Where has XH558 thread gone?

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Saleemrama
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Saleemrama »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:"Saleemrama":

Joined:Fri 11 Aug 2017, 2:40 pm


Most active topic:Where has XH558 thread gone?
(7 Posts / 87.50% of user’s posts)


"Neverfuel":

Last visited:Sun 13 Aug 2017, 3:42 pm


:whistle: :wave:


Case in point.
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Reds Rolling
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Reds Rolling »

disgruntled wrote:
speedbird2639 wrote:
Is disgruntled, Neverfuels new user name?


That was my immediate thought as well!


Pathetic.

No this is an individual that welcomes cross examination and difficult questions but expects the "feet to the fire" to be expected on both sides.

In true Dan style I will go over the points very slowly one last time.

1) The present focus of discussion was about the most recent accounts and the amount of money spent on aircrew.

2) A random post suggesting a figure PER FLIGHT was then put up. Whilst this may be true or not it had absolutely no relevance to the current topic being debated.

3) Dan jumped on this and then hypothesised about how much money that was. Now as I mentioned this had absolutely no relevance to the current ongoing discussion about the most recent accounts so Dan was either
a) lacking in the social skills needed to keep up with the discussion and make a valid point.
b) just so egotistical that he felt he needed to be connected to further "scandal"

Or

c) deliberately using the opportunity to use irrelevant "facts" to make wild hypotheses in an attempt to cloud the issue or mislead the readers. As I said - tacitly inferring that that amount was still being paid.

I have no idea who neverfuels is but I did end up feeling sorry for him and the way he was bullied. The immediate reaction for Dan and some others is to assume that anyone who pulls him up on a point is the guardian angel of VttS.

What I am however is a serviceman with 28 years experience who's primary role is public duties and engagement. I'll come on to comments in another post about how "embarrassing" the RAFAT are because someone dared to have a baby in the relevant thread. If I can be bothered

Well said. I'm all for level headed debate, but some here seem intent on finding scandal and wrongdoing, even if they have to imply it without facts.

Reds Rolling
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Reds Rolling »

Bluebird Mike wrote:No need to lock a thread because of one individual. 'disgruntled' and Dan were asked to take it private, yet 'disgruntled' is carrying the specific argument on- so it is the user who needs moderating, not the whole thread.

I think you'll find that as this isn't even the official XH558 discussion thread the whole thing has been off topic since page 1, so everything goes in my opinion. :biggrin:

Reds Rolling
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Reds Rolling »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:"Saleemrama":

Joined:Fri 11 Aug 2017, 2:40 pm


Most active topic:Where has XH558 thread gone?
(7 Posts / 87.50% of user’s posts)


"Neverfuel":

Last visited:Sun 13 Aug 2017, 3:42 pm


:whistle: :wave:

That's about as baseless as most of your rantings. Come back when you've actually got some credible evidence. :lmao:

Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

It would be a shame if this thread goes the same way as the last. It is legitimate for people who care about 558 to have a forum where they can ask/criticise/feedback their thoughts to VttTS and even discuss what they think with fellow Vulcan people. Naturally there are those who defend the work of the VttTS and occasionally those who answer certain questions and clarify matters. Sadly VttTS's Facebook page now deletes anything that isn't praise, so only this thread seems to be uncensored and widely read.

As I said some pages ago, there is very little more to discuss at this time, and its time wasting for the moderators to churn through the same points made over and over again. However Brevit Cable made a very important point to alert people to the publication of the annual accounts. These accounts represent an inconvenient truth which should not be brushed under the carpet. People who have given money to the project can read these accounts and make their own mind up whether their money was well spent, regardless of the opinions people have here.

The fact that these accounts may now be read by more people than they would, because they were publicised here, is important for the accountability of the Trust and their use of people's money.

My opinion is that these accounts make grim reading. The Trust appears to be continuing to spend whatever it earns in a hand to mouth basis, much the way it did during the flying years. It seems to have burned through a great deal of money, despite no flying, taxi runs, and very little engineering on the aircraft having taken place. It seems that it a job creation scheme, where the staff of the Trust are raising money successfully, but money is mainly spent on paying themselves wages, with nothing appearing to benefit the aircraft directly. Of course it is easy to avoid mistakes in hindsight, but there seems to have been some clanging errors made since 2015. I only hope the decisions made wont leave a permanent negative legacy for 558, e.g. supporters not wanting to contribute further money, 558 being stranded at an unsuitable site etc.

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pbeardmore
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by pbeardmore »

Good post.

The whole point around charities having a legal obligation to publish their accounts (as with limited companies) is that they provide a minimum level of tranparancy and for some level of self regualtion as doners and other stake holders can make an annual review of how the charity is doing. By defintion, this will include some negative feedback and it means that concerns can be based on facts (contained within the published accounts ) rather than specualtion or rumour.

However, unlike PLCs, that have to have shareholders meetings and allow for debates and votes etc, charities dont have this aspect to their governance. So unless the Commission are brought in, any charity can just run itself into the ground and then close down when the cash runs out.

Given what we can see from the accounts , I think there is a legitimate conversation to be had regarding what would happen to the airframe IF the charity is forced to close. When any charity is forced to close, there are nomrally creditors and the creditors have the right to put a charge on any assets that the charity still has on its books. Given that this charity has no otehr assets that the airframes (happy to be corrected) we are looking at a serious possible outcome.

To many, this may sound like scare mongerying but it makes sense to at least talk about all of the possible outcomes.
“The best computer is a man, and it’s the only one that can be mass-produced by unskilled labour.”

Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

MicrolightDriver wrote:Hopefully some positive news for XH558 on Friday, and at least some new information to save people poring over year-old data which describes a situation and org. structure greatly changed in the interim.


Hopefully yes. Although I'd be concerned that senior management who presided over the "progress" made between 2015-16 is still the same, and how honest and open this informational will be about the current situation. The proof of the pudding with be in the eating, if a shiny new self funding hanger can be built and Bruntingthorpe goes into terminal decline, Mr Pleming and friends will be heroes again.

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pbeardmore
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by pbeardmore »

Sorry, one other point is that the publlished annual accounts are never up to date. There is always a time lag between the content of the accounts and the current situation. So, if there is a trend downwards, that trend is worse than indicated in the accounts. To balance this, some form of turnaround may have been acheived and this is not refelcted in the published accounts.

I found this quote very interesting from a blog on the role of trustees in tough times:

This is not always instinctive in the sector, but we should not assume that safeguarding sustainability automatically implies the continued existence of an independent organisation. If we consider the central aspiration of any charity or social enterprise to be providing the best outcomes for the long term – and we should – then there are clearly instances where joining forces or passing on the management and delivery of services to an alternative provider can be the best way to achieve this objective.

So the moral is, that trustees in this case must act in the interests of the airframe rather than the interests of the charity.

There are plenty of cases studies out there where not one trustee has put their hand up and had the vision or bravery to say "guys, this clearly isn't working. We need to discuss other options". It's much easlier to keep your head down and carry on from one month to another until the cash simply runs dry. Obvioulsy, we all hope this is not the case here.
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rdchawk
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by rdchawk »

Saleemrama wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:"Saleemrama":

Joined:Fri 11 Aug 2017, 2:40 pm


Most active topic:Where has XH558 thread gone?
(7 Posts / 87.50% of user’s posts)


"Neverfuel":

Last visited:Sun 13 Aug 2017, 3:42 pm


:whistle: :wave:


Case in point.


Is this highlighting poor moderating of rule 10??

10) A ban is a ban! If you have your posting rights removed and/or your account deleted then this is a life-time ban, you are not permitted to return to the board in any capacity, including under a different username or alias. It is possible that over time an agreement can be made between the Moderators and a banned member but this is looked at on a case-by-case basis.
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speedbird2639
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by speedbird2639 »

@rdchawk


I presume it could only be considered poor moderating if they were fully aware that a previously banned user had returned under an assumed name.

I would guess that if you used another unrelated user name, a different email address and for example a public wifi to get a different ISP address it would be difficult to be 100% sure whether it was a genuine new registration or a ninja returnee :ninja:

Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

It's neither in this case as Neverfuel has resurfaced a few posts ago. Now whether he has multiple accounts to swell the numbers of VttST defenders, I dont know...

drumm78
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by drumm78 »

This is top of the league a boring thread.

reheat module
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by reheat module »

^^^^^^^
So true
Wake me up when we get back to flying the frame out of Doncaster to Brunty...
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disgruntled
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by disgruntled »

Xm657 wrote:It's neither in this case as Neverfuel has resurfaced a few posts ago. Now whether he has multiple accounts to swell the numbers of VttST defenders, I dont know...


Give it a rest. That's like saying "Now whether Dan has multiple accounts to swell the numbers for his cause, I don't know"

I wish I hadn't bothered

Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

Maybe he has, Disgruntled.

Interesting posts over on the Vulcan to the sky forum in the So That's It Then thread. One very negative from Sad Sam alluding to 558 appearing to be very light on fuel and foreasting the fuel bags will dry out and start leaking and that snow will see her on her tail - like the mishap that befell XL319 in the Sunderland musuem. If she is out of fuel it would explain why the engine runs have stopped I suppose.

However a very positive post from Eddie Forrester himself. He affirms that he has every confidence in the VttST and is sure not a penny of the fortune he had donated to VttST has been wasted. I expect Mr Forrester will keep a close eye on things so encouraging that he is happy with the trust. Particularly as it will likely need more of his money next year.

Is this thread so boring? This saga could be turned into a soap opera!

XR219
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by XR219 »

I guess if Sam has thought of this, it is at least possible that Taff Stone has too and is planning to take any required action.

XH558 is not out of fuel, at least not in the sense of the implication that more can't be taken on board if needed. VTTST agreed a number of public engine runs with the airport, which will be reviewed I hope in the light of their safety and success. The final such planned event is on 21st October. That doesn't mean that there won't be anti-det runs if required at other times.
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aviodromefriend
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by aviodromefriend »

XR219 wrote:XH558 is not out of fuel, at least not in the sense of the implication that more can't be taken on board if needed.
Which means another plunge of money needed. Can they afford that in the financial situation they seem to be in nowadays?
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vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

Some good comments over on the vtts forums,
This ones intresting.
http://www.vulcantothesky.org/smf/index ... 4#msg81444

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pbeardmore
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by pbeardmore »

Thats a pretty fair and balanced review of the accounts situation,

if the whole project does go pear shape, some will claim its all in hindsight but posts like these prove that there are genuine concerns now.

PS it seems strange to include the value of the airframe youi are there to look after as a fixed asset. After all, its not realy an asset as, if you sell it, you have nothing to look after. To me, fixed assets are offices, office equipment, vans etc. They provide flexibility re freeing up fixed assets (selling the office and lease etc) , the airframe offers no such flexibility. What its value does do is tilt the balance and give the impression that the accounts are actually better off than they really are.

Smoke and mirrors IMHO
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NAM Updater
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by NAM Updater »

pbeardmore wrote:....PS it seems strange to include the value of the airframe youi are there to look after as a fixed asset. After all, its not realy an asset as, if you sell it, you have nothing to look after........

I believe its inclusion as an asset is related to the SORP accounting requirements for charities.

A few years ago I had to arrange for independent valuations on NAM's entire aircraft collection for it to meet its SORP obligations - not an easy task and like you say one that gives a brighter appearance to the balance sheet!

Unless this is clearly understood by external parties/organisations this can be an issue when trying secure grants, reductions in rates etc.
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pbeardmore
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by pbeardmore »

I relaise that, it exists as an object , it has value and, therefore, it is a fixed asset but better effort is needed to sperate it from fixed assets that can freed up.

even just an asterix with a footnote. Its also relevant to potential creditors. You can put a charge on a van or seize it against a dept and the charity keeps going. You seize the Vulcan and there is no charity. Plus (and this has come up before) what is the real market value of the airframe? where/what are the fixed assets of £450,000?
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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

vulcan558 wrote:Some good comments over on the vtts forums,
This ones intresting.
http://www.vulcantothesky.org/smf/index ... 4#msg81444


Some excellent points raised and some important issues dissected.

The point about the purchase of the Canberra has never been satisfactorily explained by VTTS. There was no public mandate at all for this. People gave money to support XH558, not to buy another restoration project requiring hundreds of thousands of pounds to complete. Especially strange when a near-airworthy Canberra was on the market for peanuts and could easily have been airworthy and earning its keep in a much shorter time.

To the outsider, buying WK163 without consulting the public just looks like a way, they hoped, to keep the Bisto Express chugging along.

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

Are you confusing the 'fixed assets' with 'current assets' ?

The charity’s fixed assets comprise of Avro Vulcan XH558, its associated spare parts, ground equipment and tools, together with miscellaneous items

The 'fixed assets' total is £855k.

The £450k is for the 'current assets', which are listed as:
Stocks - £149k
Debtors - £125k
Cash at bank & in hand - £175.5k
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pbeardmore
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by pbeardmore »

Sorry, yes, fixed assets re £855,000 , is that a real market figure? how much are spares and tools worth ? seems an inflated figure IMHO but more expert than me on this thread.
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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

A mixture.
The bulk of the 'fixed assets' total is the £750k which XH558 is valued at.
That figure was decided upon by the Board of VTST, so probably bears no relationship whatsoever to what the actual market value would be if it was ever offered for sale ( and the HLF still have a charge of £427k over it )
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