Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

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silver fox
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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by silver fox »

Mad Dan wrote: But I don't recall him saying anything about the Canberra, which I am pretty sure performed some "interesting" missions in the late 1950s.


Canberras did as you say perform some interesting missions in their own right and when it comes to high level recce, the Canberra crews did on more than one occasion take pics of U2s from above, to the great delight of said Canberra crews.

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phreakf4
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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by phreakf4 »

Vodka wrote:Lavochkin La-17? I recorded the programme but don't recall seeing that in there?

. . and isn't a La-17 a target drone? Which has no passing resemblance to a Mig 15? Guess i'll have to have another look at the footage.

Personally I thought it was a very good little program. The shot of the JP was sublime slipping through the clouds, lovely stuff. The presenter I thought was good, a pleasant voice , easy to listen to and just that slight excitement in his voice to add to the filming. Its 9pm prime time on a Friday night for the paying public not a rivet counters delight and thank heavens for that!

If you want to watch a rivet counters film, write the idea on paper and get funding for it and see how far the eye brows get raised when you say your target audience is for :tumbleweed:

Roll on next week! :smile:


Now who's nit-picking? My point was (as stated in my original post) not whether they were La-15s or La-17s but that "Joe Public" would not have noticed that they were not MiGs and that the La-15 formation take-off shot appears in almost every documentary in which the Mig-15 is in any way featured and probably always will and yes, I typed La-17 rather than La-15, but I am, regrettably, not perfect :biggrin: The last thing I want to watch is a "rivet counter's programme".

I agree that the presenter's voice was pleasant enough to listen to and he seemed to be genuinely interested by and enthusiastic about the subject matter, but so are the commentators at most events and sports, yet we do not see their faces on the screen. In my opinion, the subject matter (generally, not just in aviation matters) should be accorded greater prominence than the "presenter", else it risks becoming the "* show" (* insert name of presenter)

David Attenborough seems always to get the perfect balance between the two......
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121decimal5
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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by 121decimal5 »

DanO1978 wrote:Last 15 minutes much, much better. Didn't know about the "Jiujitsu" B-45 missions, nor RAF pilots flying U-2 missions...


I'd been reading about this only a week before hand. The following is well worth reading:
By Any Means Necessary by William E Burrows

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Any-Means-Neces ... 116&sr=1-2

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neilesmith
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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by neilesmith »

Can anyone answer my friends question:
I didn't know that RAF pilots flew the U2 for the Americans.
What I did puzzle about was why did they fly out of Turkey when they had an RAF base at Akrotiri in Cyprus where the Yanks still fly, or did, the U2 from there.
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Mad Dan
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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by Mad Dan »

What I did puzzle about was why did they fly out of Turkey?

We are talking about the late 1950s and beginning of the 1960s...and a project that was extremely secret. Incirlik in Turkey was relatively secure and thus used for a lot of intelligence gathering efforts. Including the C-130A-IIs which stooged around off the Soviet border; the EB-47E(TT) aircraft that gathered telemetry data relating to Russian missile testing; the RB/ERB-47Hs; and, of course, the infamous U-2. It was convenient for borderline flights and as a jumping off point for deployments to places like Peshawar and Charbatia, which is where some overflights started. Plus, some U-2 missions monitored the Suez Canal crisis - and it would have been extremely embarrassing for our American cousins had they staged those to/from Akrotiri, which is where many aircraft involved in Suez operations were based.

What is also often forgotten is that Det A initially came to Lakenheath in May 1956 but left after six weeks for Wiesbaden when their presence was compromised by magazines like Flight and Air Pictorial. I'm pretty certain without checking that the initial overflights of Warsaw Pact states were accomplished from Wiesbaden but the Det soon moved to Giebelstadt which offered greater security. Det B was at Incirlik from September 1956.
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neilesmith
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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by neilesmith »

Mad Dan wrote:
What I did puzzle about was why did they fly out of Turkey?

We are talking about the late 1950s and beginning of the 1960s...and a project that was extremely secret. Incirlik in Turkey was relatively secure and thus used for a lot of intelligence gathering efforts. Including the C-130A-IIs which stooged around off the Soviet border; the EB-47E(TT) aircraft that gathered telemetry data relating to Russian missile testing; the RB/ERB-47Hs; and, of course, the infamous U-2. It was convenient for borderline flights and as a jumping off point for deployments to places like Peshawar and Charbatia, which is where some overflights started. Plus, some U-2 missions monitored the Suez Canal crisis - and it would have been extremely embarrassing for our American cousins had they staged those to/from Akrotiri, which is where many aircraft involved in Suez operations were based.

What is also often forgotten is that Det A initially came to Lakenheath in May 1956 but left after six weeks for Wiesbaden when their presence was compromised by magazines like Flight and Air Pictorial. I'm pretty certain without checking that the initial overflights of Warsaw Pact states were accomplished from Wiesbaden but the Det soon moved to Giebelstadt which offered greater security. Det B was at Incirlik from September 1956.

Thanks, I will pass this on to my friend.
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Comet102
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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by Comet102 »

Episode 2 is on in 7 minutes.

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tankbuster81
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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by tankbuster81 »

The Lincoln shot down by 2 Migs looked remarkably like a B17 to me??…...
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hmeasures
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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by hmeasures »

tankbuster81 wrote:The Lincoln shot down by 2 Migs looked remarkably like a B17 to me??…...


I thought so, too...

Gregg
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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by Gregg »

Me too.

A very disappointing program.

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DanH
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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by DanH »

Shame that they showed XM603 in such a run down state. The poor old girl.
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106500
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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by 106500 »

Some terrific camera work at Brunty though..... The Lightning boys must be proud!

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Lee606
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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by Lee606 »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... Episode_2/

Its on BBC IPlayer if you missed it (like me)

That clip of the B-17 geting shot down gets used all the time,It was even in the Memphis Belle film if i recall.
There obv isnt footage of a Shackleton being shot up so maybe they should just have shown a shack flying instead.

Superb footage from Bruntingthorpe of the Lightnings,Loved the camera on the tailplanes as the reheat kicked in :yahoo:
Hopefully they will have them out on the runway tomorrow with the rest for the photoshoots :cool:

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Lee606
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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

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SCARECROW 451
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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by SCARECROW 451 »

Just a pity the producers seem to think the Cold War ended when they implied it did !
We must have wasted our time at Honington in the bunker in the late 80's !

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st24
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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by st24 »

SCARECROW 451 wrote:Just a pity the producers seem to think the Cold War ended when they implied it did !
We must have wasted our time at Honington in the bunker in the late 80's !


Indeed, surely the Buccaneer and without doubt the Harrier deserved a mention, after all they were the last purely British cold war combat types....

Not a bad programme I suppose but with all the decent Vulcans still extant, why did they choose to show poor old '603 in it's current, crappy state??... :question:
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DanH
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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by DanH »

st24 wrote:Not a bad programme I suppose but with all the decent Vulcans still extant, why did they choose to show poor old '603 in it's current, crappy state??... :question:


When you think about it, not only are there plenty of examples in better condition but there are also many that I'd imagine would have been considerably easier to gain access to. The two things that set '603 apart are the anti-flash white pain scheme and the fact that it is at Woodford where the type was developed, so they obviously felt it important to highlight one of those points. Although it was hard to tell which from the programme.
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aviodromefriend
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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by aviodromefriend »

DanH wrote:
st24 wrote:Not a bad programme I suppose but with all the decent Vulcans still extant, why did they choose to show poor old '603 in it's current, crappy state??... :question:


When you think about it, not only are there plenty of examples in better condition but there are also many that I'd imagine would have been considerably easier to gain access to. The two things that set '603 apart are the anti-flash white pain scheme and the fact that it is at Woodford where the type was developed, so they obviously felt it important to highlight one of those points. Although it was hard to tell which from the programme.
The program ended with the subject of the British Aviation Industry not being such a world beater anymore. As such an aircraft in such a state to illustrate this, says more than, let's say a blinckering G-VLCN.
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Hammy
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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by Hammy »

aviodromefriend wrote:
DanH wrote:
st24 wrote:Not a bad programme I suppose but with all the decent Vulcans still extant, why did they choose to show poor old '603 in it's current, crappy state??... :question:


When you think about it, not only are there plenty of examples in better condition but there are also many that I'd imagine would have been considerably easier to gain access to. The two things that set '603 apart are the anti-flash white pain scheme and the fact that it is at Woodford where the type was developed, so they obviously felt it important to highlight one of those points. Although it was hard to tell which from the programme.
The program ended with the subject of the British Aviation Industry not being such a world beater anymore. As such an aircraft in such a state to illustrate this, says more than, let's say a blinckering G-VLCN.


Indeed, the choosing of a soon-to-be-demolished Woodford and XM603 looking very sorry for herself were an excellent visual metaphor.
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Gregg
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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by Gregg »

G-VLCN is XH558. Not sure the an airworthy Vulcan is the right metaphor.

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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by Reds Rolling »

st24 wrote:Not a bad programme I suppose but with all the decent Vulcans still extant, why did they choose to show poor old '603 in it's current, crappy state??... :question:

My thoughts exactly. XM655 would have been better, and they could have probably shown the cramped conditions in the cockpit that the ex-pilot spoke of.

aviodromefriend wrote:The program ended with the subject of the British Aviation Industry not being such a world beater anymore. As such an aircraft in such a state to illustrate this, says more than, let's say a blinckering G-VLCN.

So why then did they later show a Lightning looking pristine in a QRA shed and doing a fast taxi, when surely they should have shown some old wreck rotting in a garden?

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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by Hammy »

Reds Rolling wrote:
st24 wrote:Not a bad programme I suppose but with all the decent Vulcans still extant, why did they choose to show poor old '603 in it's current, crappy state??... :question:

My thoughts exactly. XM655 would have been better, and they could have probably shown the cramped conditions in the cockpit that the ex-pilot spoke of.

aviodromefriend wrote:The program ended with the subject of the British Aviation Industry not being such a world beater anymore. As such an aircraft in such a state to illustrate this, says more than, let's say a blinckering G-VLCN.

So why then did they later show a Lightning looking pristine in a QRA shed and doing a fast taxi, when surely they should have shown some old wreck rotting in a garden?


Because there was no need for a visual metaphor at that point. The Lightning piece mainly concerned the aircraft's performance etc as the RAF's first supersonic fighter, hence the visit to Bruntingthorpe - Had there been an airworthy Lightning somewhere in the UK, then that would have featured instead of XS904.
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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by NAM Updater »

As partly alluded to in an earlier post I suspect (though I could be wrong) that filming 603 might also have been a convenience issue, did they not film some internal hangar shots at Woodford of the Avro facility (?) and some at the Avro Heritage Centre / Archive in the previous programme; as a consequence it may have made sense to fit it in whilst already filming at Woodford.

NAM’s Engine Hall featured in programme one (the section on the Nene) and the producers were very specific about their requirements – no interest in XM594 this time round!
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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by DerekF »

Decent enough programmes with some great footage. I think the Vulcan at Woodford segment was singularly appropriate in the context. There was a lot more that could have been covered but I guess within the time constraints we're lucky to get what we got.

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Re: Cold War, Hot Jets documentary - BBC2

Post by NAM Updater »

Picking up on the ‘Cold War Hot Jets’ theme an Object of the Week news item has been re-run on the NAM website in here about the P.1216 development model, which is displayed at the museum!
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