S.D.S.R 2015

Discuss all things 'aviation' that do not fit into a more appropriate forum
Traveller
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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

Post by Traveller »

Just wait 36 hours people and all will be revealed. Including why the right decision has been made over some ships. I mean, what exactly does the surface fleet apart from carriers honestly do these days?

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Fumbles
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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

Post by Fumbles »

FGR2 wrote:According to Sky News reports are the UK is buying 138 F-35s.

http://news.sky.com/story/1591964/pm-wa ... -two-weeks



Yeap some of which are probably discounted because of the cancelled RCAF F-35s which were/are on our newly elected Government's pre-election promise. Soon to be announced when the house of Commons goes back early December before Christmas break.

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Brevet Cable
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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

Post by Brevet Cable »

Sky News ( via the Daily Mail ) have presumably been trawling through various military & aviation websites as source material again , then.
Sky are slipping , though....no mention of the really important Military news story this weekend -- the 'coffegate' debacle. :lmao:
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boff180
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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

Post by boff180 »

138 was our original commitment to the F-35 program and is still the figure listed on the programs quarterly "fast facts" press release

At the moment we have ordered 10.

The SDSR is expected to confirm an order for enough to man OCU and two front line squadrons specifically for the carriers, around 40 aircraft with an option for the figure to be reviewed upwards at the 2020 review. Pundits are already suggesting the 2020 review will see an order of A models to replace the Tonka.

Also pretty likely two further typhoon squadrons will stand up and all Tranche 1 Typhoons will be transferred to them. These two squadrons role will specifically be UK air defence with the existing squadrons getting our full Tranche 3 order as replacements.

JetA1
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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

Post by JetA1 »

Buying 138 B models doesn't make much sense other than for logistics and spares. The A model would suit the RAF needs more, and the B is needed for the carriers.

My concern is having 2 new carriers, you need defence and support ships for it. Scrapping more ships when we've only 18 already seems crazy.

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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

Post by PeterR »

JetA1 wrote:Buying 138 B models doesn't make much sense other than for logistics and spares.


Cost saving on spares would be immense, let alone streamlined training for RAF & RN aircrew and groundcrew on the type. A mixed fleet of A/B makes no sense.

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Brevet Cable
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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

Post by Brevet Cable »

Not to mention that - as with the Harriers on Operation Corporate - they then have the option of utilising RAF fixed-wing aircraft on the RN Carriers.
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FarnboroJohn
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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

Post by FarnboroJohn »

PeterR wrote:
JetA1 wrote:Buying 138 B models doesn't make much sense other than for logistics and spares.


Cost saving on spares would be immense, let alone streamlined training for RAF & RN aircrew and groundcrew on the type. A mixed fleet of A/B makes no sense.


Then there's ongoing development costs such as fatigue mods, PDS for obsolescent items, integration of new weapons and systems - it goes on and on. If you can buy all one model you do so.

John

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boff180
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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

Post by boff180 »

PeterR wrote:Cost saving on spares would be immense, let alone streamlined training for RAF & RN aircrew and groundcrew on the type. A mixed fleet of A/B makes no sense.


The A model is far more capable, in addition to being longer ranged, more maneuverable and having an internal gun (making a gun fit less draggy); it can carry a much heavier weapons load in both Stealth and Conventional configurations.

Internally, the weapons bay is longer and the two main stations are rated for 2,500lb's where on the B they are rated for 1,500lb's. The B cannot carry 2,000lb class weapons internally. In addition a number of weapons don't physcially fit (JSOW) in the F-35B weapons bay for example it can only carry 4 SDB-II compared to the 8 of the A/C due to the bay length limiting launcher rack size.

In addition on the external pylons, both have 6 externals.... 4 for ordnance and 2 for missiles.... the outer 2 ordnance pylons on the B are again only rated for 1,500lb where on the A they are rated for 2,500lb.

Hypothetically in a long range stand-off strike mission fit the A can carry twice as many Storm Shadows or can carry two and two external tanks (which are under development) to increase range. Those are two things the B just cannot do, and it already has shorter legs too!

The B is (arguably) the correct version for the Carrier fleet however as a replacement for the Tornado, the A model wins hands down. Parts commonality at around 30% is also a plus, I believe the costs vs capability gap of operating a single version fleet isn't acceptable. The B just cannot do what we would want a Tornado replacement to do. It's for similar reasons the USMC are operating a mixed B/C fleet, the B just isn't that capable.

Andy

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Brevet Cable
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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

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harkins
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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

Post by harkins »

I agree with Andy above, the sensible move from a military perspective is a mixed fleet. Surely the best aircraft for the mission is what is sensible? I doubt anyone would argue for an all F-35B fleet if another type altogether was being considered (say the Super Hornet as an example) as a replacement for the Tornado. It's a bit frustrating to me that we've chosen the runt of the litter. Or am I totally wrong and it's the Typhoon that is intended to replace the Tornado in the strike role anyway?

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Pringles
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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

Post by Pringles »

If life gives you melons then you're probably dyslexic

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boff180
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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

Post by boff180 »

That would sound about right... so that's a combat fleet of 24 and a training/reserve fleet of 18 a total of 42 F-35B.

With a commitment to purchase 138 F-35's (it doesn't say B) in total over a number of years. That would tie in with a post 2020 purchase.

Andy

Concorde216
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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

Post by Concorde216 »

The Typhoon as far as I am aware was always meant to replace the Tornado fleet.

It would be crazy for the MOD to have two different variants of F-35. Surely having one type offers flexibility in order to operate from the carriers. We have already seen enough money wasted with the farce created when the carriers were re-designed to have catapult capability and then re-re-designed back to what it was to be originally, causing unnecessary delays and waste of precious taxpayers money which has already been wasted with the cancellation of the Nimrod MRA4 and now having to look at £2.5Billion MPA replacement...How on earth does the Treasury and MOD get away with such gross miss-management of public money?

Then again the same can be said for other Government departments such as the NHS which has a budget more than three times that of the MOD's and yet still needing more....I'm sure there is wastage in each department but it is either no being identified or being ignored to as not to upset some civil servant's cushy job and perks... :mad:

Rant over...for now!

Traveller
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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

Post by Traveller »

Concorde216 wrote:The Typhoon as far as I am aware was always meant to replace the Tornado fleet.

It would be crazy for the MOD to have two different variants of F-35. Surely having one type offers flexibility in order to operate from the carriers. We have already seen enough money wasted with the farce created when the carriers were re-designed to have catapult capability and then re-re-designed back to what it was to be originally, causing unnecessary delays and waste of precious taxpayers money which has already been wasted with the cancellation of the Nimrod MRA4 and now having to look at £2.5Billion MPA replacement...How on earth does the Treasury and MOD get away with such gross miss-management of public money?

Then again the same can be said for other Government departments such as the NHS which has a budget more than three times that of the MOD's and yet still needing more....I'm sure there is wastage in each department but it is either no being identified or being ignored to as not to upset some civil servant's cushy job and perks... :mad:

Rant over...for now!


Typhoon was to replace Tornado F3s and Jaguars. FOAS was to replace Tornado, that's the F35 now. Cancelling Nimrod was a saving for goodness sake. The money was wasted but thank god that joke of a project isn't current today. Civil servants cushy job and perks - how out of touch with reality you are.

FarnboroJohn
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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

Post by FarnboroJohn »

Concorde216 wrote:The Typhoon as far as I am aware was always meant to replace the Tornado fleet.

It would be crazy for the MOD to have two different variants of F-35. Surely having one type offers flexibility in order to operate from the carriers. We have already seen enough money wasted with the farce created when the carriers were re-designed to have catapult capability and then re-re-designed back to what it was to be originally, causing unnecessary delays and waste of precious taxpayers money which has already been wasted with the cancellation of the Nimrod MRA4 and now having to look at £2.5Billion MPA replacement...How on earth does the Treasury and MOD get away with such gross miss-management of public money?

Then again the same can be said for other Government departments such as the NHS which has a budget more than three times that of the MOD's and yet still needing more....I'm sure there is wastage in each department but it is either no being identified or being ignored to as not to upset some civil servant's cushy job and perks... :mad:

Rant over...for now!


What a pity MOD and DoH civil servants have to serve the government of the day, which can change every five years while most modern procurement programmes run for ten or more years prior to IOC. What a shame that recent governments have changed their minds actually within their terms.

If you would like to overturn the established order in the UK and have professional civil servants running the place without interference from shallow, indecisive, pandying to media and voters politicians, so proper long-term programmes can be set up on a rational basis and managed for the good of the country instead of to attract the gullible, all vote now. :lol:

John

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Red Dragon
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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

Post by Red Dragon »

Well here it is, a first draft at least. Just the basics, no meat on the bones regarding the aircraft no mention of the bases for the aircraft.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-pledges-178-billion-investment-in-defence-kit

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tommc
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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

Post by tommc »

Red Dragon wrote:Well here it is, a first draft at least. Just the basics, no meat on the bones regarding the aircraft no mention of the bases for the aircraft.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-pledges-178-billion-investment-in-defence-kit


Well, that document confirms the 9 x P-8, plus the 2 additional Typhoon squadrons.
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TomMc

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boff180
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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

Post by boff180 »

Also confirms the Typhoon fleet to be upgraded with AESA.

MJ83
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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

Post by MJ83 »

Just confirmed live on BBC News that we will buy an off the shelf American maritime patrol aircraft.

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iainpeden
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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

Post by iainpeden »

Can we start "bidding" on the squadrons which will be revived? I'd start with 43 and 111 for the Typhoons.
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

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Brevet Cable
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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

Post by Brevet Cable »

Red Dragon wrote:Well here it is, a first draft at least. Just the basics, no meat on the bones regarding the aircraft no mention of the bases for the aircraft.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-pledges-178-billion-investment-in-defence-kit

Three words -- smoke...mirrors...jam
And that's before they anounce the stuffing of the RN.
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Sussexlad
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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

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Concorde216 wrote:The Typhoon as far as I am aware was always meant to replace the Tornado fleet.

It would be crazy for the MOD to have two different variants of F-35. Surely having one type offers flexibility in order to operate from the carriers. We have already seen enough money wasted with the farce created when the carriers were re-designed to have catapult capability and then re-re-designed back to what it was to be originally, causing unnecessary delays and waste of precious taxpayers money which has already been wasted with the cancellation of the Nimrod MRA4 and now having to look at £2.5Billion MPA replacement...How on earth does the Treasury and MOD get away with such gross miss-management of public money?

Then again the same can be said for other Government departments such as the NHS which has a budget more than three times that of the MOD's and yet still needing more....I'm sure there is wastage in each department but it is either no being identified or being ignored to as not to upset some civil servant's cushy job and perks... :mad:

Rant over...for now!


In my experience, management in the private sector is pretty bad but the public sector is even worse and partly due to 'union protection' of people not fit to do the job assigned to them properly. Like all public management these days whether it be the MOD, NHS or councils, everything is 'short term' planning, just look at the state look of our roads versus most other civilised countries with our 'bodge it and fix' approach to maintaining them.

My dear Mum worked in the NHS all her professional life and the management of it drove her crazy. She got so fed up by 'management' people continually telling professional medical people how to do their jobs via the latest new-fangled 'theory' ideas and mostly just to 'save' money. One time when she was a ward sister, 3 guys arrived unannounced to fit new curtains around the ward. She pointed out there was nothing wrong with the existing ones that had only been fitted 9 months before! Instead, she asked if the hall and stairs carpets that were threadbare could be replaced instead. Answer, "Sorry Love, that comes out of a different budget"!

Successive governments have criminally neglected the needs of our armed forces whilst they throw billions at many 'questionable' foreign aid projects and an over-generous benefits system that helps attract all the questionable people from far and wide in trying to get to the UK. Enough is enough!

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Sussexlad
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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

Post by Sussexlad »

iainpeden wrote:Can we start "bidding" on the squadrons which will be revived? I'd start with 43 and 111 for the Typhoons.


74 for me! :rock:

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Re: S.D.S.R 2015

Post by HeyfordDave111 »

Sky news reporting P-8's for Lossiemouth.

And another 8 years for the navy davey!
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