Aeralis Red Arrows?

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Berf
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Aeralis Red Arrows?

Post by Berf »

Yup it's the Daily Mail... but maybe?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... rrows.html

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DerekF
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Re: Aeralis Red Arrows?

Post by DerekF »

I saw this and there are so many errors in the article it's difficult to work out what the real story is. £200k isn't going to get them far though. With so much flying training being done more safely, efficiently, and cheaper on simulators these days, it's hard to see any future in a nine training aircraft display team. When the RAF only have ten Texans, and 28 Hawk T.2s a 9-ship is a luxury that will become increasingly difficult to justify.

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ericbee123
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Re: Aeralis Red Arrows?

Post by ericbee123 »

To add some context.

The MOD has just awarded a contract for £220 Million to BAE to provide 10 simulators for training Typhoon pilots.

The MOD has awarded £200,000 to Aeralis to knock up some fancy pictures of what they think they can make, maybe.
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.

farnboroughrob
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Re: Aeralis Red Arrows?

Post by farnboroughrob »

So the RAF has no need for a Hawk T1 replacement for anything but the reds? It is training so few aircrew after all. They could always privatise the reds and put the aircraft on the civil register and the RAF could loan them the pilots and crews? A totally new aircraft would cost billions to develop and would be in an already crowded trainer market. Just look at the Textron Scorpion to see how a trainer/light attack aircraft can become a dead end.

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Re: Aeralis Red Arrows?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Can see The Blades being co-opted into some private-military partnership. Maybe expand their numbers, paint them red, allow sponsorship, etc. The Red Arrowblades. You heard it here first.

Unknown74
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Re: Aeralis Red Arrows?

Post by Unknown74 »

That does actually look interesting despite the Daily Mail link I think it might have wings?!………

Gt5500
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Re: Aeralis Red Arrows?

Post by Gt5500 »

Unknown74 wrote:
Wed 15 Sep 2021, 7:10 pm
That does actually look interesting despite the Daily Mail link I think it might have wings?!………
Not sure £200k would cover the development costs of an aileron let alone the wings...

Aquarious
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Re: Aeralis Red Arrows?

Post by Aquarious »

The following is a quote from the Aeralis website:

'AERALIS, the transformational British military jet developer has agreed a three-year contract with the Royal Air Force’s Rapid Capabilities Office (RCO) for research and development into a new modular approach to the design and development of future aircraft. The RCO will support the requirements and design review process to gain an understanding of how AERALIS defines the ways in which agile, modular, commercially-driven aircraft design can develop and certify a broad range of future aircraft systems that could support the RAF’s ambition to rationalise its future fleet.'

First of all it makes no mention of a Red Arrows replacement. Secondly, £200k over 3 years wouldn't even pay for a designer never mind all of the additional costs that go with it including a desk. Finally, I'll bet that the likes of Corgi spend a large proportion of that cost researching and tooling up for the release of a new model.

The automotive industry has tried to take a modular approach to car production and this has had limited success eg Audi/Skoda sharing a chassis on some models, powertrain, engines and the like but the shell and fit out are all different. They have also tried this for other repetitive parts such as light clusters but most cars end up with different light clusters to suit the body shape etc. Lets see how it plays out.

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Re: Aeralis Red Arrows?

Post by GeeRam »

DerekF wrote:
Mon 13 Sep 2021, 9:17 am
With so much flying training being done more safely, efficiently, and cheaper on simulators these days, it's hard to see any future in a nine training aircraft display team. When the RAF only have ten Texans, and 28 Hawk T.2s a 9-ship is a luxury that will become increasingly difficult to justify.
I think we've reached that 'difficult to justify' point already.

The Reds will celebrate their 60th Anniversary in July 2025......and I think they might just survive long enough to complete that 60th year in 2025.

I'll be surprised if they are still around to display in 2026.

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toom317
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Re: Aeralis Red Arrows?

Post by toom317 »

DerekF wrote:
Mon 13 Sep 2021, 9:17 am
When the RAF only have ten Texans, and 28 Hawk T.2s a 9-ship is a luxury that will become increasingly difficult to justify.
With so few aircraft/pilots in the RAF nowadays, can the RAF justify having 9 pilots, who will probably come from the Typhoon/F35 fleet, tied up with display flying?
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Re: Aeralis Red Arrows?

Post by Berf »

Maybe the RAF could not but UK plc could if the Reds were used more for promoting the UK abroad

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speedbird2639
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Re: Aeralis Red Arrows?

Post by speedbird2639 »

Aquarious wrote:
Thu 16 Sep 2021, 6:15 pm
tried to take a modular approach to car production and this has had limited success eg Audi/Skoda sharing a chassis on some models, powertrain, engines and the like but the shell and fit out are all different.
Slight thread drift but 'limited success'? Lol! It revolutionised car production and was widely adopted by every mass manufacturer. Porsche were struggling to make a profit so they spoke with Toyota and asked them how they make so much money. Toyota told them to use as many components across as many models as possible. Yes details like light clusters are different but all the 'oily bits' are shared. In the Volkswagen Audi Group example you give a Skoda Fabia is basically also a Audi A1, a SEAT Ibiza and a VW Polo; a VW Golf is A SEAT Leon, a Audi A3, a Skoda Octavia etc all the way up to a Bentley being a rebodied Audi A8.

Regarding the Reds I agree they should be used more and should be repositioned to something more akin to the USAF 'Thunderbirds' - more prominence of the Union flag on the aircraft etc

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Re: Aeralis Red Arrows?

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speedbird2639
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Re: Aeralis Red Arrows?

Post by VRT Southend Vulcan »

Aquarious wrote:
Thu 16 Sep 2021, 6:15 pm
Finally, I'll bet that the likes of Corgi spend a large proportion of that cost researching and tooling up for the release of a new model.
You’re not a million miles (or pounds) off. I spoke with Corgi some years ago about the costs of producing models and even then they were talking circa £60-70K for the tooling to bring a new model to market.

AERALIS are doing some research and writing a report. They’re not saying they’ll be making anything.

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ericbee123
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Re: Aeralis Red Arrows?

Post by ericbee123 »

Some more context.
BAE Systems and Rolls-Royce will undertake concept and design work for new Royal Navy nuclear submarines.

Two contracts worth £85 million each have been awarded to BAE Systems and Rolls-Royce to deliver design and concept work for a future Class of Royal Navy submarine.
It’s costing the MOD £170 million to design a submarine concept ( not an actual submarine , just a concept ). I predict it will be black, tubular in shape and have a bump in the middle , like every other submarine the RN have ever had !!

£200,000 for a couple of pictures of a red aircraft looks like a bargain !
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.

Gt5500
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Re: Aeralis Red Arrows?

Post by Gt5500 »

The mind boggles how anyone can justify that amount of money on a concept.

BossMann
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Re: Aeralis Red Arrows?

Post by BossMann »

I apologise if this has already been discussed but why can the Red Arrows not use the Hawk T2?
The Indian Air Force Aerobatic team the 'Surya Kiran' use the Hawk T2 so it is clearly an airshow performer???

Mike
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Re: Aeralis Red Arrows?

Post by Mike »

Because they would need to buy at least 15 more T2s to re-equip the Reds for the next 30-40 years

BossMann
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Re: Aeralis Red Arrows?

Post by BossMann »

Mike wrote:
Tue 21 Sep 2021, 3:11 pm
Because they would need to buy at least 15 more T2s to re-equip the Reds for the next 30-40 years
so its a price thing rather than the T2 being unsuitable aircraft for the team - thank you for clarifying!

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Re: Aeralis Red Arrows?

Post by Berf »

I am sure the MoD beancounters would be only too happy to be rid of the Red Arrows and the Memorial Flight. It would only be public opinion and an outcry that would prevent it.

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Re: Aeralis Red Arrows?

Post by Wrexham Mackem »

BossMann wrote:
Tue 21 Sep 2021, 3:05 pm
I apologise if this has already been discussed but why can the Red Arrows not use the Hawk T2?
The Indian Air Force Aerobatic team the 'Surya Kiran' use the Hawk T2 so it is clearly an airshow performer???
Yeah, my understanding is that they are the airframe equivalent of a T2, but without a lot of the internal simulation kit that a T2 carries. So simpler and cheaper. Probably still too dear, I'm guessing.
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GeeRam
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Re: Aeralis Red Arrows?

Post by GeeRam »

Berf wrote:
Tue 21 Sep 2021, 4:14 pm
I am sure the MoD beancounters would be only too happy to be rid of the Red Arrows and the Memorial Flight. It would only be public opinion and an outcry that would prevent it.
Perhaps it's about time that the public were made to understand that the size of the RAF today simply doesn't justify having a dedicated 9-ship full time display team....(and not one that will be soon flying an aircraft that will no longer be in RAF service other than that display team - they have BBMF covering the historic stuff after all!)

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Re: Aeralis Red Arrows?

Post by pbeardmore »

Ive still got many of the classic docs from the 80s on VHS where the Reds were pushed as a marketing tool both for Hawk sales and the wider British aircraft industry. That justification has surely gone. It's ironic that cuts to front line services seem to go almot unnoticed by the public and the media and yet, if the Reds were cut or dimished in any way, you just know there would be a national outcry. In a way, they have been too successful. They are meant to push/promote other interests rather than be an untouchble entitity in their own right.
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Re: Aeralis Red Arrows?

Post by vulcanshammer »

Wasn't the Eiffel tower only meant to stand for 20 years? Built for the World Fair, purely as a promotional tool. The fact that Hawks are no longer in production and sadly we no longer have an aircraft industry, doesn't mean the Red Arrows don't still serve a purpose. Neither does a display team have to serve as a barometer to the size of a nations air force.

I am sure there are many people who would love to cut them from the RAF overheads column; however I assume it is a simple case of maths. If they are deemed to bring in more cash/investment than they take to maintain and operate, then why would we look to bin them? Then there is a small matter of national pride. Which IMO is impossible to quantify the value of.

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