didn't come away feeling that the magnitude of the centenary, the biggest milestone in global military aviation history to date, had been celebrated and I can't say I spoke to anyone at the show who did either.

The RAF contribution to RIAT this year was on a par with what other countries do at their annual or biannual shows as a matter of course. That the flypast didn't happen is, as has been demonstrated above, a symptom of all this, never planned to be repeated, no contingency in place. Look at what other, smaller countries have done for the very soft milestones of "100 years of military aviation" and tell me RAF100 at RIAT was better, or even on a par. Hell, if you visited on the day and it wasn't actually announced, I honestly don't think you'd twig that that was the central theme of the show this year.

Sorry if evaluating RAF100 as it happened at RIAT is getting too big for my boots though. Would you mind letting me know how big my boots are so I know to keep within them?

My point is that over the last few months, you make statements left, right and centre about the RAF100 celebrations, when it is clear that your knowledge of the RAF and military organisations in general is severely lacking. Don't get me wrong, there are aspects of the celebration, such as the stickers, that I really detested, however I can understand to a certain extent why it has been done.
It doesn't take a huge amount of effort or time to research why things are like they are but you clearly haven't. Some of the posts and suggestions you have made as to how commonwealth nations should have supported the show is actually laughable and about as far from the truth as it gets. So my suggestion is that you do a little bit of research, as some of your recent posts are coming across as pretty ignorant and childish at times.