F-16 engine event at Zeltweg

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p2philip
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F-16 engine event at Zeltweg

Post by p2philip »

Hello,

Just returned from the Airpower show in Zeltweg and I have some questions concerning the Belgian F-16. On the first showday we noticed from some moment on during the display the afterburner looked unusual. A long thin flame could clearly be seen despite the sunny weather. I would expect such a sight in grey weather but not on a bright day. Some photographers near to us also noticed that flame which was visible during the rest of the flight. On the second day the jet suffered an engine failure and cancelled the show after a few minutes.
I was wondering if the odd burner on Friday led to the failure on the next day - maybe someone has some technical knowledge about the reasons!? Also when a bunch of enthusiasts are able to spot something unusual should there not be someone from the team on the ground to notice the same and check the engine after landing?
You can see the burner in this video, especially after the slow turn around 2:30min. Engine failure at 6:08 min.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Cin1M5_muQQ

Greetings,
Philip

ArabJazzie
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Re: F-16 engine failure at Zeltweg

Post by ArabJazzie »

Nice video as it has brought back memories of what im missing out on!

However, i can now see the headlines in the Daily Whatever banning all airshows because a defect can occur on a machine at any time! Think its a bit too dramatic to call this an engine failure, just a tech issue as the engine was clearly still producing power as it taxied in with no fire engines following!

And yes, the ground crew do watch their act in action and will look into whatever they see. I have a hazy memory of being told of an F-16 that required a new engine after one of the crew noticed something during the display.
Arabest,
Geoff.
52 in a year! We must be certifiable!

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CJS
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Re: F-16 engine failure at Zeltweg

Post by CJS »

I don't have an ounce of technical knowledge but I do know that there is no way on earth they would have flown with the same jet on the second day if there was even the tiniest chance there was (still?) something wrong. So I imagine the two are unrelated.
You can't polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter.

p2philip
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Re: F-16 engine failure at Zeltweg

Post by p2philip »

Dont get me wrong this is not about sensationalism or making a fuss about a minor incident. The video is not mine by the way! I just can't believe no one else but a few spotters took note of the 'unusual' afterburner, and the same jet suffering an engine malfunction (better word :smile: ) on the next day is an interesting coincidence. I'm with your opinion CJS that's why I was wondering if anyone can explain the burner flame on the day before!?

Here are some of my shots:

Image

Image

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aviodromefriend
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Re: F-16 engine failure at Zeltweg

Post by aviodromefriend »

p2philip wrote:Also when a bunch of enthusiasts are able to spot something unusual should there not be someone from the team on the ground to notice the same and check the engine after landing?
You don't need to be an enthusiast to see something went wrong. Even our coachdriver could see it. Maybe also worth to consider that only the spare left for home during the Saturday. As apparently something happened on Friday to, I fear some people will be called in for a talk with their commander.
A weather forecast is a forecast and just that

Mike Moses, Launch Integration Manager Space Shuttle Program

Slappywag
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Re: F-16 engine failure at Zeltweg

Post by Slappywag »

It was a compressor stall. Engine didn't fail, but wise to abort and land. Will need some spannering.

dinger
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Re: F-16 engine failure at Zeltweg

Post by dinger »

Compressor stall hence the belch from the intake as the compressor surged. The EEC/FADEC controller did its job as in the youtube video you can hear the exhaust nozzle motoring to ENC (Emergency Nozzle Closed) if the F-16 has this function which is present on Tornado if the Afterburner fails. This gives enough dry power if required to get the pilot into a safe position for recovery. A number of factors may have caused this and the result could be a round of boroscope inspections in order to determine if there is any damage or worst case a complete donk change.

Dinger.

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RichPittman
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Re: F-16 engine failure at Zeltweg

Post by RichPittman »

Demo pilot left in the spare as he was committed to the show in Hradec Kralove the same Day
Always remember "If you cannot turn tight...you cannot fight!"

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RichPittman
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Re: F-16 engine failure at Zeltweg

Post by RichPittman »

I was also speaking to someone that said they were well aware of the large flame.
But the systems were not showing a problem.
Always remember "If you cannot turn tight...you cannot fight!"

Dan423
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Re: F-16 engine failure at Zeltweg

Post by Dan423 »

Dinger is correct here; a comp stall followed by the cenc closing the nozzle, although this is in the pilot's ep's should a stall occur. If necessary the deec (or pilot if he deems necessary) will kick the engine into sec mode to continue flying without the engine being controlled by the deec (a bit like your car bypassing the ecu to drive home in limp mode if it thinks there's a problem).

The flame looks as though there's a crack in one of the spray rings at 6 o'clock or possibly a loose B nut on no.5 scavenge or the transfer tube. The engine monitoring systems won't show that though. Either way no big deal and nothing to worry about. Hope that helps.

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maltwoser
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Re: F-16 engine failure at Zeltweg

Post by maltwoser »

Interesting stuff....

a loose B nut on no.5 scavenge or the transfer tube.


There's a scavenge side to the reheat fuel system? Is the No 5 scavenge not related to the rear (LP turbine) bearing oil chamber?

Genuine question! :smile:

Dan423
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Re: F-16 engine failure at Zeltweg

Post by Dan423 »

It can, very rarely, leak into the duct thus into secondary air into the aug. Has to be a spectacular leak though! Looking at those pictures my money would be on a spray ring.

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maltwoser
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Re: F-16 engine failure at Zeltweg

Post by maltwoser »

Thanks Dan. Would the engine have to come out to fix that? Wonder if he went home in dry range only.

ArabJazzie
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Re: F-16 engine failure at Zeltweg

Post by ArabJazzie »

Good to see the engine bigwigs are in! Give me a Ford Kent engine any day! :lol:
Arabest,
Geoff.
52 in a year! We must be certifiable!

Dan423
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Re: F-16 engine failure at Zeltweg

Post by Dan423 »

Not sure if they'd have to pull it on a 16..... I work on the 15's for a different nation so I couldn't say, not sure what access panels are where in the lawn darts, sorry I mean F-16's!

FlightVideo
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Re: F-16 engine failure at Zeltweg

Post by FlightVideo »

4K Ultra HD video of the Belgian F-16 After Burner stall with static frames of the event

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x51UYlumFS8[/youtube]

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monographix
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Re: F-16 engine failure at Zeltweg

Post by monographix »

Any possibility they installed (or any other way) some fuel (or other substance) leaking application to enhance the appearance of the AB flame for the show and something went wrong with it the second day?

Dan423
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Re: F-16 engine failure at Zeltweg

Post by Dan423 »

Nope, no facility (or reason) for that on those engines.

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Russ
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Re: F-16 engine failure at Zeltweg

Post by Russ »

The use of terms like "failure" and "emergency" on this thread are a Daily Mail reporters wet dream. :down:

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st24
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Re: F-16 engine failure at Zeltweg

Post by st24 »

Russ wrote:The use of terms like "failure" and "emergency" on this thread are a Daily Mail reporters wet dream. :down:

:grin: Indeed. Now we have analysed this down to the exact spray ring and discussed augs and ducts and nozzles :dizzy: can we amend the thread title as before this was even gone into in so much detail, in no way was this ever an engine failure... :facepalm:
You caaan't trust the system... Maaan!

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