How we react to fatal accidents

Discuss all things 'aviation' that do not fit into a more appropriate forum
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Spiny Norman
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Re: How we react to fatal accidents

Post by Spiny Norman »

It's entirely understandable that those who have a personal connection with the crews involved do not want to hear anything beyond condolences soon after a tragic incident.

Speculation as to the reasons behind an incident is entirely understandable and there's plenty knowledgeable people on here to make that worthwhile. Uninformed speculation is part of the course as with all things in life - we don't always know when to keep quiet when maybe we should.

It's been mentioned before but perhaps a sensible option might be to have a condolences thread and a speculation thread so sensitivities are dealt with.

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Mad Dan
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Re: How we react to fatal accidents

Post by Mad Dan »

A very difficult one this... My attitude has always been to keep quiet, but I appreciate that others don't feel the same way, which of course is their privilege.

Having said that, it seems to me that there is far too much ill informed speculation these days - much of it originating with "experts" dredged up by media to comment. I am always mindful of the Falklands War, when one expert speculating on possible courses of action correctly identified a spot at which a landing subsequently took place. I gather that those responsible for planning were horrified when this happened. Fortunately, there were no dire consequences.

The one occasion that I can recall posting something relating to an accident occurred at the weekend and was based on information that apparently originated with an emergency service and was picked up and reported by ITV.

The information turned out to be incorrect and I now regret having posted anything at all.

Henceforth, I will remain shtummm...
I am not a loony... I used to be, but I think I am better now...

sopwithflyer
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Re: How we react to fatal accidents

Post by sopwithflyer »

I fully understand that our instinct and curiosity will always cause us to speculate. What I don't understand is the need to share it on a forum

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Ray Purchase
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Re: How we react to fatal accidents

Post by Ray Purchase »

sopwithflyer wrote:I fully understand that our instinct and curiosity will always cause us to speculate. What I don't understand is the need to share it on a forum


Some on here would give the answer 'it's an aviation forum so I'm entitled to speculate and give everyone my 'expert' opinion'.
The real answer is, of course, is probably similar to that bloke down the pub who is an expert on everything about everything and wants everyone to know that.
That was the best full English breakfast I've had since Gary Wilmot's wedding.

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pbeardmore
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Re: How we react to fatal accidents

Post by pbeardmore »

Having an opinion on anything is fine but realizing that there are and will be people who have both the expertise and, in time, access to what facts are available is a next step. How is it that any of us think we can do a better or quicker job than the experts whose job it is to carry out a full investigation. When you see the depth that these reports go into (plus they are eventually in the public domain) , what does watching a poor quality youtube video and giving an amateur opinion (guess) within 24 hours of the accident achieve? its a pointless exercise IMHO
But its not just airshows, its a wider issue with modern society, we are in a rush to get an answer. The case of Christopher Jefferies comes to mind when the media (supported by those buying the papers) jumped to a conclusion (wrong) too early without access to the facts.
PS it reminded me of the book on Freakonomics that stated that the three hardest words to say was not "I love you" but "I dont know".

LEVITT: So we wrote Freakonomics, and because it was deemed a business book and we sold a lot of copies, that made us business experts. And since we wrote that book I’ve been asked a ton to go talk to companies and give them advice. And what’s amazing to me is I could count on one hand the number of occasions in which someone in a company, in front of their boss, on a question that they might possibly have ever been expected to know the answer, has said “I don’t know.” Within the business world, there’s a general view that your job is to be an expert. And no matter how much you have to fake or how much you are making it up that you just should give an answer and hope for the best afterwards. And I have seen it teaching the business school students, that they are incredibly good — the MBAs — at faking like they know the answer when they have no idea.
“The best computer is a man, and it’s the only one that can be mass-produced by unskilled labour.”

Stagger2
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Re: How we react to fatal accidents

Post by Stagger2 »

Ray Purchase wrote:
sopwithflyer wrote:I fully understand that our instinct and curiosity will always cause us to speculate. What I don't understand is the need to share it on a forum


Some on here would give the answer 'it's an aviation forum so I'm entitled to speculate and give everyone my 'expert' opinion'.
The real answer is, of course, is probably similar to that bloke down the pub who is an expert on everything about everything and wants everyone to know that.


(Bold highlights added above by me) In this case the OP. raised the Topic/Question "Re: How we react to fatal accidents" & that includes public out-pouring of grief through to the the need to know why accidents happen.
FWIW. I have personally reviewed several incidents over the years in a 'private' quest to satisfy my need to 'understand' why? This often results in me being correct in my analysis waaaaay ahead of the AAIB. But nobody will ever know that because I don't post my insignificant opinions on here in true 'willy-waving' fashion, merely to gain plaudits from the 'Forum Massif' at the risk of further hurting those more directly affected. (Pls see also the 2nd post/page1)
I, like all other members, have the right to voice my speculative overview of the cause/s of any incident in the Public domain & add such opinion to this Forum. I choose NOT to exercise that right out of respect for others at a difficult time. ( Beats the s**t out of 'blue skies' & 'RIP' every time !)

Alanko
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Re: How we react to fatal accidents

Post by Alanko »

Speculation is good fun. There is a wider issue with reporting air accidents on forums. Firstly, the family of those involved may find out through a fairly casual channel, which is the risk of mis-reporting aircraft serials immediately after a crash. Secondly, some people seem more upset at the loss of the aircraft than the loss of the pilot, though I've never noticed this too much.

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Ray Purchase
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Re: How we react to fatal accidents

Post by Ray Purchase »

Stagger2 wrote:
Ray Purchase wrote:
sopwithflyer wrote:I fully understand that our instinct and curiosity will always cause us to speculate. What I don't understand is the need to share it on a forum


Some on here would give the answer 'it's an aviation forum so I'm entitled to speculate and give everyone my 'expert' opinion'.
The real answer is, of course, is probably similar to that bloke down the pub who is an expert on everything about everything and wants everyone to know that.


(Bold highlights added above by me) In this case the OP. raised the Topic/Question "Re: How we react to fatal accidents" & that includes public out-pouring of grief through to the the need to know why accidents happen.
FWIW. I have personally reviewed several incidents over the years in a 'private' quest to satisfy my need to 'understand' why? This often results in me being correct in my analysis waaaaay ahead of the AAIB. But nobody will ever know that because I don't post my insignificant opinions on here in true 'willy-waving' fashion, merely to gain plaudits from the 'Forum Massif' at the risk of further hurting those more directly affected. (Pls see also the 2nd post/page1)
I, like all other members, have the right to voice my speculative overview of the cause/s of any incident in the Public domain & add such opinion to this Forum. I choose NOT to exercise that right out of respect for others at a difficult time. ( Beats the s**t out of 'blue skies' & 'RIP' every time !)


No idea what you're going on about, but I think I agree (or possibly not).
With your amazing analytical skills, why don't you get a job as an accident investigator, and put those skills to good use?
That was the best full English breakfast I've had since Gary Wilmot's wedding.

UKTopgun
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Re: How we react to fatal accidents

Post by UKTopgun »

Human beings will always react in different ways to any said event. Some wish to ask why, some wish to express sorrow, some just don't say anything at all. All are fine by me, the World would be a very dull place if everyone did the same all the time.

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boff180
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Re: How we react to fatal accidents

Post by boff180 »

The UKAR position on this has been the same for a long time.

If you want to post a message of condolence, "blue skies" or how you feel the please feel free. We understand that some want to make some form of tribute and others don't.

However.

If you want to speculate, this is not the place and is actively discouraged.

Many have a theory and like to discuss it which we understand however, general media have and regularly do trawl aviation forums to find the most sensational theory they can find. They then proceed to publish that theory as fact. We don't want any of our members or the site as a whole to be associated with that behaviour.

Some claim we are being nanny state.etc however all we are doing is protecting the membership, the site and the families of those effected (in our own insignificant small way) from the sensationalist rubbish published by the main stream press.

Thought that might give some insight for some members :-)

Andy

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Ray Purchase
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Re: How we react to fatal accidents

Post by Ray Purchase »

I would argue the 'press' would choose this site to get their meaty stories.
If I were a journo., I'd be going to a site with people who actually have knowledge of such subjects.
That was the best full English breakfast I've had since Gary Wilmot's wedding.

rambo
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Re: How we react to fatal accidents

Post by rambo »

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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boff180
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Re: How we react to fatal accidents

Post by boff180 »

Ray Purchase wrote:I would argue the 'press' would choose this site to get their meaty stories.
If I were a journo., I'd be going to a site with people who actually have knowledge of such subjects.


Funny (not). In all seriousness we would rather not take the risk.

Long story short, but if you want to speculate, do it somewhere else.

Andy