RIAT 2019 - Issues

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Ouragan
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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by Ouragan »

Micky S wrote:To add to the other good points raised, I think the show although still very good hasn't been the same since the loss of Paul Bowen.


And here I think you have hit the nail firmly on the head.

Paul Bowen to my mind was the only one who really 'got' IAT/RIAT, and balanced it well between the enthusiasts, the suits and the general public. Ever since his sad demise, and with the greatest respect to Tim Prince, the organisation has struggled to do the same. Perhaps with a new CEO taking over we may see a better balance between the three.

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Wissam24
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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by Wissam24 »

pbeardmore wrote:Perhaps (it's an educated guess), DBH have got into a rut and become a little lazy. It maybe this is inevitable when you have a core product (amazing aircraft displays from all over the World) that results in consistant sell outs year after year and, therefore, profits that go to charity.

When you know you will sell out, it takes real discipline and energy to look to improve year on year, especially in the mucky detail. If you look at examples like Wimbledon or Glastonbury, they can guarantee sellouts every year but they are always innovating, always looking to improve the customer experience whilst retaining the goodwill of the customer. It also takes self discipline not to exploit customer demand and stretch/exploit their good will. The Friday price hike was the perfect example of this IMHO.

They say "the devil is in the detail" but, IMHO, it's hard to look for the detail improving year on year at RIAT. You ony have to look at threads like this over the years to see the same issues coming up over and over again. Such a shame.


Nailed it.
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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by Domvickery »

mavvymoo wrote:
Domvickery wrote:I’d suggest to DBH they get rid of the yellow entrance & combine it with red to double the size, I always read about problems at red but on Saturday & Sunday I was in within 3 minutes

Can’t see that happening. Yellow is not only the dedicated entrance for coaches and the Swindon shuttle buses, but also the nearest entrance for the official campsite and for the hundreds of cadets who are accommodated next to the campsite. Perhaps they should increase the number of entry corridors at Red?


The red entrance is literally across the road from the official campsite, I've stayed there for the last 3 years, last year they had a bridge over the road so pedestrians could use red entrance, it was nearly 1km to walk from the campsites entrance to the pedestrian gate, then you have to walk down to the yellow entrance to then walk more to enter the show ground at the red entrance anyway, my phone said I'd walked nearly 1.5km just to get on to the show ground, moving it would be so much easier, there's a few gates pedestrians could use to enter one again being literally opposite the site.
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pbeardmore
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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by pbeardmore »

Something else to consider is how many customer facing staff really care about the event. I get the impression they are min wage workers brought in via agencies and have no emotional stake re the success of the event. Compare this the the energy and commitment of the staff at mildenall shows. Yes the displays were great but it was also the staff who made it such a great event with genuine goodwill and buzz. DBH should be lookin at such events and trying to bring back these qualities rather than focussing on keeping overheads down.
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Berf
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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by Berf »

Ouragan wrote:
Micky S wrote:To add to the other good points raised, I think the show although still very good hasn't been the same since the loss of Paul Bowen.


And here I think you have hit the nail firmly on the head.

Paul Bowen to my mind was the only one who really 'got' IAT/RIAT, and balanced it well between the enthusiasts, the suits and the general public. Ever since his sad demise, and with the greatest respect to Tim Prince, the organisation has struggled to do the same. Perhaps with a new CEO taking over we may see a better balance between the three.



Not sure I get your Tim Prince comment he was after all the co founder and retired five years ago....

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Ouragan
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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by Ouragan »

Berf wrote:
Ouragan wrote:
Micky S wrote:To add to the other good points raised, I think the show although still very good hasn't been the same since the loss of Paul Bowen.


And here I think you have hit the nail firmly on the head.

Paul Bowen to my mind was the only one who really 'got' IAT/RIAT, and balanced it well between the enthusiasts, the suits and the general public. Ever since his sad demise, and with the greatest respect to Tim Prince, the organisation has struggled to do the same. Perhaps with a new CEO taking over we may see a better balance between the three.



Not sure I get your Tim Prince comment he was after all the co founder and retired five years ago....


I am well aware that he was the co-founder, and that he retired five years ago. And as good as he was he was not as good as Paul Bowen. Perhaps I should have added "and Army Armstrong" after his name if that would have made it clearer.

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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by lynothehammer »

capercaillie wrote:
lynothehammer wrote:I went Friday & Monday for departures

Friday:

My other big gripe was about the Saudi Herc telling us to visit them even though they were inaccessible.


I'd say. Bloody long walk. :shock:


Doh my bad, i meant Jordanian...

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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by UKTopgun »

Sadly in this country we will never see the like of the Air Fête ever again, they were run by serving USAFE personnel so contracted staff are never going to be the same. God I miss it even now !!!

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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by Berf »

While some of these ideas may on the face it seem good people do not take into account or have an understanding of the logistics of arriving aircraft, setting up the show ground, aircraft positioning etc while building in enough flexibility for rehearsal, validation, bad weather, operational commitments and aircrew availability. The events that go on outside of the show days are crucial to attendance. How can any air arm justify the costs to their taxpayers of sending say, as the Swedes did, three frontline aircraft and a support C130 unless there is some operational value to the exercise. The other days are needed for that and to build goodwill and teamwork. The idea of reducing the days does not work for me nor I suspect RIAT.

There will be some enthusiasts who did not come but their expectations of what is going to be seen is unrealistic. If due to the above the Friday shows continues (and I can't image why any enthusiast would not want it to) the problem really lies with the failure to sell out Sunday. I am afraid aviation no longer captures the imagination of the public. It's reflected in the difficulty companies have to recruit people into the industry. More work needs to be done by the commercial and educational teams to attract younger people to the show. Maybe RIAT needs to reach out more directly in partnership with bus companies to run RIAT express coaches from every major town. Make it easier to get to. It needs to invest in improving the traffic marshalling. Does the perception that there is going to be a nightmare queue to get out then a four five hour drive followed by work the next day put off many of the general public? of course it does. Or vice versa - missed the beginning as I was in the Red queue - not going again.

Once 7.30 strikes any minute after you feel you are losing show time or the time you have paid for. One show I went to pre checked bags and tickets - and moved people onto a holding area. On opening time it was just walk right in. You did not feel like you are losing anything or even queuing to get in.

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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by vbombers2 »

Have to say that I enjoyed the flying program, shame about Friday but we got an E-3A flypast so it wasn't all bad. Kudos to the A400M display team for stepping up when it seemed that nothing was going to be flying. On Saturday and Sunday the highlights for me were the Mig-21 and Flanker, F18's were both superb and good to see the Spartan back to it's old tricks.

The static did seem a bit hemmed in by showground related crap but I think this is an unfortunate consequence of an event which needs to cater to non-aviation enthusiasts. You only had to see how many people were out browsing the stalls when displays were on, seems odd to me that folk aren't paying attention to what's in the air but there you go. They could have made better use of the Green end though, I'm sure they've used that area for static previously and there's nothing else to ruin the background.

Main gripe for me was the individuals I was sat with in the FRIAT grandstand. Just obnoxious, ignorant people, when not picking their noses and wiping it on their leg (urgh) or belching, I had to listen to them slagging off the Americans. Apparently they thought the Viper display was crap (despite walking back to their seat partway through, disturbing everyone) and actually went onto social media to say so. One of them clearly said 'I hate Yanks' and then followed it up by saying the CV22 was 'pointless' and they couldn't understand why the Americans would design an aircraft like that. Eventually I decamped to the front of the grandstand to get away from it. Thanks Christ they didn't go on Friday or Monday, seems a waste of their MACH 2 ticket but I was relieved.

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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by HMS Seahawk »

vbombers2 wrote:Have to say that I enjoyed the flying program, shame about Friday but we got an E-3A flypast so it wasn't all bad. Kudos to the A400M display team for stepping up when it seemed that nothing was going to be flying. On Saturday and Sunday the highlights for me were the Mig-21 and Flanker, F-18's were both superb and good to see the Spartan back to it's old tricks.

The static did seem a bit hemmed in by showground related crap but I think this is an unfortunate consequence of an event which needs to cater to non-aviation enthusiasts. You only had to see how many people were out browsing the stalls when displays were on, seems odd to me that folk aren't paying attention to what's in the air but there you go. They could have made better use of the Green end though, I'm sure they've used that area for static previously and there's nothing else to ruin the background.

Main gripe for me was the individuals I was sat with in the FRIAT grandstand. Just obnoxious, ignorant people, when not picking their noses and wiping it on their leg (urgh) or belching, I had to listen to them slagging off the Americans. Apparently they thought the Viper display was crap (despite walking back to their seat partway through, disturbing everyone) and actually went onto social media to say so. One of them clearly said 'I hate Yanks' and then followed it up by saying the CV22 was 'pointless' and they couldn't understand why the Americans would design an aircraft like that. Eventually I decamped to the front of the grandstand to get away from it. Thanks Christ they didn't go on Friday or Monday, seems a waste of their MACH 2 ticket but I was relieved.



Never heard or saw anything like you did in the FRIAT enclosure, where were you sitting before you moved?

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Adraruro
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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by Adraruro »

pbeardmore wrote:Something else to consider is how many customer facing staff really care about the event. I get the impression they are min wage workers brought in via agencies and have no emotional stake re the success of the event. Compare this the the energy and commitment of the staff at mildenall shows. Yes the displays were great but it was also the staff who made it such a great event with genuine goodwill and buzz. DBH should be lookin at such events and trying to bring back these qualities rather than focussing on keeping overheads down.


Yeah, so much minimum wage they are actually giving up holiday, weekends etc and their own money to ensure it goes ahead... I think they call it volunteering???

:mad:

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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by pbeardmore »

Sorry if you think that was insulting people but just because people are volunteering does not justify poor service . (are the security staff volunteers?) Back to the point re lowering the costs to a mimimum. Sometimes, you have to invest in professionals to get a profesional quality of service.
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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by Wissam24 »

vbombers2 wrote:
Main gripe for me was the individuals I was sat with in the FRIAT grandstand. Just obnoxious, ignorant people, when not picking their noses and wiping it on their leg (urgh) or belching, I had to listen to them slagging off the Americans. Apparently they thought the Viper display was crap


Not being funny, but it was
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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by capercaillie »

Wissam24 wrote:
vbombers2 wrote:
Main gripe for me was the individuals I was sat with in the FRIAT grandstand. Just obnoxious, ignorant people, when not picking their noses and wiping it on their leg (urgh) or belching, I had to listen to them slagging off the Americans. Apparently they thought the Viper display was crap


Not being funny, but it was


I hope you don't pick your nose and wipe it on your leg! :sick:
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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by Domvickery »

capercaillie wrote:
I hope you don't pick your nose and wipe it on your leg! :sick:


He’s a flicker

I also agree about the F-16, apart from Saturdays take off (which was downright dangerous and could easily have been red carded) it was quite possibly one of the worst fast jet displays I’ve ever seen
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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by Airshowhammer »

One of my gripes (nothing to do with RIAT) were some of the dutch enthusiasts. Christ alive you'd think their lives depended on getting to the front for a shot. Literally stood infront of me was a bloke who was a good 6ft 4 and got on a tiny step ladder, couldn't believe my eyes. Did have to laugh!

You could see everyone around them were getting a bit cheesed off with the barging around also.

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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by FlankerPhoto »

Common problem, I believe. :down:

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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by Stagger2 »

capercaillie wrote:
Wissam24 wrote:
vbombers2 wrote:
Main gripe for me was the individuals I was sat with in the FRIAT grandstand. Just obnoxious, ignorant people, when not picking their noses and wiping it on their leg (urgh) or belching, I had to listen to them slagging off the Americans. Apparently they thought the Viper display was crap


Not being funny, but it was


I hope you don't pick your nose and wipe it on your leg! :sick:

Unforgiveable waste of good protein! With Gristle-Burgers @ £8.50 (with free CJD topping) who would flick or wipe prime boogers?
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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by UKAirshowTour »

My biggest issue isn’t purely a riat problem it’s just more noticeable at riat. People taking photos but invading your personal space especially Monday. I turned around to get a drink and someone had their camera lense right next to my head. Honestly it’s not enjoyable having people climbing over you to take photos hense why I use the stepladder enclosure for arrivals and just hope there’s some considerate people on the crowd line on show days

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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by Wissam24 »

Domvickery wrote:
capercaillie wrote:
I hope you don't pick your nose and wipe it on your leg! :sick:


He’s a flicker

I also agree about the F-16, apart from Saturdays take off (which was downright dangerous and could easily have been red carded) it was quite possibly one of the worst fast jet displays I’ve ever seen


I think you said it actually wound you up by the end :lol: :lol:
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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by Brevet Cable »

pbeardmore wrote:Something else to consider is how many customer facing staff really care about the event. I get the impression they are min wage workers brought in via agencies and have no emotional stake re the success of the event. Compare this the the energy and commitment of the staff at mildenall shows. Yes the displays were great but it was also the staff who made it such a great event with genuine goodwill and buzz. DBH should be lookin at such events and trying to bring back these qualities rather than focussing on keeping overheads down.

Sorry if you think that was insulting people but just because people are volunteering does not justify poor service . (are the security staff volunteers?) Back to the point re lowering the costs to a mimimum. Sometimes, you have to invest in professionals to get a profesional quality of service.


All the volunteers I saw on the Saturday were enthusiastic & helpful, be they those at the showground entrance & those within the showground itself
You can't conflate the security staff with the volunteers, as they are there to do different things -- I don't want or expect those doing the security checks to be happy chatty people, I expect them to be efficient.

As for 'professionals', who do you mean?
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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by mavvymoo »

Domvickery wrote:
mavvymoo wrote:
Domvickery wrote:I’d suggest to DBH they get rid of the yellow entrance & combine it with red to double the size, I always read about problems at red but on Saturday & Sunday I was in within 3 minutes

Can’t see that happening. Yellow is not only the dedicated entrance for coaches and the Swindon shuttle buses, but also the nearest entrance for the official campsite and for the hundreds of cadets who are accommodated next to the campsite. Perhaps they should increase the number of entry corridors at Red?


The red entrance is literally across the road from the official campsite, I've stayed there for the last 3 years, last year they had a bridge over the road so pedestrians could use red entrance, it was nearly 1km to walk from the campsites entrance to the pedestrian gate, then you have to walk down to the yellow entrance to then walk more to enter the show ground at the red entrance anyway, my phone said I'd walked nearly 1.5km just to get on to the show ground, moving it would be so much easier, there's a few gates pedestrians could use to enter one again being literally opposite the site.


We also used the red entrance and footbridge from the campsite last year, and thought it strange having to walk past two other gates before being able to enter the yellow gate, but as I mentioned, the yellow gate is also used for day tripping coaches, shuttle buses and the cadets so for that reason I can't see them merging as you'd then have the coach and shuttle traffic, official camp site attenders, cadets and staff plus those using the red car park all going through the red entrance.

Maybe having the entrance for the western end of the airfield directly opposite the cadets' campsite is a risk management decision?
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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by Domvickery »

Wissam24 wrote:
Domvickery wrote:
capercaillie wrote:
I hope you don't pick your nose and wipe it on your leg! :sick:


He’s a flicker

I also agree about the F-16, apart from Saturdays take off (which was downright dangerous and could easily have been red carded) it was quite possibly one of the worst fast jet displays I’ve ever seen


I think you said it actually wound you up by the end :lol: :lol:


Tis true
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Re: RIAT 2019 - Issues

Post by pb643 »

pbeardmore wrote:Sorry if you think that was insulting people but just because people are volunteering does not justify poor service . (are the security staff volunteers?) Back to the point re lowering the costs to a mimimum. Sometimes, you have to invest in professionals to get a profesional quality of service.


I am happy to be corrected, but I think it is reasonably clear who are volunteers, who are contracted in and who are military. Volunteers do a lot of specific tasks around the site but in relatively small teams, manning information desks, airfield tasks etc. Contractor's staff provide security, car parking, those tasks requiring lots of bodies. This year I notice contractors had taken over ticket checking from volunteers, no idea why. The military does the bag checks. On each entrance, there will also be a number of RIAT volunteers trying to manage the whole thing.

In my personal experience, it is the contractor's staff that let things down. For example on Friday morning a security guy insisting that I remove my rucksack and soaking poncho, despite it pouring at the time. He then wafted his wand around me, with it buzzing many times, but made no attempt to identify what was in my pockets. Fortunately, the RAF guy had more sense and suggested that I get my things back together before I got wetter.

I suspect this also explains why it took us 30 minutes to leave the red car park on Friday at about 4.30 and we were only about 10 rows back from the front, but there was only one character doing anything to attempt to manage the whole thing.

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