British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Re: British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Postby tommc on Sat 30 Nov 2019, 10:22 am

iainpeden wrote:
Unknown74 wrote:Just out of interest and curiosity, can anyone tie up the 74 Sqdn Serials and tailcodes please for the F4J(UK)s as I am shortly due to start the Revell Model of the F4J as an RAF F4J(UK) and am interested to make it with tailcode T for Tiger(Surprise, Surprise) so wondered which serial it was please...…...


ZE350/T but be careful because I seem to remember that one didn't have the intake mounted ECM fairings and I can't find which one. If you go on to Britmodeller somebody will know.


ZE350 was the only one without the intake fairings fitted.
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TomMc
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Re: British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Postby Unknown74 on Sat 30 Nov 2019, 9:07 pm

What a great idea for a "What If " project - What if ZE350 had the ECM Fairings fitted.
Unknown74

Re: British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Postby tommc on Sun 01 Dec 2019, 6:15 pm

Unknown74 wrote:What a great idea for a "What If " project - What if ZE350 had the ECM Fairings fitted.


I wonder how many people have inadvertently already done this?
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TomMc
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Re: British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Postby Marathon Milkshake on Mon 02 Dec 2019, 12:27 am

tommc wrote:
iainpeden wrote:I have also just flicked quickly through a few books and most of the photos of the F-4J(UK) {never wasPhantom F.3} and most are either clean or just have the centreline tank.


It never was F-4J(UK) either.

It was just F-4J.


No, it was simply.......a Tiger!

As for the wing tanks, 360 had them on at manston...
ImagePHANTOM F-4J (UK) ZE360 O (US NAVY 155574) by Gaz West, on Flickr

I belive the went off to Ireland or some such..
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Re: British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Postby iainpeden on Mon 02 Dec 2019, 8:35 am

tommc wrote:
Unknown74 wrote:What a great idea for a "What If " project - What if ZE350 had the ECM Fairings fitted.


I wonder how many people have inadvertently already done this?


I have just checked my models and have to plead guilty, m'lud.
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Re: British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Postby Skyflash on Mon 02 Dec 2019, 8:39 am

Rich.B wrote:
tommc wrote:
iainpeden wrote:I have also just flicked quickly through a few books and most of the photos of the F-4J(UK) {never wasPhantom F.3} and most are either clean or just have the centreline tank.


It never was F-4J(UK) either.

It was just F-4J.

The term UK was not really spoken back in the years we had the Phantom. It a new word really . Back in the day it was still British or England.
We had British rail, British airways. British leyland etc etc. The term UK is pretty new really


A new term!?

It’s been in use since 1801! :roll: :grin:

Please also note that ‘Britain’, ‘England’ and ‘UK’ all denote different things. Overlapping things, sure, but different.
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Re: British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Postby capercaillie on Mon 02 Dec 2019, 11:02 am

Unknown74 wrote:Just out of interest and curiosity, can anyone tie up the 74 Sqdn Serials and tailcodes please for the F4J(UK)s as I am shortly due to start the Revell Model of the F4J as an RAF F4J(UK) and am interested to make it with tailcode T for Tiger(Surprise, Surprise) so wondered which serial it was please...…...



If I remember correctly the first eight were coded T,I,G,E,R,S,Q,N for some reason I cannot remember, possibly some RAF typewriter that was being used at the time or similar. :dunno:
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Re: British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Postby tommc on Mon 02 Dec 2019, 4:58 pm

capercaillie wrote:
Unknown74 wrote:Just out of interest and curiosity, can anyone tie up the 74 Sqdn Serials and tailcodes please for the F4J(UK)s as I am shortly due to start the Revell Model of the F4J as an RAF F4J(UK) and am interested to make it with tailcode T for Tiger(Surprise, Surprise) so wondered which serial it was please...…...



If I remember correctly the first eight were coded T,I,G,E,R,S,Q,N for some reason I cannot remember, possibly some RAF typewriter that was being used at the time or similar. :dunno:


http://www.wattisham.org.uk/movements_1984.htm has the full list
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TomMc
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Re: British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Postby BPAG on Mon 02 Dec 2019, 5:42 pm

Unknown74 wrote:I am shortly due to start the Revell Model of the F4J as an RAF F4J(UK) and am interested to make it with tailcode T for Tiger(Surprise, Surprise) so wondered which serial it was please...…...


T for Tiger was ZE350, the cockpit section of which is now resident in Australia (and is another one back in US colours). Seen here in October 2019-

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Re: British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Postby tc2324 on Mon 02 Dec 2019, 7:59 pm

Read through the recent posts with interest and felt I should post a reply to clarify a few comments made and confirm if the information supplied is indeed 100% correct. Now I`m not going to boast that I`m a major authority on the subject matter, it`s still an ongoing learning process. However I`ve had access to both air and ground crews over the years, asked a lot of questions and carried out research on the F-4J(UK) during its procurement stages and service with 74 Squadron, so I`d like to think that my conclusions so far are reasonably sound and logical.

So let`s start off with the awesome photo by Colin Collis posted at the beginning of these recent post exchange. The photo was taken probably sometime early during 1989 as ZE360 was only repainted in standard AD grey within the last 18 months or so of her service life before being retired at Manston Fire School. The other aircraft is ZE359/J which you will now find in the American Air Museum at Duxford repainted in the scheme she wore while serving with VF-74 in the US Navy. Not only is this picture an excellent colour comparison between the RAF AD grey and the NORIS, (North Island), paint shop job, but it`s also a photo of the last two intact F-4J(UK)`s still in existence. (Depending on how intact you feel ZE360 is?)

Again the information on ZE350/T is correct regarding the lack of ALG-126 DECM fairings on the intakes, it had served with the Naval Air Test Center (NATC) at NAS Patuxent River, so being a test aircraft they were never fitted for operational use. Saying that, all the aircraft that had the fairings were empty anyway as it wasn`t a requirement in the procurement process.

The story of the under-slung Phantom being ditched in the bay off NORIS is correct and may I add that it was witnessed by members of the Royal Family aboard the Royal Yacht Britannia who were sailing near by on a tour of the West Coast. Because of this incident, all further Phantom deliveries for refurbishment were flown in under their own steam. Not all the Phantoms were stored in the desert, some were actually stored at NORIS, BuNo 155574, (ZE360), being one of them.

Once refurbished the Phantoms, in batches of three, were sent to the NORIS paint shop. The RAF had supplied the colour specifications they wanted but the Americans didn`t have the shades so started to mix their supplies of FS paints to try and get the best match. What you will find is that no three Phantoms emerged from the paint shop in the same shade as each time three aircraft were released, someone on the RAF team would point out that it needed to be a shade darker and so the painters would go back and remix the paints again in time for the next three Phantoms. The bright yellow primer undercoat and only one layer of `grey` overcoat applied, (which was the wrong shade of grey anyway), are the recognised reasons among the Squadron for the blue/green tinge.

Touching on the designation of the type, as suggested, F3 was never used. It was discussed/suggested early on in the procurement process, however with the advent of the introduction of the Tornado F.3 coming soon and knowing that personnel have a knack of simplifying and shortening aircraft types designations, having two different `F3` types flying around could lead to confusion for some.
Now regarding whether it was referred to as F-4J(UK) or not? I know from conversations with the squadron aircrew and groundcrew that they referred to the Phantom as either the `F-4J` or just `J`. Manuals and logbooks also state just the F-4J prefix. However my understanding from conversations with the people that were actually part of the procurement process is that the types official designation with the MoD and RAF was F-4J(UK). It maybe and I would suggest that as all the manuals and log books were transferred/copied from the US, the `UK` prefix just wasn`t included/added as it wasn`t a detail that was required for that specific documentation. (I have reached out to contacts to confirm this was the case and I`ll let you know in due course).

While the airframes were American F-4J`s, what 74 received and indeed what the RAF asked for, was actually a hybrid of the J, S and you could argue FGR.2 variants. The basis of the airframe and engines were from the `J` model, however a number of `S` upgrades were incorporated into the refurbishment program. The Phantoms were put through what essentially was the F-4S service life extension program, (SLEP) when being refurbished at NARF, (Naval Air Rework Facility), including upgrading the radars from the standard `J` AWG-10 radar to the `S`s AWG-10B. And then you have to add in the British requirements like the Skyflash missile and SUU-23A gun pod wiring, plus the TESS, (telescopic sighting system), which were all fitted, (or due to be fitted in the case of TESS), to the FGR.2.

As for the wing tank question, I have spoken to aircrew that will swear blind they operated the Phantoms in Bravo fit, (Center Line tank only). You then walk across the bar to another table and another `J` aircrew will swear blind they only flew the J`s in Charlie fit, (Sergeant Fletcher wing tank configuration). The simple answer is that they flew in both fits depending on the sortie being undertaken. If planning to go supersonic or on a DACM mission, Bravo fit was the best choice as the g loading on the wing tanks was limited to 3g, (if I remember correctly), which is not conducive to high speed or tight turns. Obviously long flights or sorties dictated Charlie fit with the wing tanks. One of the `J` myths on aviation forums is that they only flew in Bravo fit because there are hardly find any photo`s of J`s in Charlie fit. This is wrong and I would suggest that the number of photos showing both Bravo and Charlie fits is about even providing you look hard enough.

Whether you want to call it F-4J(UK), F-4J or just the J, one thing is certain, the 15 Phantom`s operated by 74 Squadron were a very special and unique type to serve a nations airforce. Out of all the F-4 Phantom restoration projects that have come and gone, this endeavour is perhaps one of the most important regarding British Phantom operational history.
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Re: British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Postby iainpeden on Mon 02 Dec 2019, 8:31 pm

Thanks - looking forward to seeing them together again. Any update on the FGR.2 you're looking for?
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Re: British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Postby tc2324 on Mon 02 Dec 2019, 9:00 pm

iainpeden wrote:Thanks - looking forward to seeing them together again. Any update on the FGR.2 you're looking for?


I have not heard any news regarding an FGR.2 so I`ll pass that question over to my associates at the BPAG. :biggrin:
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tc2324

Re: British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Postby Unknown74 on Mon 02 Dec 2019, 9:25 pm

Hi Guys, with the current topic being F-4J(UK)s, and I have seen brief mention of the Aircraft I am asking about, I saw ZE359 J possibly just after it had newly arrived at Duxford at the Museums Classic Fighter Show way back in Summer 1991 and am asking does anyone remember what it's date of delivery to Duxford was and did it actually fly in? or roaded?
Unknown74

Re: British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Postby tc2324 on Mon 02 Dec 2019, 9:53 pm

Unknown74 wrote:Hi Guys, with the current topic being F-4J(UK)s, and I have seen brief mention of the Aircraft I am asking about, I saw ZE359 J possibly just after it had newly arrived at Duxford at the Museums Classic Fighter Show way back in Summer 1991 and am asking does anyone remember what it's date of delivery to Duxford was and did it actually fly in? or roaded?


It was flown in, but no idea of date, can only say early 1991.
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tc2324

Re: British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Postby tommc on Tue 03 Dec 2019, 8:12 am

tc2324 wrote:
Unknown74 wrote:Hi Guys, with the current topic being F-4J(UK)s, and I have seen brief mention of the Aircraft I am asking about, I saw ZE359 J possibly just after it had newly arrived at Duxford at the Museums Classic Fighter Show way back in Summer 1991 and am asking does anyone remember what it's date of delivery to Duxford was and did it actually fly in? or roaded?


It was flown in, but no idea of date, can only say early 1991.


10/06/1991 ( http://www.ukserials.com/ )
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TomMc
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Re: British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Postby tc2324 on Tue 03 Dec 2019, 9:18 am

tommc wrote:
tc2324 wrote:
Unknown74 wrote:Hi Guys, with the current topic being F-4J(UK)s, and I have seen brief mention of the Aircraft I am asking about, I saw ZE359 J possibly just after it had newly arrived at Duxford at the Museums Classic Fighter Show way back in Summer 1991 and am asking does anyone remember what it's date of delivery to Duxford was and did it actually fly in? or roaded?


It was flown in, but no idea of date, can only say early 1991.


10/06/1991 ( http://www.ukserials.com/ )


An excellent resource tommc :up:
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tc2324

Re: British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Postby JagRigger on Tue 03 Dec 2019, 10:59 am

Not sure if anyone has seen this site, but there is a link to the 1985 RAF Yearbook with an article on the F4J procurement and a couple of pics of 'T'

http://aviationarchives.blogspot.com/search?q=yearbook
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Re: British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Postby Wyvernfan on Tue 03 Dec 2019, 5:15 pm

tc2324 wrote:
Unknown74 wrote:Hi Guys, with the current topic being F-4J(UK)s, and I have seen brief mention of the Aircraft I am asking about, I saw ZE359 J possibly just after it had newly arrived at Duxford at the Museums Classic Fighter Show way back in Summer 1991 and am asking does anyone remember what it's date of delivery to Duxford was and did it actually fly in? or roaded?


It was flown in, but no idea of date, can only say early 1991.



Yes flown in, and I think with none other than John Allison at the helm. I remember seeing the RAF installing the mobile arrester gear either side of the runway but didn’t realise what type was actually going to be arriving.


Rob
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Re: British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Postby tommc on Tue 03 Dec 2019, 7:16 pm

Wyvernfan wrote:Yes flown in, and I think with none other than John Allison at the helm. I remember seeing the RAF installing the mobile arrester gear either side of the runway but didn’t realise what type was actually going to be arriving.


Rob


No, it was "Sqn Ldr Dai Whittington" and "Sqn Ldr Dave Loveridge" who flew it into Duxford (according to BAR Vol.33 No.8).
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TomMc
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Re: British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Postby Wyvernfan on Wed 04 Dec 2019, 7:18 am

Ok Thanks. I must be thinking of the other F.4 that flew in then!


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Re: British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Postby tc2324 on Thu 05 Dec 2019, 11:04 am

Imagehttps://flic.kr/p/2hV2Ddr

Just a quick update and reminder regarding the Associations restoration page and webstore and letting you know that kids t-shirts, hoodies and a few other stocking fillers have been added.
So please take a look and HELP contribute to the fund raising effort.

http://74sqdn.tk/ze360-restoration-page/

https://teespring.com/stores/74f-tiger360-webstore

Thanks for looking and have a great Christmas and Happy New Year.


Imagehttps://flic.kr/p/2hV3QuiImagehttps://flic.kr/p/2hV2DUg
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tc2324

Re: British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Postby tc2324 on Sat 07 Dec 2019, 1:27 pm

tc2324 wrote:Now regarding whether it was referred to as F-4J(UK) or not? I know from conversations with the squadron aircrew and groundcrew that they referred to the Phantom as either the `F-4J` or just `J`. Manuals and logbooks also state just the F-4J prefix. However my understanding from conversations with the people that were actually part of the procurement process is that the types official designation with the MoD and RAF was F-4J(UK). It maybe and I would suggest that as all the manuals and log books were transferred/copied from the US, the `UK` prefix just wasn`t included/added as it wasn`t a detail that was required for that specific documentation. (I have reached out to contacts to confirm this was the case and I`ll let you know in due course).


Just confirming to those interested that the J`s `official` designation was indeed F-4J(uk) and that as suggested above, aircrew, groundcrew and manuals just never used the '(uk)' bit.
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Re: British Phantom Aviation Group (Official Topic)

Postby BPAG on Mon 09 Dec 2019, 6:14 pm

A few selected images from the 74 Squadron Association archives of the British F-4J`s going through NARF (Naval Air Rework Facility) at NORIS (North Island) San Diego, California during the 1980s.

Image

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Image

Image
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