RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Discuss all things 'aviation' that do not fit into a more appropriate forum
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Pringles
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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by Pringles »

iaint wrote: :facepalm:
I'll see if I can make it simpler for you... the comparison Peter is making is between the cost of RAF organised shoots.

The TLE shoots have been ignored as they are not relevant in this argument! :facepalm:
Makes no difference where their donations go whether it be RAFBF, station charities, or a fund to highlight the plight of orphaned Patagonian Guinea pigs.

:facepalm: Not relevant? They're the primary nightshoot provider, including at RAF bases, and using Dan O's argument they're the root cause of the increased prices! Peter seemed to be getting on a high horse about his precious Cosford when they've apparently facilitated this increase!
If life gives you melons then you're probably dyslexic

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CJS
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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by CJS »

Pringles wrote:
iaint wrote: :facepalm:
I'll see if I can make it simpler for you... the comparison Peter is making is between the cost of RAF organised shoots.

The TLE shoots have been ignored as they are not relevant in this argument! :facepalm:
Makes no difference where their donations go whether it be RAFBF, station charities, or a fund to highlight the plight of orphaned Patagonian Guinea pigs.

:facepalm: Not relevant? They're the primary nightshoot provider, including at RAF bases, and using Dan O's argument they're the root cause of the increased prices! Peter seemed to be getting on a high horse about his precious Cosford when they've apparently facilitated this increase!


If that's what they're collecting for, I'm in.

It seems that this nightshoot is being organised by the base themselves. Nothing to do with TLE unless I'm missing something.

As others have said and others will no doubt say in the future, for what this is it is massively overpriced. Whether I or anyone else can afford to go not is of no relevance to that. How anyone can seriously suggest that £50 for this event is a fair price when you can see...

...oh I can't even be bothered.

#savetheorphanedguineapigs
#cavytime
#istillthinkfiftyquidistoomuchtophotographsomeaeroplanesinthedarkeveniftheymightnotbearoundforverymuchlonger
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disgruntled
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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by disgruntled »

A further point. And accepting that I am not in possession of the full details, If the event is being organised by a commercial company that will benefit financially (I'm not sure if this is TLE) then regardless of whether they donate to service charities the amount charged by Government agencies will be significantly higher.

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jalfrezi
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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by jalfrezi »

Pringles wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:What IS the matter with you? ...you only post to embarrass yourself by trying to get one over on me.

Nice to meet you Mr Pot
:handbag:


I think they should get a room :pinkwafer:

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Paul_Reflex
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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by Paul_Reflex »

I can't attend this because of a work event, but otherwise I would go. I've become a bit of a sucker for these expensive shoots lately, but I wonder sometimes what I gain from driving for hours and paying through the nose only to see shots identical to my own appear on social media before I've had a chance to edit mine.

My brother is into very tacky glamour photography and attends organised shoots with bad wardrobe, makeup and lighting and models that do not really want to be there. These shoots are an apalling exploitation of almost everyone involved and a denigration of photography itself. Because of this I used to look down on him for attending them, but on reflection I think that I am not on the moral high ground because these night shoots are not much different in character really.

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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

Paul_Reflex wrote:I can't attend this because of a work event, but otherwise I would go. I've become a bit of a sucker for these expensive shoots lately, but I wonder sometimes what I gain from driving for hours and paying through the nose only to see shots identical to my own appear on social media before I've had a chance to edit mine.

My brother is into very tacky glamour photography and attends organised shoots with bad wardrobe, makeup and lighting and models that do not really want to be there. These shoots are an apalling exploitation of almost everyone involved and a denigration of photography itself. Because of this I used to look down on him for attending them, but on reflection I think that I am not on the moral high ground because these night shoots are not much different in character really.


A good post.

These shoots just encourage copycat photography. Once you've seen one just-about-in-focus shot of a Squirrel with rotors turning, under nasty orange lights at Northolt, you've seen them all.

Putting the cost to one side for a moment, these shoots do very little to further aviation photography. Being able to set up a tripod and operate a remote shutter doesn't turn one into Katsu Tokunaga overnight.

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SWATCO
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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by SWATCO »

Dan O'Hagan wrote: Being able to set up a tripod and operate a remote shutter doesn't turn one into Katsu Tokunaga overnight.


And does the majority want to? Or, are they there for their own personal satisfaction, to see some aircraft they do not get to witness everyday, to switch off for a couple of hours, and to more importantly, enjoy themselves.

UKTopgun
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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by UKTopgun »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
Paul_Reflex wrote:I can't attend this because of a work event, but otherwise I would go. I've become a bit of a sucker for these expensive shoots lately, but I wonder sometimes what I gain from driving for hours and paying through the nose only to see shots identical to my own appear on social media before I've had a chance to edit mine.

My brother is into very tacky glamour photography and attends organised shoots with bad wardrobe, makeup and lighting and models that do not really want to be there. These shoots are an apalling exploitation of almost everyone involved and a denigration of photography itself. Because of this I used to look down on him for attending them, but on reflection I think that I am not on the moral high ground because these night shoots are not much different in character really.


A good post.

These shoots just encourage copycat photography. Once you've seen one just-about-in-focus shot of a Squirrel with rotors turning, under nasty orange lights at Northolt, you've seen them all.

Putting the cost to one side for a moment, these shoots do very little to further aviation photography. Being able to set up a tripod and operate a remote shutter doesn't turn one into Katsu Tokunaga overnight.


I am not a photographer so can only assume this 'handbags' stuff is all about the photography click (see what I did there) arguing amongst themselves and putting each other down, but Dan, I do have to say that whilst you mention 'seeing one, seeing them all' type shots, with all due respect, some of your shots are of that ilk, in fact 80% of shots posted on UKAR are, of fliers in particular. A bit identikit. Often lovely lighting, composition etc etc but ultimately when most of you have the same kit, in the same place at the same time, it is bound to be the case that most shots look, well, similar....

alisdairanderson
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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by alisdairanderson »

StuWeston wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote: Being able to set up a tripod and operate a remote shutter doesn't turn one into Katsu Tokunaga overnight.


And does the majority want to? Or, are they there for their own personal satisfaction, to see some aircraft they do not get to witness everyday, to switch off for a couple of hours, and to more importantly, enjoy themselves.



Well said!!!!!
Alisdair

Elliott Marsh
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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by Elliott Marsh »

It may be simplistic, but I've always taken the view that if I'm shelling out £50+ it's for a fairly exclusive (i.e. not something available to the masses) opportunity to photograph an aircraft or numerous aircraft in a controlled and well organised setting that would not otherwise be available to me. The money also covers donations to operators/charities, lighting, organisational costs, aircraft operation and people's time. The latter, where busy owners, operators and pilots are concerned, is not something to be underestimated.

Take the TLE Stow Maries shoot, for instance. Non-stop shooting on the BE2e, Albatros, Snipe and Scout from early evening until well after dark. It wasn't cheap, but nowhere else would I have the opportunity to photograph those aeroplanes with a clear backdrop, unimpeded by barriers of crowds, for several hours from as many angles as I want? After a wide angle with re-enactors? Got it. Close-up cockpit detail shots in sunlight? Done. Want an aircraft moved to shift the shadows from the fuselage? By all means. Multiple flights from the BE2 and Scout coincided with the shoot, and there were night runs from the Snipe (one at twilight, one in the dark) and Scout to conclude the evening. It was one of the best photoshoots I've been to, and absolutely worth the considerable price - how else would I ever have the opportunity to photograph those aeroplanes in such a way? It was so good that I bought a ticket to the next one without hesitation, and will likely buy a ticket to the dawn shoot (which looked wonderful last year).

The point around similar photos is one I've discussed with people before. I guess it is what you make it. I have been baffled by people congregating around one position at photoshoots, all getting the same front 3/4 shot from the same distance. Those who approach the subject with originality usually come away with the more dynamic results. The same applies to airshow photography. People covet topside passes, but how boring would it be if all you have to show of an airshow were topsides?

It all boils down to my first point, for me. I feel like I'm paying high end prices for a high end product, and will continue to do so as long as I'm getting what I perceive to be value for money.
Last edited by Elliott Marsh on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cg_341
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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by cg_341 »

Elliott Marsh wrote:Take the TLE Stow Maries shoot, for instance. Non-stop shooting on the BE2e, Albatros, Snipe and Scout from early evening until well after dark. It wasn't cheap, but nowhere else would I have the opportunity to photograph those aeroplanes with a clear backdrop, unimpeded by barriers of crowds, for several hours from as many angles as I want? After a wide angle with re-enactors? Got it. Close-up cockpit detail shots in sunlight? Done. Want an aircraft moved to shift the shadows from the fuselage? By all means. Multiple flights from the BE2 and Scout coincided with the shoot, and there were night runs from the Snipe (one at twilight, one in the dark) and Scout to conclude the evening. It was one of the best photoshoots I've been to, and absolutely worth the considerable price - how else would I ever have the opportunity to photograph those aeroplanes in such a way? It was so good that I bought a ticket to the next one without hesitation, and will likely buy a ticket to the dawn shoot (which looked wonderful last year).

There was an event at a small airfield in the north of England recently which required ATS, fire cover, etc. for the evening.

Aircraft were moved to remove shadows, provide different backdrops, etc. They were run, at sunset and in the dark, well lit in both cases. 12 people, at the most.

Oh, and it cost a tenner.

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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by Elliott Marsh »

Good on them (/you?)! I saw a photo on Facebook recently of the beautiful MS317 at night, is that the event you're referring to?

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The Baron
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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by The Baron »

For me you'd be talking anything from half a day to a day and a half of annual leave (depending on start and finish times), a full tank of fuel, maybe a hotel, then food on top of the £50 asking price. To shoot a half dozen Tornadoes. Now for that sort of outlay I could, and would, do two full UK airshows or one on the continent with the added benefit of a full days entertainment.
I did my first night shoot last year with the Gazelle Squadron and apart from it being really cold I thoroughly enjoyed it. I found it good value for money.
Marhams night shoot I don't. I could combine it with a bit of spotting at Mildenhall but to be truthful I'd rather put the money and holiday to something else. Something I don't get the nasty feeling of being ripped off for.
I know other people feel different, but that's my view.
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CJS
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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by CJS »

TKK 140 wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:
TKK 140 wrote:
Pringles wrote:
iaint wrote: :facepalm:
I'll see if I can make it simpler for you... the comparison Peter is making is between the cost of RAF organised shoots.

The TLE shoots have been ignored as they are not relevant in this argument! :facepalm:
Makes no difference where their donations go whether it be RAFBF, station charities, or a fund Beto highlight the plight of orphaned Patagonian Guinea pigs.

:facepalm: Not relevant? They're the primary nightshoot provider, including at RAF bases, and using Dan O's argument they're the root cause of the increased prices! Peter seemed to be getting on a high horse about his precious Cosford when they've apparently facilitated this increase!


Doh very often scrounges the use of a camera so coughing up £50 is likely to be a big issue.
:grin:


What IS the matter with you? Ever since I critiqued your abysmal photographs of the Raptors at Lakenheath you only post to embarrass yourself by trying to get one over on me.


Yeah, because owning four DSLR bodies really isn't enough, is it?

You wanted wit, you got it. Bet my four are bigger than yours! :ninja:
Got quite a few over you and you are so smart, not!
You are a bully that's where it started and has continued. Next.


I've actually had enough of this nonsense clogging up otherwise interesting threads. Just give it a rest will you?
With just the slightest bit of finesse, I might have made a little less mess.

TKK 140
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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by TKK 140 »

The Baron wrote:For me you'd be talking anything from half a day to a day and a half of annual leave (depending on start and finish times), a full tank of fuel, maybe a hotel, then food on top of the £50 asking price. To shoot a half dozen Tornadoes. Now for that sort of outlay I could, and would, do two full UK airshows or one on the continent with the added benefit of a full days entertainment.
I did my first night shoot last year with the Gazelle Squadron and apart from it being really cold I thoroughly enjoyed it. I found it good value for money.
Marhams night shoot I don't. I could combine it with a bit of spotting at Mildenhall but to be truthful I'd rather put the money and holiday to something else. Something I don't get the nasty feeling of being ripped off for.
I know other people feel different, but that's my view.


If you lived closer would that change your view, say 2 hours away?

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jalfrezi
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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by jalfrezi »

These are some of the shots I took from the last Marham photoshoot. https://flic.kr/s/aHskMVHFnq

While I'm glad I went, I'm not planning on attending this one, like others have said it wasn't great value for money in my opinion, but if they fill all of the spaces at £50 then good on them, and I hope they use the proceeds for a worthwhile cause!

TKK 140
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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by TKK 140 »

Elliott Marsh wrote:It may be simplistic, but I've always taken the view that if I'm shelling out £50+ it's for a fairly exclusive (i.e. not something available to the masses) opportunity to photograph an aircraft or numerous aircraft in a controlled and well organised setting that would not otherwise be available to me. The money also covers donations to operators/charities, lighting, organisational costs, aircraft operation and people's time. The latter, where busy owners, operators and pilots are concerned, is not something to be underestimated.

Take the TLE Stow Maries shoot, for instance. Non-stop shooting on the BE2e, Albatros, Snipe and Scout from early evening until well after dark. It wasn't cheap, but nowhere else would I have the opportunity to photograph those aeroplanes with a clear backdrop, unimpeded by barriers of crowds, for several hours from as many angles as I want? After a wide angle with re-enactors? Got it. Close-up cockpit detail shots in sunlight? Done. Want an aircraft moved to shift the shadows from the fuselage? By all means. Multiple flights from the BE2 and Scout coincided with the shoot, and there were night runs from the Snipe (one at twilight, one in the dark) and Scout to conclude the evening. It was one of the best photoshoots I've been to, and absolutely worth the considerable price - how else would I ever have the opportunity to photograph those aeroplanes in such a way? It was so good that I bought a ticket to the next one without hesitation, and will likely buy a ticket to the dawn shoot (which looked wonderful last year).

The point around similar photos is one I've discussed with people before. I guess it is what you make it. I have been baffled by people congregating around one position at photoshoots, all getting the same front 3/4 shot from the same distance. Those who approach the subject with originality usually come away with the more dynamic results. The same applies to airshow photography. People covet topside passes, but how boring would it be if all you have to show of an airshow were topsides?

It all boils down to my first point, for me. I feel like I'm paying high end prices for a high end product, and will continue to do so as long as I'm getting what I perceive to be value for money.



Very much agree with that sentiment I enjoyed that event very much too! A little cold, but all the photographers were friendly and seeing the snipe and scout running in the dark produced some memorable photographs.

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Pen Pusher
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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by Pen Pusher »

Dan O'Hagan wrote: under nasty orange lights at Northolt,


What nasty orange lights at Northolt??

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The Baron
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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by The Baron »

TKK 140 wrote:
The Baron wrote:For me you'd be talking anything from half a day to a day and a half of annual leave (depending on start and finish times), a full tank of fuel, maybe a hotel, then food on top of the £50 asking price. To shoot a half dozen Tornadoes. Now for that sort of outlay I could, and would, do two full UK airshows or one on the continent with the added benefit of a full days entertainment.
I did my first night shoot last year with the Gazelle Squadron and apart from it being really cold I thoroughly enjoyed it. I found it good value for money.
Marhams night shoot I don't. I could combine it with a bit of spotting at Mildenhall but to be truthful I'd rather put the money and holiday to something else. Something I don't get the nasty feeling of being ripped off for.
I know other people feel different, but that's my view.


If you lived closer would that change your view, say 2 hours away?


I've got to be honest, probably not. The distance isn't an issue for me, it's what I perceive to be either good value or an enjoyable day out.
Plus my utter hatred of hi-viz doesn't help.
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benji1867
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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by benji1867 »

Pen Pusher wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote: under nasty orange lights at Northolt,


What nasty orange lights at Northolt??

Brian



Whilst the lights at Northolt are not orange themselves most shots at Northolt do produce an orange glow due to the excessive light pollution from the surrounding areas.

Ben

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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by Pen Pusher »

That's the nature of cloud cover above sodium street lighting not as Dan stated 'nasty orange lights at Northolt'

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G-CVIX
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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by G-CVIX »

Realistically £50 just doesn't represent enough of a product for the financial outlay.

I know people have talked about charity involvement upping the price etc, but don't most airshows in the UK advertise​ at least some charity involvement?

Hampshire Aviation's post about the event that was a tenner pretty much sums it up for me. And as someone else has said, factoring in fuel and hotels and time off and you can do one or two airshows with full displays, museum visits, all sorts, for the same amount.

Okay some have said it's a high end product and they've found them to be worth the money, well at £50 a ticket, a lot of people won't ever be able to discover if in fact it is worth the cost.

Who has £50 to gamble on wether something will be good enough? If you do, crack on, but a lot of people don't.

And is it really a premium product? For £50 I'd expect a few special things chucked in. Limited edition patches, prints, collectors items, some sort of showing that we, the consumer, actually matter.

I'm saying now that I think that in 2018 with the RAF's anniversary, these kind of events will start breaking £75 a ticket.

A shame, as i feel these events form a special relationship between the forces and the enthusiast, which is being eroded by profiteering.

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UK Airshow Review
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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by UK Airshow Review »

Members,

This thread has been cleaned up (lets face it, less to clean up here than the Vulcan thread). The Staff team are getting very sick of the playground immature bickering and blatant trolling of other members. Those involved have been dealt with.

Please behave like adults and treat each other with respect, if we have to start banning members - including long standing ones - we will.

Thanks

UKAR

Elliott Marsh
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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by Elliott Marsh »

I don't think the £10 shoot point is entirely cut and dry, though.

For £10, as far as I can make out, you could shoot one aircraft under the lights, which engine ran with a hangar as a backdrop (if the images on the Morane FB page tell the whole story).

Stow gave you four WWI aeroplanes positioned against a flawless backdrop, three engine runs, re-enactors & three local flights. I want to say it was £50-60.

Not a knock on anyone involved, but it's not quite the same thing, is it? To my mind, you get what you pay for, and the pricing for those two events seems entirely appropriate. To charge in the region of a tenner for what Stow offered would be bonkers, quite frankly!

john001
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Re: RAF Marham Enthusiasts Day 2017

Post by john001 »

So roughly how many people went to Stow?