top side passes- why so difficult?
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top side passes- why so difficult?
This is a hot topic with anybody who as every tried to photograph a flying display! Can anybody in the know tell me why display pilots do so few topsides? Is is something that is more difficult to fly? Apart from the need to roll the other way to turn away from the crowd I can not see any reasoning behind their rarity? Please can somebody enlighten me!
Re: top side passes- why so difficult?
To fly in a straight line with a wing severely dipped (aka topside) is extremely difficult and, depending on size, speed and engine configuration can be dangerous (can result in stalls and or rapid loss of altitude).
The safest way to perform a topside is a wide arching turn around the length of the crowd line, fine and very effective at small shows like Grandsen but results in an aircraft a mile or so away at crowd centre at large crowd line shows like RIAT.
Andy
The safest way to perform a topside is a wide arching turn around the length of the crowd line, fine and very effective at small shows like Grandsen but results in an aircraft a mile or so away at crowd centre at large crowd line shows like RIAT.
Andy
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Re: top side passes- why so difficult?
You must remember that air displays are not only there for the snappers. Most people who pay to get in don't really care what the aeroplane does as long as they see it fly. Pilots fly their routine....
To answer your original question, it's not difficult but dependant on the crowd line layout. Old Warden, Sywell and. Gransden lend themselves to it, RIAT and other huge zzzzzzzzzz shows don't.
To answer your original question, it's not difficult but dependant on the crowd line layout. Old Warden, Sywell and. Gransden lend themselves to it, RIAT and other huge zzzzzzzzzz shows don't.
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Re: top side passes- why so difficult?
Could be wrong, but isn't it the challenge of getting a topside that, in part, makes the photo more rewarding? A combination of luck and skill coming away with a more unusual photo draws praise because it's something different to look at and harder to get. It's similar to shooting props with a slow shutter speed - it's use itself isn't the challenge, but coming away with decent prop discs and a sharp airframe is what draws the praise - or at least that's what it seems like to me, anyway.
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- Mattster256
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Re: top side passes- why so difficult?
Aside from the aforementioned issues, the other reasons are simply that a display routine is a display of just what the aircraft is capable of. Remember, you've got maybe 10 minutes maximum, if that in some cases, which means you've got to put together a display which does everything, if you can. Two topside passes in a fully aerobatic routine is more than good enough for me because I love seeing warbirds or any aircraft for that matter do vertical aeros because it proves that they're far more than just faded relics of what they used to be.
As for things like the BBMF upon which so much negativity has been heaped, well I think that's incredibly wrong and unfair. The BBMF aren't about providing a roaring display that leaves you speechless, they're about providing a living memorial to great sacrifice and struggle and the memories of those who gave their lives for us, and that's what leaves you speechless. Just like it did at Little Gransden on Sunday or Dunsfold.
As for things like the BBMF upon which so much negativity has been heaped, well I think that's incredibly wrong and unfair. The BBMF aren't about providing a roaring display that leaves you speechless, they're about providing a living memorial to great sacrifice and struggle and the memories of those who gave their lives for us, and that's what leaves you speechless. Just like it did at Little Gransden on Sunday or Dunsfold.
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Re: top side passes- why so difficult?
Oceana was a good show for top sides and sneak passes. The Year I went all the fast jets pilots knew exactly what the togs wanted.
Sure the display isn't for the photographers but arnt the top side passes and the touch and goes the best bit
Sure the display isn't for the photographers but arnt the top side passes and the touch and goes the best bit
Always remember "If you cannot turn tight...you cannot fight!"
Re: top side passes- why so difficult?
At all airshows the pilot must fly away from the crowd , resulting in bottom view all the time , but as mentioned you do usually get a couple of topshots in a routine.
Other than that , you do see people with the big 500 lenses + following them at thier furthest point.
Other than that , you do see people with the big 500 lenses + following them at thier furthest point.
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Re: top side passes- why so difficult?
In defense for the BBMF, I've found that they are actually trying to give more views of the topside (Well, no knife-edge of course) then they did in the mid '90s. Just a matter of doing it in front of the crowd instead of while being away.Mattster256 wrote:As for things like the BBMF upon which so much negativity has been heaped, well I think that's incredibly wrong and unfair. The BBMF aren't about providing a roaring display that leaves you speechless, they're about providing a living memorial to great sacrifice and struggle and the memories of those who gave their lives for us
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Re: top side passes- why so difficult?
Tommy wrote:....A combination of luck and skill coming away with a more unusual photo draws praise because it's something different....
Which would mean that the last thing you are looking for is the typical front three-quarter "topside" because that is what most of the others along the crowd line are trying to get (me included, to some extent I just like to try other angles as well, the "straight up the afterburner shot" being a particular favourite of mine, along with "head on shots")...
I agree with the earlier poster who said that he liked to see the pilot show some of the capabilities of the aircraft, and for many combat aircraft, of almost any era, that means aerobatics to demonstrate the manoeuverability and handling of the machine, which purpose is not well served by a "topside pass".
nothing is confirmed at a show until its u/c hits the tarmac or it is running in for its display.....
Re: top side passes- why so difficult?
As was said earlier, routines are designed with safety and variety in mind, not everybody, in fact only the minority seek photogenic topside passes.
A top side pass does require a bend from behind the crowd, which also means that they are out of eyesight while repositioning.
Very few crowd lines have a bend in it and therefore most displays are practiced with a traditional straight line.
A prime example was the Little G show. Just because the crowd tappered off at an angle does not mean there was a bend in the display line.
All those at the briefing were aware of this. Just a shame the "expert" reporters didn't do some homework before slating the pilots for their lack of use with regards "the bend".
A top side pass does require a bend from behind the crowd, which also means that they are out of eyesight while repositioning.
Very few crowd lines have a bend in it and therefore most displays are practiced with a traditional straight line.
A prime example was the Little G show. Just because the crowd tappered off at an angle does not mean there was a bend in the display line.
All those at the briefing were aware of this. Just a shame the "expert" reporters didn't do some homework before slating the pilots for their lack of use with regards "the bend".
Re: top side passes- why so difficult?
yakman wrote:As was said earlier, routines are designed with safety and variety in mind, not everybody, in fact only the minority seek photogenic topside passes.
A top side pass does require a bend from behind the crowd, which also means that they are out of eyesight while repositioning.
Very few crowd lines have a bend in it and therefore most displays are practiced with a traditional straight line.
A prime example was the Little G show. Just because the crowd tappered off at an angle does not mean there was a bend in the display line.
All those at the briefing were aware of this. Just a shame the "expert" reporters didn't do some homework before slating the pilots for their lack of use with regards "the bend".
As I'm presumably one of those "expert reporters", Gerald, I'd remind you we are the paying punters and therefore your/Team Raven's customers.
You're the first display pilot I've come across who quite openly treats those customers with contempt. Looking at your posting history you've described enthusiasts/board members as "ignorant", "idiots" and "keyboard warriors" in the past as well as dismissively labelling us all as "spotters": http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=59413&p=587705#p587705.
Like it or not, you're in the entertainment business. Take the criticism on-board. It is offered not to personally crucify you, but to enhance the airshow experience for all. Other pilots seemed to use the bend at Little Gransden perfectly well. As they have done in many previous years there.
Re: top side passes- why so difficult?
No problem with any criticisms at all, just giving the facts about why so few top side passes, especially when reports of a crowd line bend are not there as reported. Slating some of the top warbirds acts for not using what is not there is unprofessional. The display was different this year. Something you might have noted.
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Not a problem
You made a mistake, suck it up, admit it and move on.
Not a problem
Re: top side passes- why so difficult?
Gerald,
I certainly don't wish to carry on a public debate with you over your bad review. I would point out that, among others, Rob Davies in the Mustang, the Fennec flown by Ray Corsten, Lauren Richardson's Pitts, the pair of Spartans and the Bird Dog, Auster and Navion all managed to use the dog-leg just fine. Presumably they weren't in the same briefing?
Happy to discuss further via PM.
I certainly don't wish to carry on a public debate with you over your bad review. I would point out that, among others, Rob Davies in the Mustang, the Fennec flown by Ray Corsten, Lauren Richardson's Pitts, the pair of Spartans and the Bird Dog, Auster and Navion all managed to use the dog-leg just fine. Presumably they weren't in the same briefing?
Happy to discuss further via PM.
Re: top side passes- why so difficult?
DanO1978 wrote:Happy to discuss further via PM.
And I'd respectfully request that any further debate on this matter is done via this medium not on the main board.
Thanks
Re: top side passes- why so difficult?
Welcome back Dan O