What has happend to the BBMF DSH three ship display ?

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eddywinch82
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What has happend to the BBMF DSH three ship display ?

Post by eddywinch82 »

Can anyone tell me what has happened to the Three ship arrival and departure of the BBMF Dakota Spitfire and Hurricane at British Airshows?

From the BBMF Yearbook 2014, an article about displaying the Dakota: "The speed of the Dakota precludes us from displaying with the Spitfire and Hurricane, we would be at full speed whilst the fighters would be a bit too slow, not a good mix!". That's a rather strange statement, as I've seen pictures of them in formation at Airshows in previous airshow seasons particularly in 2005. Also I've seen footage of the BBMF Dakota in formation with the BBMF Fighters, and the Dakota is moving quite quickly with the fighters ! here is the footage from Dunsfold Airshow in 2008 their arrival is at the start :-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXFWBfERdDk

Also I've seen footage of the BBMF Dakota with Spitfire VB AB910 doing a duo display at Kemble Airshow in 2011,

Also the BBMF Dakota arrived in formation with Spitfire XIX PM631 at Duxfords D-Day Airshow in May, and the XIX Spit wasn't going particularly slowly ? Shame they hardly ever do now in fact I think the last time the three ship was together was Kemble Airshow in 2009 may be wrong though ! As the combination of the Pratt and Whitney radials and Merlins/Griffons in unison is Awesome.

eddywinch82
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Re: What has happend to the BBMF DSH three ship display ?

Post by eddywinch82 »

If that is indeed the case, why would the BBMF Fly the Dakota with the BBMF Fighters for several seasons at Airshows, then suddenly stop, surely it would have been clear early on that formation flying was not really viable i.e. bad for life span of the Dakotas engines or Airframe or for safe flying ? Also why fly the BBMF Dakota with a High performance XIX Spitfire instead of a slower Mark IIA VB or IX ? like at Duxford's D-Day Airshow this year surely they wouldn't risk it if formation flying wasn't viable for airframe/engine fatigue their historic Aircraft after all. The Dakota didn't dive from altitude they both joined up at the back and flew steadily in from behind the crowd ! Don't worry I wont ask the question again I don't want to start an huge thread it just surprises me that's all from what i've seen of the Norwegian Dakota being flown with gusto at Duxfords Flying Legends.

XX752
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Re: What has happend to the BBMF DSH three ship display ?

Post by XX752 »

MkVDave wrote:Youve already had this explained to you at least once viewtopic.php?f=23&t=57767&p=613655#p613655

The Dakota has to fly flat out and the fighters have to fly near to stall speeds to stay in formation.


Why so rude? Who do you think you are? Does it matter to you if it's been explained before. No need for the 'schoolteacher' authoritative approach.

rambo
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Re: What has happend to the BBMF DSH three ship display ?

Post by rambo »

just want to clarify this, but after a little googling, the rough stall speed of a MK9 spit (for example) is 90kts, whereas the rough cruising speed of a DC3 is 150kts


Im not saying the fighters would be able to do much, but surely flying formation isnt impossible at those speeds??? Think of all the camera ships out there that are as slow as the DC3, and yet they seem to manage?

eddywinch82
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Re: What has happend to the BBMF DSH three ship display ?

Post by eddywinch82 »

I suppose many airshow organisers if they can may opt to have the BBMF Dakota and Fighters
in separate slots, to make the flying program larger also I suppose it depends whether the Dakota and Fighters have had separate commitments i.e. flypasts around the country. I just think its odd that they did Fly the BBMF
Dakota as a three ship with the fighters quite frequently in the past, and seldom do now. Surely problems
with formation flying would have been clear from the start when they did practice displays at their base a RAF Coningsby, and they wouldn't have done it at all at airshows in the UK, if it wasn't safe for the fighters being near to stalling, or viable for fatigue reasons on the airframe or engines of the Dakota going at speed. I mean the link I provide of them arriving at Dunsfold in 2008, the fighters hardly look close to stalling !

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Thumper
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Re: What has happend to the BBMF DSH three ship display ?

Post by Thumper »

Not sure what will happen tomorrow but the BBMF Dak, Spit and Hurri are down for Yeovilton airshow. No idea if they'll do their thing separately or in formation, I guess we'll see when the videos and pictures start getting uploaded!

eddywinch82
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Re: What has happend to the BBMF DSH three ship display ?

Post by eddywinch82 »

The BBMF Dakota and Fighters are in separate display slots at Yeovilton, according to the BBMF's display schedule on their
official website at www.bbmf.co.uk

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Thumper
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Re: What has happend to the BBMF DSH three ship display ?

Post by Thumper »

Oh, that's a shame then.

King Cobra
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Re: What has happend to the BBMF DSH three ship display ?

Post by King Cobra »

MkVDave wrote:Youve already had this explained to you at least once viewtopic.php?f=23&t=57767&p=613655#p613655

The Dakota has to fly flat out and the fighters have to fly near to stall speeds to stay in formation.


Don't think so mate. DC-3 max speed is around 230 mph whereas the stall speed of a Spitfire - depending on mark and configuration - is around 65 to 75 mph. Both would be more than happy holding formation at around 200 mph. i.e. the Dak's cruise speed.

King Cobra
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Re: What has happend to the BBMF DSH three ship display ?

Post by King Cobra »

rambo wrote:just want to clarify this, but after a little googling, the rough stall speed of a MK9 spit (for example) is 90kts, whereas the rough cruising speed of a DC3 is 150kts


Im not saying the fighters would be able to do much, but surely flying formation isnt impossible at those speeds??? Think of all the camera ships out there that are as slow as the DC3, and yet they seem to manage?


Interesting. I Googled also and found different speeds but agree that a Dak + Spit formation is quite possible. It's been done umpteen times before.

Traveller
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Re: What has happend to the BBMF DSH three ship display ?

Post by Traveller »

XX752 wrote:
MkVDave wrote:Youve already had this explained to you at least once viewtopic.php?f=23&t=57767&p=613655#p613655

The Dakota has to fly flat out and the fighters have to fly near to stall speeds to stay in formation.


Why so rude? Who do you think you are? Does it matter to you if it's been explained before. No need for the 'schoolteacher' authoritative approach.


Well he was just pointing out 2 facts I suppose. The second of which is garbage (at least a 50kts range to enable formation flying). Even an F15 can fly in formation with a P51.

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Thumper
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Re: What has happend to the BBMF DSH three ship display ?

Post by Thumper »

Funnily enough I was just about to say I remember an F-16 flying in formation with a Spitfire at a Duxford show and a Hawk has done the same at Duxford with a Spit.

eddywinch82
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Re: What has happend to the BBMF DSH three ship display ?

Post by eddywinch82 »

Hope to see the formation one day I really do ! Clearly it is very possible for all three to be in formation, from
what people have said. I just suppose most Airshow organisers prefer the BBMF Fighters and Dakota
as separate elements, as probably most people are not really bothered about the Dakota being
in formation with the fighters other than die hard enthusiasts. Also you get two separate display items which makes the flying program larger, a bonus for crowd and organisers alike. The BBMF Lancaster in formation with the Fighters is what most people at UK Airshows probably want to see more so than the former. Also the Event commitments of the BBMF may now be such, that they are not generally now able to all come direct from RAF Coningsby. As the BBMF Dakota undertakes many flypasts at venues other than Airshows each year as do the BBMF Fighters.

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