United Airlines...

Discuss all things 'aviation' that do not fit into a more appropriate forum
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ted633
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Re: United Airlines...

Post by ted633 »

[quote="speedbird2639". United's cred wasn't great already as they were the airline who insisted some teenagers couldn'tget on a flight in leggings/ yoga pants.[/quote]

Again, this is misleading info from the press. The people in this case were on staff travel, so have to conform to a stricter dress code. I work for a British airline and if I tried to travel on a staff ticket whilst not wearing the stated dress code (eg shorts) I wouldn't be allowed to board.

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ericbee123
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Re: United Airlines...

Post by ericbee123 »

I've been asked to move once seated on an aircraft in America on a transatlantic flight to the UK. They wanted me to move from my aisle seat to the middle seat on the back row. It was American Airlines and I said no. That was the end of that.

I've been TOLD to move once seated on an aircraft in America on a transatlantic flight to the UK on another occasion. No asking. That was United. I had been seated for 15 mins. Next to an American Sikh doctor. We had chatted for the whole 15 mins and I was thinking, this is going to be a lovely flight, what a nice man. United flight attendant leaned over, said "move, to here as a couple want your seat so they can fly together". I waited for the doctor when I got off the aircraft at Manchester, said sorry I was moved, found out he was getting the train to Huddersfield to visit relatives and gave him a lift in my car over the border to Yorkshire, an hour and half on my journey the other way, as I live on the Lancashire coast.

Didn't get bumped off the flight though. Just seems American airlines ( with a little A meaning American carriers, not AA ) are a little rude by default ( I find as a single traveller ) as opposed to European airlines.
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.

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boff180
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Re: United Airlines...

Post by boff180 »

I've had it on a BA flight home... paid the extra money for a front row legroom seat at check in (about £180) then on the plane got asked to move so a couple could sit together who were in the normal seats, I refused on the grounds I'd paid for this seat.

They then went and sat a very tall American next to me who complained about legroom further back... without having to pay an extra penny :mad:

Tomahawk
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Re: United Airlines...

Post by Tomahawk »

MicrolightDriver wrote:
Tomahawk wrote:...the United CEO has already publicly stated that incorrect procedures were followed I think that a successful lawsuit is highly likely.


If the CEO is distancing himself from the decisions then perhaps they are opening themselves up to a law suit. Especially in the US rather than the under the EU law I and originally CJS had been discussing.

Legally though, even in the US, if they maintained that they requested / had to insist that a person leave their aircraft and the person refused to do so, to the point of a physical confrontation with security staff, then it might be a different story.

Best quote so far has to be the statement that the passenger 'fell on to the armrest' as he was escorted from the aircraft.
It is the US though so what shall we start at? $50,000,000?


United CEO now saying that correct procedures were followed by his staff, but one airport security staff member now 'placed on leave' so it gets more complex. Also suggestion is that the four staff members who needed to fly turned up after the plane was fully loaded so it wasn't overbooked.

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Spiny Norman
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Re: United Airlines...

Post by Spiny Norman »

What were they thinking? Shocking PR disaster for United. I bet the other airlines are rubbing their hands in glee at the increase in future business.

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Re: United Airlines...

Post by bernarde »

[tweet]https://twitter.com/RoyalJordanian/status/851526371327311873[/tweet]

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speedbird2639
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Re: United Airlines...

Post by speedbird2639 »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39563570

United CEO's message to his employees leaked Press.

NickB
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Re: United Airlines...

Post by NickB »

United Airlines deserve everything that will be coming their way after this incident.

I hope he sues their bum-bum off.

Disgusting, appalling behaviour.
Last edited by Wissam24 on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: rule 5

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G-CVIX
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Re: United Airlines...

Post by G-CVIX »

I think I'd be disruptive and belligerent if i was being forced off for what seems like no reason. Funny how UA big bosses are saying he was belligerent and disruptive but not one passenger has reported that.

Surely trying to defend it is worse than putting your hands up and saying "we were wrong" and getting rid of those responsible?

If that's your procedure for dealing with this particular situation then change it.

I hope they are sued and that a clear message is sent that this is not an acceptable way to treat another human being.

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CJS
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Re: United Airlines...

Post by CJS »

No-one is denying the Neanderthal way that the situation was dealt with but I really don't see what he can sue for? He was told to leave a flight by the captain and he refused. The other three (including his wife) don't seem to have done the same. Yes he had somewhere to be, but so did all the other passengers. Yes, United made a pig's ear of getting him off, but what exactly have they done which is litigious?

As for the argument that he might somehow be emotionally scarred because the video 'went viral', give me strength. If this had happened even ten years ago I very much doubt any of us would even know it had happened at all.

Someone else on here suggested 'false arrest'. Really? If I was told to leave a flight and didn't, I'd be arrested. Not falsely, because I had broken the law.

Social media making a poo-poostorm out of an appallingly handled but minor incident.

Tin hat etc etc...

edit - I much prefer poo-poostorm Sam, thank you. :grin:
Last edited by Wissam24 on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: rule 5
With just the slightest bit of finesse, I might have made a little less mess.

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G-CVIX
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Re: United Airlines...

Post by G-CVIX »

Defamation of character after UA's CEO made his statement given that the videos and witnesses put the staff and security in the wrong, not the passenger.

Use of inappropriate force.

The reasons are all there, and someone with better legal knowledge than i can explain further. Who knows if he will or even want to.

Tomahawk
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Re: United Airlines...

Post by Tomahawk »

Chicago aviation security not condoning the actions of their staff member and stating it was not in accordance with procedures, that should get the lawsuit moving and if it transpires it needed a police officer to get him off once he said no then false arrest is a real possibility.

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CJS
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Re: United Airlines...

Post by CJS »

G-CVIX wrote:Defamation of character after UA's CEO made his statement given that the videos and witnesses put the staff and security in the wrong, not the passenger.

Use of inappropriate force.

The reasons are all there, and someone with better legal knowledge than i can explain further. Who knows if he will or even want to.


Defamation of character? Oh please: only (really, really only) because someone filmed it and put it on Twitter is this even being suggested as a reason. The video posted on the first page looks horrific, and as I and others have suggested, the situation clearly could have been handled with a little more finesse (to put it mildly), but the reaction of the other passengers is interesting - some are filming it, one lady manages to repeatedly sound so appalled by it all that she stays firmly in her seat (could she not have said wait, wait, this guy clearly needs to be somewhere, I'll wait until tomorrow? Yes, she could).

G-CVIX, you'd be disruptive and belligerent, but would you really, in the end, get to the point where you'd be dragged off the aircraft (because that is what would happen to you if you continued to refuse)?

As for the force, yes it seems like more than enough was used, but what, exactly, would you have done with a passenger who was refusing to leave a flight that you had told him to leave? Just change your mind and pick someone else instead? That'd be great leadership wouldn't it?
With just the slightest bit of finesse, I might have made a little less mess.

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speedbird2639
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Re: United Airlines...

Post by speedbird2639 »

and someone with better legal knowledge than i can explain further


Where is Tommy? Of all the times we could benefit from his knowledge and he's nowhere to be seen or heard.

davidjones533

Re: United Airlines...

Post by davidjones533 »

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Last edited by davidjones533 on Sun 12 Aug 2018, 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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G-CVIX
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Re: United Airlines...

Post by G-CVIX »

As a doctor, having a headline saying you are disruptive and belligerent is potentially damaging to his career and livelihood.

Don't forget the climate in the States regarding law enforcement and people of different ethnic backgrounds. If he feels like he has been unfairly targeted because of his race, or even if it's in the back of his mind that that could be at play, it could make someone react worse than otherwise.

Maybe he has had a terrible few days and just needed to get home and get back to work? There are all sorts of factors that could make someone react a certain way on a certain occasion.

I understand his reaction, is my point.

Okay so procedure calls for passengers to be removed but why at random? Why didn't they pick a system rather than just seeing who wanted to and then having crack. If there's a clear system people won't be offended or feel targeted and then wouldn't react badly.

Everything in this case is the fault of the airline from start to finish in my opinion. They created his reaction themselves.
Last edited by G-CVIX on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

Tomahawk
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Re: United Airlines...

Post by Tomahawk »

davidjones533 wrote:I think the BBC sums up the whole debacle rather well...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39563570

Can an airline really treat passengers like this?
Yes. The captain is in charge of the aircraft. And if he or she decides that someone needs to be offloaded, that command has to be obeyed. From the moment that the unfortunate individual in this case said, "I'm staying put", he became a disruptive passenger. From that moment he was disobeying the captain's command. Officials were legally entitled to remove him, and as the videos show, he was dragged from the plane. It appears from the evidence that the law was broken - by him, not by the airline. But I would be surprised if United pressed charges.

Does it happen often?
No - normally airlines handle cases of too many passengers for the available seats much better than this, and generally do so at the gate. First, the airline asks for volunteers. The idea is that everyone has their price: an amount of cash, travel vouchers or other bribes such as a round trip anywhere the airline goes. Flexible travellers, including me, actively pursue overbooked flights to keep our travel costs down.

So what went wrong here?
It appears to have been a series of errors. A group of flight crew needed to be in Louisville, properly rested, in order to operate the next morning's plane. Had they not been able to get there, then many more passengers would have had their plans messed up. The big mistake the airline made was allowing all the fare-paying passengers on board, and then trying to entice enough people off. It would have been far better to conduct the auction at the gate; physically preventing someone boarding is less harmful than dragging them kicking and screaming from their seat.


Not really, the flight crew for Louisville did not turn up until after the plane had loaded, it was not overbooked so the normal procedure was not followed.

As for getting him off, if they were legally entitled to get him off in that manner why are Chicago aviation security disowning their guy and saying they 'do not condone' and 'not in accordance with standard's procedures'

cg_341
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Re: United Airlines...

Post by cg_341 »

Because it'd be a PR disaster to say otherwise, as evidenced by the backlash United are getting.

Sadly in the age of social media, no-one waits for the full story, or all the facts, before going all out in disgust at an individual or company.

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CJS
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Re: United Airlines...

Post by CJS »

G-CVIX wrote:As a doctor, having a headline saying you are disruptive and belligerent is potentially damaging to his career and livelihood.


Well then he shouldn't have been disruptive and belligerent should he?

Just to reiterate, I feel there are two issues here:

1) He was told to leave a flight and he didn't. He is clearly in the wrong here (however misguided United's methods of coming to their decision were). This is separate from...

2) How he was removed from the aircraft. Maybe (or maybe not) this was illegal, but I ask again, what exactly would you have done as the captain of that flight?
With just the slightest bit of finesse, I might have made a little less mess.

cg_341
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Re: United Airlines...

Post by cg_341 »

Is it worth pointing out this part of the BBC article that a number of you may have missed?

"No one volunteered, so United decided to choose for us. They chose an Asian doctor and his wife."

...

"Ten minutes later, the doctor runs back into the plane with a bloody face, clings to a post in the back, chanting, "I need to go home."


So, after he was removed from the aircraft, he then returned and refused to leave again...

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Wrexham Mackem
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Re: United Airlines...

Post by Wrexham Mackem »

If you look at the rules in the cold light of day, yes, the passenger should have complied and left. But, on the spot, he wouldn't know that. He wouldn't know that he could be randomly picked on and bumped, once he was on the plane.

I travel a lot, and have been offered the incentive a few times. When travelling on business my answer is always the same, I have a meeting tomorrow and need to be there. That's what this guy would have been thinking and of course he'd have tried to stand his ground.

Wherever the law stands, the way he was treated was a disgrace. Morally, he was in the right. United should sort their overbooking out at the desk, if it gets beyond that, its their terrible planning. They should have found another way to transport their crew.
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Petedcollins
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Re: United Airlines...

Post by Petedcollins »

Isn't that kind of the point tho?

At some point, please get off the plane will turn into this when the passenger in this case an alleged dr (unless I have missed a verification that he is in fact a dr) refuses to do what is required then force will be used in the end.

He could have acted like an adult and said ok fine, but it'll cost you and left the aircraft instead of acting like a 5 year old.

Good on the CEO for saying, well ya know what the guy was a dick and refused to leave even when legally obliged to do so.

Everything else is just someone vying for money

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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: United Airlines...

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

It gets worse. Turns out the guy was 69 years old. Imagine that, a pensioner being treated like that in the UK?

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/11/travel/questions-united-trnd/index.html

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starbuck
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Re: United Airlines...

Post by starbuck »

Spare a thought for the poor United staff member that had to take the long walk down the aisle and sit in the blood stained seat so recently vacated through no fault of their own!

cg_341
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Re: United Airlines...

Post by cg_341 »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:It gets worse. Turns out the guy was 69 years old. Imagine that, a passenger who not only refused to deplane, but when removed ran back on to the aircraft and again refused to leave being treated like that in the UK?

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/11/travel/questions-united-trnd/index.html


Fixed that for you Dan.