A poll - will CAA changes affect your habits?

Discuss all things 'aviation' that do not fit into a more appropriate forum

based on CAA changes, will you visit:

The same number of shows as usual
85
21%
The same number of shows as usual
85
21%
Fewer shows
90
22%
Fewer shows
90
22%
More shows
6
1%
More shows
6
1%
Undecided
21
5%
Undecided
21
5%
 
Total votes: 404

Thoughtful_Flyer
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Re: A poll - will CAA changes effect your habits?

Post by Thoughtful_Flyer »

LN Strike Eagle wrote:Fewer. I'm not paying the same (or in some cases more) for less.

If the shows are as unfulfilling as they were yesterday, then I see no reason to keep going back when I've been there and seen and done it better in the past.



I agree.

I think if you have had a particular interest for some time it is natural to get more demanding, not less. As you say, been there, done that and for those that like them worn the tee shirt!

If something happens, regardless of who is a fault, that devalues the experience then many will tend to reduce their involvement. Some, if time and finances allow, may be willing to travel overseas in search of a better experience. However, realistically, that will be a tiny minority.

Those who's main reason for going is to take photographs may, if they are committed enough, buy better equipment in order to still get they type of shots that were easier before. But that comes at significant cost and still needs decent weather conditions.

It is admirable to say that it their duty to still support the scene and I am sure some genuinely mean it. However people often say the same about the local shop then order from Amazon!

BigBlackCat
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Re: A poll - will CAA changes affect your habits?

Post by BigBlackCat »

I was aghast at what we saw at Shuttleworth on Sunday (Rules is rules though chaps eh..... :-X )

I suspect that Duxford will be the same or worse but will be saved by Joe Public wanting to see the Reds and the P de F. I am told that ticket numbers sold are about a half of what they would expect so far.

This is the future of airshows I think. Joe Public will always come and see the Big Attractions like the Reds, BBMF etc, but the real enthusiasts who are looking for the odd aviation gem, we will be stuffed!

The problem for us that we are 'The Few' in this context. And as someone once famously said 'The need of the many outweighs the need of the few'.... (or something similar).

Its a pity the Vulcan isn't still around :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

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blackcat
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Re: A poll - will CAA changes affect your habits?

Post by blackcat »

Ironically I will be going to less but I will be going into the Venues instead of outside but not sure I will take my Camera,
Maybe its time for me to start watching them a bit more instead of Photographing them at Airshows,

I only done Rhymes and Duxford field because I love photography and they were the best way to get a good image and you were closer.
On reflection after the Hunter incident it has made me think about my options of safety a little more.

I honestly feel though that they need to bring the Aircraft back closer to the Crowd inside and maybe look at the type of Display where they can come closer to the crowd as long as the Energy of the Aircarft is taking it away from the crowd line if you know what I mean ,the US do a sneak pass which is Topside and high speed/Energy but arcing away from the crowd, Also things like Touch and Goes are pretty safe and as the Display line is normally behind the Runway again that would make it closer inside and perhaps when the Energy of the Aircraft is Towards the crowd they have to be a bit Further away?

But hey what do we know.....

Mark.

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jalfrezi
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Re: A poll - will CAA changes affect your habits?

Post by jalfrezi »

BigBlackCat wrote:I was aghast at what we saw at Shuttleworth on Sunday (Rules is rules though chaps eh..... :-X )

I suspect that Duxford will be the same or worse but will be saved by Joe Public wanting to see the Reds and the P de F. I am told that ticket numbers sold are about a half of what they would expect so far.

This is the future of airshows I think. Joe Public will always come and see the Big Attractions like the Reds, BBMF etc, but the real enthusiasts who are looking for the odd aviation gem, we will be stuffed!

The problem for us that we are 'The Few' in this context. And as someone once famously said 'The need of the many outweighs the need of the few'.... (or something similar).

Its a pity the Vulcan isn't still around :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:


I think there are more aviation enthusiasts than you think, and without a star RAF attraction they can be the difference between an airshow flop and breaking even.

The May show at Duxford is suffering for a number of reasons; poor lineup (in my opinion), parking charges, and rule changes. Whether a poor turnout will mean changes to the September show, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

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Re: A poll - will CAA changes affect your habits?

Post by reheat module »

It's probably tragic to say, but having been on the inside of the wire for nearly 40yrs and attended every show I could, that I registered my vote as fewer.
I know we can't go back in time, but I fear the future of Airshows are much handicapped by regulatory bodies; I understand the balance between participation and risk management (believe me I do!), but I fear the circuits will be handicapped by policy and costs beyond those expected to draw many crowds as of the past.
I won't be sitting on the sidelines though, I'll just be more selective and attend those of greater personal interest.
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mindy_monster
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Re: A poll - will CAA changes affect your habits?

Post by mindy_monster »

First time post, long time reader.

My view has been that I will do a few more shows this year in order to support the industry in a year when it might struggle for numbers.

However, from the feedback from Old Warden I am somewhat worried for the longer term. I like my photography, so will probably do less shows if this is becoming less satisfying.

Also I'm bringing friends this year to their first RIAT, and am a bit worried that they may be underwhelmed (I realise RIAT is MAA not CAA, but if everyone just settles for erring on the side of over-caution...).

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Re: A poll - will CAA changes affect your habits?

Post by Skyflash »

I don’t think the changes are going to affect me too much, in all honesty, although I am prepared to be proved wrong. I’m basically a ‘mil-fast-jet’ kinda guy, so as long as the new rules haven’t fcked about with the display lines at venues like Fairford, I’ll be fine.

The one show I regularly attend which *might* well be affected is the charming annual airshow at East Fortune, although frankly the display lines there already feel a little distant.

If the worst comes to the worst and the big military airshows also become neutered, pale imitations of their former selves then I will simply up the number of foreign shows I take in, and perhaps devote a little more time to fence-crawling for things like major exercises (something which I have been meaning to do more of anyway).

Reading the feedback on Shuttleworth/Old Warden, I do genuinely feel for those who get their kicks from watching the older types displayed up close. Must be crap seeing your favourite bit of the hobby butchered in such a way. :sad:
Posting comments on an aviation-related chatroom, are ya? Looks like it an' all...

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Re: A poll - will CAA changes affect your habits?

Post by john001 »

mindy_monster wrote:First time post, long time reader.

My view has been that I will do a few more shows this year in order to support the industry in a year when it might struggle for numbers.

However, from the feedback from Old Warden I am somewhat worried for the longer term. I like my photography, so will probably do less shows if this is becoming less satisfying.

Also I'm bringing friends this year to their first RIAT, and am a bit worried that they may be underwhelmed (I realise RIAT is MAA not CAA, but if everyone just settles for erring on the side of over-caution...).



If your thing is warbirds or civil airliners you may be underwhelmed at RIAT if not it is still the best military show anywhere.

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EGL
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Re: A poll - will CAA changes affect your habits?

Post by EGL »

Same as usual for me. Due to location my year is usually limited to the 2 Scottish shows and a trip to Duxford at some point so don't see any change this year.

Legends and RIAT already planned, tickets bought etc.

Then my "local" shows at East Fortune and Prestwick.

As others have said it might not be this years thats impacted the most but next year.

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Re: A poll - will CAA changes effect your habits?

Post by rambo »

jingernut wrote:
davidjones533 wrote:I seem to be one of the few who goes to shows just to see and hear the aircraft, rather than watch them through a viewfinder. Duxford will be my first show this year so genuinely interested to compare whether the experience is lessened for us non-photographers. From what I've read it's mainly photographers who are declaring the end of the British air show because they can't now see the whites of the pilots eyes through their lenses. I've looked through the pictures from Shuttleworth on here and Twitter and the shots are generally fantastic. I'm not sure how they can be better - but that's probably a lay viewpoint. Do I wish the rules had remained unchanged, of course - but they have and I'm determined not to let it spoil my hobby. I get the impression that many had predetermined not to enjoy themselves before Shuttleworth, in a similar way to folk already writing off other shows before they've even happened. I may feel differently after Duxford, but I can't envisage any scenario in which I'll declare never to go back to a venue again or give up the hobby completely.

I wonder how many photographers would enjoy themselves more if they just left the camera at home, stopped worrying about display lines, and enjoyed the sights and sounds of aircraft. I'm sure people enjoyed themselves at air shows before digital cameras.

Tin hat on.


I agree totally with what you have said. Personally, I believe it's probably the photographers who are worried about these changes more than anyone else (I could well be wrong). I can't wait to get out to some shows this year regardless of the changes.


To be fair, it is mostly photographers who are banging the drum, however, I have never had any interest it watching shows through a lens. I go regularly to many shows, and simply enjoy the aircraft and the atmosphere. I was worried the absurd changes would ruin the effect for me, and it most definitely has!! I'm sure I'm not the only non lens watcher to feel the same, and quite a few (if not all) the pilots would feel the same too. This affects the display pilots just as much as the paying public, so really I cant see anyone winning except the CAA. But why not make some money out of a tragic accident, nothing wrong with that eh...................... :wall:

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Re: A poll - will CAA changes affect your habits?

Post by CJS »

Skyflash wrote:
If the worst comes to the worst and the big military airshows also become neutered, pale imitations of their former selves then I will simply up the number of foreign shows I take in, and perhaps devote a little more time to fence-crawling for things like major exercises (something which I have been meaning to do more of anyway).



This was a part of my OP that I wonder if anyone can shed some light on. I'm very happy with the flying displays at RIAT et al, but how do they compare to yesteryear? Would I be aghast with what I see now if I could travel back to 1995? 1985?

Point being, have there been changes like this in the past, which have resulted in a furore initially but which we have all now forgotten? I'm not suggesting either way - I'm not in a position to - but I'd be interested to know the thoughts of someone who's been at this for longer than me. I have certainly seen images and video from past airshows of things which I am pretty sure, even pre Shoreham, we don't witness any longer. That crazyass Russian arrival at Yeovilton some years back, the fast jet manouvere that has been banned (I can't remember its name - arching cobra or something :grin: ) for example?

Interesting poll results so far, perhaps the CAA are keeping an eye on fora like these, I don't know, but here's a quote for them - "48% of aviation enthusiasts will be attending fewer airshows this year due to the changes in CAA regulations."
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BigBlackCat
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Re: A poll - will CAA changes affect your habits?

Post by BigBlackCat »

jalfrezi wrote:
BigBlackCat wrote:I was aghast at what we saw at Shuttleworth on Sunday (Rules is rules though chaps eh..... :-X )

I suspect that Duxford will be the same or worse but will be saved by Joe Public wanting to see the Reds and the P de F. I am told that ticket numbers sold are about a half of what they would expect so far.

This is the future of airshows I think. Joe Public will always come and see the Big Attractions like the Reds, BBMF etc, but the real enthusiasts who are looking for the odd aviation gem, we will be stuffed!

The problem for us that we are 'The Few' in this context. And as someone once famously said 'The need of the many outweighs the need of the few'.... (or something similar).

Its a pity the Vulcan isn't still around :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:


I think there are more aviation enthusiasts than you think, and without a star RAF attraction they can be the difference between an airshow flop and breaking even.

The May show at Duxford is suffering for a number of reasons; poor lineup (in my opinion), parking charges, and rule changes. Whether a poor turnout will mean changes to the September show, I guess we'll have to wait and see.


I hope so jalfrezi-because Joe Public won't even notice the restrictions and probably won't give a damn anyway as long as they get to see The Reds/BBMF..... :sad:

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jalfrezi
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Re: A poll - will CAA changes affect your habits?

Post by jalfrezi »

BigBlackCat wrote:
jalfrezi wrote:
BigBlackCat wrote:I was aghast at what we saw at Shuttleworth on Sunday (Rules is rules though chaps eh..... :-X )

I suspect that Duxford will be the same or worse but will be saved by Joe Public wanting to see the Reds and the P de F. I am told that ticket numbers sold are about a half of what they would expect so far.

This is the future of airshows I think. Joe Public will always come and see the Big Attractions like the Reds, BBMF etc, but the real enthusiasts who are looking for the odd aviation gem, we will be stuffed!

The problem for us that we are 'The Few' in this context. And as someone once famously said 'The need of the many outweighs the need of the few'.... (or something similar).

Its a pity the Vulcan isn't still around :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:


I think there are more aviation enthusiasts than you think, and without a star RAF attraction they can be the difference between an airshow flop and breaking even.

The May show at Duxford is suffering for a number of reasons; poor lineup (in my opinion), parking charges, and rule changes. Whether a poor turnout will mean changes to the September show, I guess we'll have to wait and see.


I hope so jalfrezi-because Joe Public won't even notice the restrictions and probably won't give a damn anyway as long as they get to see The Reds/BBMF..... :sad:


I agree, the average punter probably won't notice much difference, the Red Arrows aren't really impacted and probably fly under MAA regs even at civil shows anyway. I think a possible knock on effect will be to advance ticket only events - without a star RAF attraction and with a possible loss of enthusiast support, advance ticket only events may not be financially viable anymore and may need to rely on 'tickets on the day' sales, not that I would complain about that as I'm not a fan of advance ticket only events.

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Re: A poll - will CAA changes affect your habits?

Post by aviodromefriend »

Same number. Only 1 in the UK, as has been for a number of years now, only RIAT. The times of spending two consecutive nights in a coach, sleep being disrupted for a Calais-Dover crossing for shows like Waddington, Middle Wallop, Mildenhall or the only one time I went to Duxford are long gone already before that weekend with three airshow related crashes, which included Shoreham.
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Re: A poll - will CAA changes effect your habits?

Post by parsley »

Tin hat on.[/quote]

I agree totally with what you have said. Personally, I believe it's probably the photographers who are worried about these changes more than anyone else (I could well be wrong). I can't wait to get out to some shows this year regardless of the changes.[/quote]

To be fair, it is mostly photographers who are banging the drum, however, I have never had any interest it watching shows through a lens. I go regularly to many shows, and simply enjoy the aircraft and the atmosphere. I was worried the absurd changes would ruin the effect for me, and it most definitely has!! I'm sure I'm not the only non lens watcher to feel the same, and quite a few (if not all) the pilots would feel the same too. This affects the display pilots just as much as the paying public, so really I cant see anyone winning except the CAA. But why not make some money out of a tragic accident, nothing wrong with that eh..... :wall:[/quote]


Think it's actually more the case that the CAA suddenly realised that for quite a long time they hadn't even been covering their costs with regards to airshow regulation

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Re: A poll - will CAA changes affect your habits?

Post by The Baron »

I voted for fewer shows. Maybe not this year (although that remains to be seen) but potentially in the future if the CAA don't agree to exemptions such as Shuttleworth I'll be looking even more to the continent as I can't justify the associated cost with a diminished sense of thrill. Shows such as Duxford, Cosford, Biggin Hill, Farnborough and Cosby will disappear from my list of must attends. It's not the attitude that some on here agree with but I'll vote with me feet. Early indications for me are that the CAA have badly damaged a scene that really wasn't broken, merely needed tweaking.
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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: A poll - will CAA changes affect your habits?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

Very worrying numbers, from quite a high number of votes cast.

To say nearly HALF the members polled on a dedicated airshow forum will be cutting down on the number of shows visited is a statistic worthy of serious consideration.

Personally, if the spectacle is gone, and the photographic opportunities and ability to get close to the aeroplanes is gone, then for me the interest in attending diminishes greatly. A show has to be just that, a spectacle that is entertaining.

Look at Formula One for comparison. The competition and spectacle has reduced greatly in recent years, and TV audiences are in freefall. Not because people don't want to support the teams, but largely because the governing body has taken away so much of what made the sport great, with various baffling and needless rule-changes reducing it to a pastiche of its former glory. Actually, it's a pretty good comparison...

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Re: A poll - will CAA changes affect your habits?

Post by john001 »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Very worrying numbers, from quite a high number of votes cast.

To say nearly HALF the members polled on a dedicated airshow forum will be cutting down on the number of shows visited is a statistic worthy of serious consideration.

Personally, if the spectacle is gone, and the photographic opportunities and ability to get close to the aeroplanes is gone, then for me the interest in attending diminishes greatly. A show has to be just that, a spectacle that is entertaining.

Look at Formula One for comparison. The competition and spectacle has reduced greatly in recent years, and TV audiences are in freefall. Not because people don't want to support the teams, but largely because the governing body has taken away so much of what made the sport great, with various baffling and needless rule-changes reducing it to a pastiche of its former glory. Actually, it's a pretty good comparison...



I agree Dan it is a good comparison - the governing body made it safer for the drivers - the same reason the CAA made changes and maybe the result will be the same. However I also think it is up to the pilots to display the aircraft in the best way. Before any reg changes some pilots displayed better than others with great top side passes etc - they need to think again what the public wants and accommodate it the best way possible within the rules they are required to follow.

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Slinger65
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Re: A poll - will CAA changes affect your habits?

Post by Slinger65 »

I also voted "fewer" - from a low base of 3-4 shows max, it will now be 1 or 2 (at OW).

To pick up a few points made earlier...

Yes I go to Airshows to take photos but also to enjoy the spectacle - sights and sounds. Having attended many shows in the late 80s / early 90s, kids and other commitments meant a break until around the late 2000's. Since then it's been a few Farnboro's and more recently Old Warden. Farnboro is always tricky for photos, but that's OK as I can also enjoy the "spectacle" - be that getting showered in chaff from an A380 takeoff, hearing the roar of a Typhoon / Harrier / Tornado, Red Arrows etc etc. At Old Warden this weekend it was clear pretty much straight away that photographing the collection aircraft was pretty much a non starter. OK, so put the camera down and watch / listen I said to myself. Nothing. Just nothing. No spectacle to see, a pale comparison to the experience of previous years. My 15 year old son - who doesn't take photos but has always enjoyed Airshows - was similarly underwhelmed. Yes the use of the E/W runway also impacted the experience, but overall it was like watching the equivalent of your football team "park the bus" for a 0-0 from the first minute (West Brom take note!). To extend the analogy - I've now converted to another Albion (Burton) and expect that with Airshows I may end up following suit, although not sure photographing trucks on the A38 will cut it for me!

My recollection of the late 80s was that the rules were more relaxed - we were pretty close to the runway at Boscombe Down for IAT and had B2s, B52s etc taking off within what seemed like touching distance, not to mention Phantom beating up the runway and F111 flaming displays. Mass helicopter approach to the crowd line at Middle Wallop also comes to mind. I guess Ramstein changed things but pretty sure this was after that time.

Organised petitioning and feedback is the way to go - from this community, airshow organisers, display teams / pilots and the like. Getting the press / media onside would be a tremendous boon - DanO and others, you must have some contacts...? It's early days in this season but the marker has been set, it will not get better unless we and others work together to be heard and have more considered changes made which balance safety and spectacle.
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Brevet Cable
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Re: A poll - will CAA changes affect your habits?

Post by Brevet Cable »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Look at Formula One for comparison. The competition and spectacle has reduced greatly in recent years, and TV audiences are in freefall.

It hasn't been a spectacle for a good number of years.
The main reason for the decline in TV viewing figures in the UK is because of the BBC's con-job of selling off the rights of the majority of the races to PPV......and they'll decline even further when it goes wholly PPV , as has happened in other Countries.
One major similarity , though , is in the relationship between the rule-makers ( FIA // CAA ) and the participants ( F1 Teams & track owners // display pilots & airshow organisers ) -- in both cases , the rule-makers appear unwilling to listen to the views of - or take advice from - the participants.

You'd like to think that with the forthcoming MAA review they'll seek advice and feedback from the organisers & display pilots , but I have a bad feeling that they won't.
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Re: A poll - will CAA changes affect your habits?

Post by paullangford »

I'll adapt to the new regs and probably go to the same amount of shows and give my support.
I'd hate to see some operators go under because of lack of money, and then standby and watch the aircraft go Stateside ......or be grounded.
I can see the other side of the argument by not going and making a stand to the CAA, but I can't see the CAA listening or taking note of the action in reality.
I think the regs are here to stay, & they won't be reversed or softened in the near future.

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Re: A poll - will CAA changes affect your habits?

Post by Andyperkins »

Same number for me but I only go to three each year anyway (Cosford/Yeovilton/RIAT) and the only photos I take are of static aircraft, sometimes video a bit but not much so unsure if I will notice much difference.

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Re: A poll - will CAA changes affect your habits?

Post by CJS »

Interesting comparison with F1 Dan. I wonder if numbers of those actually watching the races live at the track has declined though?

Would that not be a fairer comparison as we don't really have the chance to watch most airshows on tv / online?
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Re: A poll - will CAA changes affect your habits?

Post by rob68 »

Find myself agreeing with Dan as I go to F1 and have had let's say a discussion with silverstone customer services. I purchased my F1 tickets for the 2016 race at the 2015 race as they offered a £10 discount. 6 months later silverstone emailed a promotion, buy your 2016 tickets before end of February and get something like 25% off plus free tickets for BTCC and a bike race, give or take this is worth £200. That stinks and proves ticket sales are down, maybe that is because Hamilton will never be a Button, Hill or Mansel but even so.

As for rallying which I also spectate at, it is dieing on its ...... The forestry commission this week have just doubled the charge for use of their land. A small event could now be charged around £22k. They are also getting upset with how close you stand and let's face it it if you don't get mud on your camera your not close enough. Any of this sound familiar? To say I'm hacked off is an understatement with airshows, rallying, the rumour of the Bwlch car park closure, higher fences at motorsport events Hamilton acting like a child and the Mclaren useless I'm taking up bus spotting.....not

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Re: A poll - will CAA changes affect your habits?

Post by Slappywag »

Already voted with my feet this year. 3 foreign shows (After 2 in the last 5 years) and RIAT (Usually 5 minimum UK).

It's going to be a year of comparisons, and I'm already sure that the trend to spread wings across to the quality on the continent will only increase.