New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

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boff180
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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by boff180 »

What that means is a 1000m horizontal separation!

Ie draw a 1000 metre radius bubble around the show ground! Any person vehicle or structure within that space must be given a 150 metre horizontal separation....

That's in addition to not flying below 500ft



Ladies and gentleman the death of the Great British Civilian Airshow

Gregg
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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by Gregg »

I don't know why the CAA don't just play straight and just ban air displays.

AFC
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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by AFC »

To give a comparison, how high were the aircraft flying at old warden yesterday?

Nige321
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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by Nige321 »

permitted aircraft taking part in a flying display, air race or contest to fly below 150 metres (500 feet) above the ground or water or closer than 150 metres (500 feet) to any person, vessel, vehicle or structure if it is within a horizontal distance of 1,000 metres of the gathering of persons assembled to witness the event.


I read is as they can fly closer to a structure, if it is within 1Km of the gathering of people...

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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

Where is the common sense here?

Where is the trust being shown in properly-regulated, licenced and trusted pilots?

Where is the intelligence being applied by an aviation body that surely is staffed and run by people who not only know aviation, but have a desire to make airshows safe, yet still exciting to watch, and as easy as possible to organise and stage.

Everything the CAA does runs counter to that of a body looking to safeguard the future of the industry. From day one their agenda has been clear.

Any pilots spoken out yet?

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Pat Murphy
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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by Pat Murphy »

boff180 wrote:What that means is a 1000m horizontal separation!

Ie draw a 1000 metre radius bubble around the show ground! Any person vehicle or structure within that space must be given a 150 metre horizontal separation....

That's in addition to not flying below 500ft



Ladies and gentleman the death of the Great British Civilian Airshow


Quite simply, this is Barking, chuffin Mad.
CAA are not fit for purpose.

Up to August last year the legislation for airshows wasn't broke, it did not need fixing. The tweaks to risk assessment and pilot's DA's to a lesser extent, should have been the end of this. What we now have is a witch hunt, plain and simple. :mad:

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Thumper
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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by Thumper »

Thanks Boff I was really scratching my head on that one, the reason I asked is because when I was browsing a Faceache group earlier there's mention of this field at Cosford which apparently has been cleared, finalised, sorted, all okay'd that a group is hiring out at £10 per car so you can 'freeload' the show. It's tag line is that you are right underneath the flightpath for the displaying aircraft at Cosford Airshow. Using Google Earth, said field is 876 metres from the piano keys on Rwy24, how on earth is this OK and if it goes ahead will this be a reason for the CAA to stop the show?

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Pringles
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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by Pringles »

The organisers of flying displays, air races and contests scheduled to be held between 6 and
30 June 2016, and the pilots and operators of aircraft planned to participate in said events,
may seek from the CAA specific exemption from the minimum height requirements at
SERA.3105 ‘Minimum heights’ and SERA.5005 ‘Visual flight rules’.

It's to be hoped that they don't end up having to process such a large number of requests for exemptions from every display act in the country then! They'll want more money for that to happen :wall:

I'm now thinking of another word for the 'C' in 'CAA' :tongue2:
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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by stickshaker »

You've got special dispensations for some acts allowing them as close as 75m and then this that says all acts must not be below 500ft.

My guess is that it means flying parallel to the crowd line which is in itself a 1,000 metres long?

I take that to mean you can fly below 500ft as long as the display is further than 1km of the crowd , which is pretty pointless!


Fortunately, none of the above. And most definitely not:

What that means is a 1000m horizontal separation!
Ie draw a 1000 metre radius bubble around the show ground! Any person vehicle or structure within that space must be given a 150 metre horizontal separation....
That's in addition to not flying below 500ft


This Safety Notice is in response to a recommendation in one of the AAIB reports.

Previously, and up to 6th June, under national exemptions to the European Rules of the Air, there has been a standing exemption from the normal 500ft minimum height rule to cover air display flying. This exempted display aircraft from the 500ft rule, but only within 1000m of the crowd. The AAIB recommendation, and the effect of this Safety Notice, is to remove the blanket exemption from the 500ft rule and to have any height exemptions specified in the Display Permission itself.

However, as has been pointed out, it is poorly written.

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boff180
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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by boff180 »

Thumper wrote:Thanks Boff I was really scratching my head on that one, the reason I asked is because when I was browsing a Faceache group earlier there's mention of this field at Cosford which apparently has been cleared, finalised, sorted, all okay'd that a group is hiring out at £10 per car so you can 'freeload' the show. It's tag line is that you are right underneath the flightpath for the displaying aircraft at Cosford Airshow. Using Google Earth, said field is 876 metres from the piano keys on Rwy24, how on earth is this OK and if it goes ahead will this be a reason for the CAA to stop the show?


Cosford is MAA not CAA, any Airshow at a military owned establishment is not governed by the CAA or their Regs

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Thumper
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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by Thumper »

Ah right, thanks again, it really is giving me quite a headache, you're not sure what applies where and things keep changing every 5 minutes!

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LN Strike Eagle
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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by LN Strike Eagle »

tommercer wrote:Also interesting to note that this only applies until 18th August 2016, presumably pending a complete review/overhaul of CAP403 yet again?

Covered in the document:

3 Replacement of ORS4 No 1124
3.1 A revised version of ORS4 No. 1124 will be published in mid-June 2016 to take effect on 18 August 2016 as part of the UK’s implementation of SERA Part C Phase 1. Industry will be notified of its replacement accordingly


ORS4 No 1124 is 'Standardised European Rules of the Air – Exceptions to the Minimum Height Requirements'

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplic ... il&id=6862
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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by G-CVIX »

Surely changing the regs every five seconds does nothing but add to a pilot's work load, thus having a detrimental effect on safety!

Something needs to be done about the CAA. This is insanity.

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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by APG »

Stickshaker has decoded the SN perfectly.

Distances will not change but minimum display height will.

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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

G-CVIX wrote:Surely changing the regs every five seconds does nothing but add to a pilot's work load, thus having a detrimental effect on safety!

Something needs to be done about the CAA. This is insanity.


:clap:

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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by UKAirshowTour »

surely it makes all the pilots PDA's invlaid if the rules have now changed again?

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boff180
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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by boff180 »

APG wrote:Stickshaker has decoded the SN perfectly.

Distances will not change but minimum display height will.

???? no-one did say distances would change just that there is a new requirement to basically avoid anything within 1000m of the crowd by 150m.

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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by stickshaker »

APG wrote:Stickshaker has decoded the SN perfectly.

Distances will not change but minimum display height will.


Thank you - but your assertion is also incorrect I'm afraid. The heights will not change (well, they might at some stage for other reasons, but nothing to do with this SN).

All this is about is where in the rules the heights are detailed. Instead of being in a standing approval, they will be in the display permission. There is nothing to suggest that the heights will be changed. We have yet to see the exact wording of a permission issued under the new procedures.

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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by stickshaker »

boff180 wrote:???? no-one did say distances would change just that there is a new requirement to basically avoid anything within 1000m of the crowd by 150m.


There is no new requirement. The 1000m related to the distance within which an aircraft could low fly.

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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by Exiler »

This has got to stop. Changing the rules every 30 seconds to suit them so they are being seen to do the right thing is ridiculous. Post July 1st we have some of the biggest airshows in the Calendar.
The cynic in me thinks that they have done this to spite venues. if you look at show attendances, most have been pretty good, to me, it seems this is another way of putting off the general public.
Above all though, pilots safety is going to be put to the test. Constant changes add to stress and adaption. implementing changes quickly often has a negative effect.
I know I continue to ask this but is there no way to challenge the CAA? Clearly they are no longer fit for purpose but how do we, the general public bring them to account?

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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by rob68 »

Who do the CAA answer to, yesterday was a very good airshow at OW but at least 5 calls went out to pilots to be told they were infring on the crowd, the sea vixen twice, sea hurricane once and wildcat twice. What are the repercussions of these infringements if at all any?

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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by slsmotors »

First post here after lurking for nearly two decades so be gentle!

Having run the SN via a chum in the legal profession connected to aviation, this doesn't necessarily mean a change that will result in much more new visible change beyond that already well documented (and already witnessed) at events this year.

As stickshaker has said, this SN removes the exceptions to minimum heights from the permissions already pre-granted within the scope of the pan-Euro ORS4 no 1124. In other words automatic permission for low flying at air shows granted by the ORS4 document is revoked.

What I understand it will mean (and Im sure there are organisers reading and posting here that can comment) is that organisers have to be absolutely sure they have applied correctly for permission for exemption to the low flying rules (as noted in CAP1373b earlier this year) to ensure that flying at their show can occur within the airspace and rules already applicable this season.

Naturally in the risk averse world this year there is a risk that even after the application, a particular venue may fail to be granted the low flying exemption and the event or flying routines may have to be adapted. But let us be optimistic - this may make no further difference to that we've already seen...

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iaint
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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by iaint »

This is all in response to the AAIB recommendation found within this

Specifically Section 3 - Minimum heights and ...
Consequently the regulations currently in force do not reflect the view that aircraft must comply with the ‘normal rules of the air’ when not on the display line. Therefore the following Safety Recommendation is made:

Safety Recommendation 2016-036
It is recommended that the Civil Aviation Authority remove the general
exemptions to flight at minimum heights issued for Flying Displays, Air Races
and Contests outlined in Official Record Series 4-1124 and specify the
boundaries of a flying display within which any Permission applies.


Does this (in a less than neat and tidy manner) say that all flying unless on the display line has to be done within the 'normal rules of the air'? Whereas this was previously inferred but not declared by the regulations?
There is however, no mention or reference to the "specify the boundaries of a flying display within which any permission applies" in this Safety Notice, so unless it's not been defined because each venue will have different requirements and restrictions, are the CAA being selective and restricting all flying as part of a routine to comply with the SERA and be 500ft+?

:dizzy:
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Gregg
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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by Gregg »

I've read that the notice was a miss issued one and will be retracted tomorrow. Dunno how true that is I've no idea.

cg_341
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Re: New CAA CAP 403 Display Regs Published

Post by cg_341 »

Why on earth wait to retract a safety notice?!

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