Where has XH558 thread gone?

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Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

MicrolightDriver wrote:
vulcan558 wrote:Problem is that any airframe they try to get flying will be a million pound a year hangar....


Really? A million pounds a year?


I think he's referring to wages + hanger rent. The wages for 2016 were over £750K and on a hanger that will cost £2 million to build I wouldn't be surprised if the rent and rates push the total over a million per year. Therein lies the problem as far as I can see, its going to take a fortune to keep 558 under cover, and are there really enough people going to visit to pay for it all. Or is the other aviation activity going to be enough to pay for it all? But lets not start that discussion again! Time will tell.

Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

minnie the moocher wrote:but from the RHADSMasterplan 2030 which came out in 2010 (unless I am mistaken) wasn't this already identified as an issue to further development? (see pages 207 -214 I am not sure what happened after that survey but if newts were relocated then and they have come back into the area then doesn't that mean that this area is always going to be attractive to newts and they will always be an expensive problem with any development or conversely if the newts have now buggered off doesn't that now make the area more attractive (and expensive) for potential new development. The newts are not new the RAF also had them


I would have thought if the little critters had returned, that would make planning much harder as they clearly like that habitat and wont be moved. But Doncaster Sheffield airport must have expansion plans, so wouldn't just be a problem for VttST. Or maybe the newts are just near the sewage farm where the new hangar land is available. Maybe Mr Pleming will clarify tonight.

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

http://www.vulcantothesky.org/6monthreview.html
We are now six months on from the successful conclusion of the £200,000 Survival Campaign, required because of the effects of the loss of the Trust’s ability to host visitor tours and events at Doncaster Sheffield Airport (DSA).

As a business, the Trust needs to do whatever is required to remain trading and solvent, and to discharge its contractual responsibilities. As a charity, the Trust has a duty to provide public benefits, specifically the safeguarding of its heritage assets XH558 and WK163 but importantly also to explain and educate in any way possible what is interesting, valuable and relevant about these assets.

As a summary for new readers of these newsletters, the loss of the Trust’s ability to trade in DSA’s Hangar 3 at the end of January necessitated a radical restructure of the Trust, to reflect the significant reduction in revenue but also the temporary cessation of many activities. Undoubtedly the most significant loss was that of the ability for the public to visit the aircraft, due to the move of the aircraft to Hangar 1, to which public access was denied, and subsequently to external airside parking. In 2016, the Trust welcomed over 19,000 visitors to Hangar 3. In 2017, that has shrunk to the couple of hundred visitors participating in XH558’s ground engine run days, plus a few hundred more that have attended events and talks that the Trust has arranged around the country.

The Trust went from 22 full-time employees plus 2 part-time employees (five of whom the Trust inherited when it took over the lease of Hangar 3 in January 2016), supporting a £2.4million annual turnover, to 8 full-time employees plus 1 part-timer (three of whom still service a profitable facilities management contract for Hangar 3) for a projected annual revenue of £800,000. As ever, a few contracted consultants continue to contribute in specialist areas such as fund-raising. The Survival Appeal enabled the Trust to absorb the shock of this huge change.

DSA’s offer of a lease on a plot of land on the airport’s boundary on which a purpose-built Heritage Hangar could be constructed provided a feasible route forward to the eventual resumption of the Trust’s charitable activities, and the way by which the Trust could discharge its responsibilities to the Heritage Lottery Fund for the preservation of XH558 in full working order, and the delivery of educational activities for the rest of the century.

Over the spring and summer months, under Andrew Edmondson’s leadership, considerable work has been done pro bono by a team of local design, engineering and construction companies, firstly to create a workable but cost-effective design for the new 2500m2 Heritage Hangar tailor-made for public visits and events alongside aircraft engineering, but also to carry out the tests and inspections required for a successful application for planning permission to Doncaster Metropolitan Borough Council. Last week, that application was submitted, together with the required and not insubstantial fee of over £15,000. We expect to receive a decision in December.

The work done on the design of the new hangar also generated an estimate for the total cost of construction and fit-out – some £2.8million, including start-up working capital. Unlike many other charities, the Trust does not have an endowment or capital reserves, so the plan is to find an investor or consortium to fund the build, with the added attraction of contributing to the development of the Airport.

In parallel with the planning activity, a Business Plan for the Heritage Hangar has been created, based on the successful business model in Hangar 3 of visitor tours, events, merchandising and catering. This Business Plan has been to subject of extensive review and will continue to be updated, as we need it to be as robust as possible. The Business Plan is aimed at demonstrating that an investor funding the construction of the new Heritage Hangar will be assured of an acceptable return on an investment.

We are already talking to prospective investors, and expect to gain valuable feedback on optimising the attractiveness of our proposition over coming weeks. As with any charity embarking on a new direction, we are drawing on advice from various quarters, especially from those who have experience of similar projects. It’s difficult to be definite on timescales, but we very much hope to open for business in the new Heritage Hangar in 2018. If there is anyone reading this who believes they have the relevant experience to help, please contact me – rpleming@vulcantothesky.org

In addition to all this work aimed at securing the future for the Trust, the team’s fundraising, merchandising, events and outreach activities have continued with a stream of imaginative and exciting ideas. These have been and will continue to be vital to the continued existence of the Trust since its restructuring; please watch out for further initiatives in coming weeks and months.

Support of the Trust’s activities by growing numbers of volunteers all around the country is becoming very important, especially to the Trust’s abilities to deliver public benefits in terms of talks and events away from Doncaster Sheffield Airport itself. During the summer, our volunteers enabled the Trust to be represented at several of the major airshows, where we were heartened by the expressions of interest and good wishes from the many supporters who visited the stand. The Trust now has over 50 active volunteers, and we expect this to grow – do let us know if you would like to join the team. (See here for an appeal for specific volunteer roles.)

We understand that there are a number of questions that have arisen over recent weeks to which Dr Stephen Liddle, one of our Trustees, has kindly responded in a “Question and Answer” page, which follows on below.

I hope we will have further significant news on progress to bring you in the coming few months, and will broadcast this to you all in our regular e-newsletters and on social media, however I also plan to provide a further comprehensive update to supporters in six months’ time.
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smiler
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

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sooty655
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by sooty655 »

Unless my memory has completely gone (always a possibility :sad: ), early this year they said they had someone to pay for the new hangar and lease it to them. Now they say they are trying to find someone. Has the previous benefactor pulled out, or was he/she a figment of someone's imagination?

IgnatiusJReilly
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by IgnatiusJReilly »

sooty655 wrote:Unless my memory has completely gone (always a possibility :sad: ), early this year they said they had someone to pay for the new hangar and lease it to them. Now they say they are trying to find someone. Has the previous benefactor pulled out, or was he/she a figment of someone's imagination?


That was my understanding...
From the previous Q&A;
Q – How will you pay for the new hangar?
A – The developers are paying for the development on land already identified by the airport. Vulcan to the Sky Trust will be leasing it from the developers so we will not need to invest any supporters’ money in the building or the infrastructure.


I love the absolute reassurance regarding any prospective developer bumping VTTS out in favour of someone paying the commercial rate.. ...a developer would not be permitted to change its use unless agreed by the airport.
What would be the chances???
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Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

Wow, my bottom jaw almost hit the floor, so basically there is no developer lined up, no hangar that will be ready in a few months "The construction of the new hangar will take about one year in total". They are actually looking for someone who can invest 2.8 million to build them a hangar, and if you know anyone please email rpleming@vulcantothesky.org. This feels like the end.

IgnatiusJReilly
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by IgnatiusJReilly »

£2.8m for a hangar.... I haven't looked, but isn't that roughly the money they've burned through since the end of flight?

:dizzy:
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ExVulcanGC
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by ExVulcanGC »

From 2015, just for comparison:

http://www.kentonline.co.uk/romney-marsh/news/new-hangar---thatll-cost-33941/

A £700,000 new hangar is being planned at Lydd airport to keep up with a rise in demand for business and flights.
Building work is expected to start next month and set to take around 19 weeks to complete.
The 2,100 sqm hangar will be constructed by Civils Contracting Ltd, based at East Peckham, near Tonbridge.


So on those prices £2.8 million would get you a hangar 8,400 sqm, but Hangar 3 is:

Aero Flight Services
Located in hanger 3 at Robin Hood Airport Doncaster
Managing 22,500 sq feet of highly sought after heated hanger space, which appears to be 2090 sqm.

Also begs the question if that patch of land is big enough. Forgot to add that inflation obviously sucks in the building trade, I have also noted that the money is also for: start-up working capital.

Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

The area of land is plenty big enough, use a tool like https://www.mapdevelopers.com/area_finder.php and draw round the area to check yourself.

The full grassy area next to the sewage works at Doncaster Sheffied is 7789 square meters, the area already with tarmac is 2064 square meters. A Vulcan (using XM655) is roughly 468 square meters, but you'd need a triangular building. The smallest possible hangar that would fit a Vulcan inside, not leaving any room for the Canberra or other exhibits would I think be about 1,400 square meters. So I suppose £700K would get you one big enough based on these prices, but remember a Vulcan it pretty tall too so the roof needs to be pretty high which I'm sure adds to the cost.

I reckon £2.8 million sounds about right for the facility they have in mind (room for the Canberra, Swift, spares, workshops and office space). I just think they are naïve to think enough people are going to keep visiting for endless coffee mornings and visits to make the sort of revenue to pay for this. I suppose it all depends whether they can convince an investor its possible, and then go on to pay the rent year after year. Then after 10 years apparently move onto the £20 million Etna building. It's ambitious, but so was getting a Vulcan in the air I suppose. Time will tell.
Last edited by Xm657 on Fri 22 Sep 2017, 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

MicrolightDriver wrote:
vulcan558 wrote:Problem is that any airframe they try to get flying will be a million pound a year hangar....


Really? A million pounds a year?

The wage bill and hangar rent, if the last accounts put the wage bill at 750k then add in the hangar rent and running costs.

vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

Just like the investor and Business was going to pay for the Vulcan to flight,
Was it down to the people in the end.

2.8 million, a lot of that cost will be wages and consulting again, plus lavish waste on office furniture and computors again.
To be honest theh havd just bought themselves another 12 months grace.

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captainfurious
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by captainfurious »

I'm sorry but whilst I'm not in the know like some these emails just get more farcical. I don't believe a word that is said and the stretching of truth and promises of dreams is staggering. I'd go as far as saying the attitude is deluded and use of money insulting to all who donated. I appreciate its likely a very different story but the way Sally B or the People's Mosquito conduct themselves puts this outfit to shame. I can accept desperation but at the same time be honest and genuine. I wanted a bright outcome to all of this but my trust and love for this project died long ago. I wouldn't say my memory of XH558 is tainted but never has a dead horse been flogged as much as this.

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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

IgnatiusJReilly wrote:£2.8m for a hangar.... I haven't looked, but isn't that roughly the money they've burned through since the end of flight?

:dizzy:


Is that really what they've spent since October, 2015? How on earth do you spend that much money in 23 months on an aeroplane that's trundled around an airfield a handful of times?

minnie the moocher
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by minnie the moocher »

captainfurious wrote:I'm sorry but whilst I'm not in the know like some these emails just get more farcical. I don't believe a word that is said and the stretching of truth and promises of dreams is staggering. I'd go as far as saying the attitude is deluded and use of money insulting to all who donated. I appreciate its likely a very different story but the way Sally B or the People's Mosquito conduct themselves puts this outfit to shame. I can accept desperation but at the same time be honest and genuine. I wanted a bright outcome to all of this but my trust and love for this project died long ago. I wouldn't say my memory of XH558 is tainted but never has a dead horse been flogged as much as this.


couldn't have put it better

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MicrolightDriver
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

So why wouldn't a developer want to get involved in this site / facility?

If it works out for VTTS, the owner / developer has a long-term tenant, running a successful aviation / educational / leisure events operation. At the end of 10 years, the owner makes a decision as to 'what's next?' for their asset. Good safe investment.

If it doesn't work out for VTTS, the developer has a hangar on a successful regional airport and they make a decision as to 'what's next?' for their asset. Good safe investment.

Saleemrama
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Saleemrama »

IgnatiusJReilly wrote:
sooty655 wrote:Unless my memory has completely gone (always a possibility :sad: ), early this year they said they had someone to pay for the new hangar and lease it to them. Now they say they are trying to find someone. Has the previous benefactor pulled out, or was he/she a figment of someone's imagination?


That was my understanding...
From the previous Q&A;
Q – How will you pay for the new hangar?
A – The developers are paying for the development on land already identified by the airport. Vulcan to the Sky Trust will be leasing it from the developers so we will not need to invest any supporters’ money in the building or the infrastructure.


I love the absolute reassurance regarding any prospective developer bumping VTTS out in favour of someone paying the commercial rate.. ...a developer would not be permitted to change its use unless agreed by the airport.
What would be the chances???


I saw that and thought what stops them being kicked out again, but having read it again it says

If a developer can build a hangar at the airport, why would they not lease it commercially rather than to the Trust?
The site of the new hangar has been purchased by the airport specifically for the use of the Trust’s new Heritage Hangar, with Heads of Terms that makes this clear, hence a developer would not be permitted to change its use unless agreed by the airport.


And this:

The Trust is very actively pursuing the funding required to complete the project. The model proposed would see the hangar constructed and then leased to us for a period of at least ten years. There is a clear business case for this proposal, in that the developer would have a valuable commercial building on the site of a growing airport at the end. By that time, the Trust would expect to move to the final phase of the Etna project, in a new building that will be planned at the airport


So I guess they have at least covered that one, at least for 10 years.
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Saleemrama
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Saleemrama »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
IgnatiusJReilly wrote:£2.8m for a hangar.... I haven't looked, but isn't that roughly the money they've burned through since the end of flight?

:dizzy:


Is that really what they've spent since October, 2015? How on earth do you spend that much money in 23 months on an aeroplane that's trundled around an airfield a handful of times?


How did they bring in so much money that they could actually cover that and still be in profit in the first year?
Look on the bright side - because you don't need a torch to do it!

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IgnatiusJReilly
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by IgnatiusJReilly »

Saleemrama wrote:I saw that and thought what stops them being kicked out again, but having read it again it says
If a developer can build a hangar at the airport, why would they not lease it commercially rather than to the Trust?
The site of the new hangar has been purchased by the airport specifically for the use of the Trust’s new Heritage Hangar, with Heads of Terms that makes this clear, hence a developer would not be permitted to change its use unless agreed by the airport.

And this:
The Trust is very actively pursuing the funding required to complete the project. The model proposed would see the hangar constructed and then leased to us for a period of at least ten years. There is a clear business case for this proposal, in that the developer would have a valuable commercial building on the site of a growing airport at the end. By that time, the Trust would expect to move to the final phase of the Etna project, in a new building that will be planned at the airport

So I guess they have at least covered that one, at least for 10 years.


So they're asking a developer to sink nearly 3million quid into developing a site, which is only leasehold, with massive strings attached plus the risk associated with a tenant who may or may not be able to pay the rent and your asset can only be resold with the express permission of the landlord.
Oh, and your tenant has made it very clear that they don't really see themselves staying for the long term.
And the driving force behind your tenant is a man likely to retire in the not too distant future...

I imagine the developers will be queueing up... :hypno:
Eccentric, idealistic, and creative, sometimes to the point of delusion..

Neverfuel
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Neverfuel »

Xm657 wrote:
MicrolightDriver wrote:
vulcan558 wrote:Problem is that any airframe they try to get flying will be a million pound a year hangar....


Really? A million pounds a year?


I think he's referring to wages + hangar rent. The wages for 2016 were over £750K and on a hangar that will cost £2 million to build I wouldn't be surprised if the rent and rates push the total over a million per year. Therein lies the problem as far as I can see, its going to take a fortune to keep 558 under cover, and are there really enough people going to visit to pay for it all. Or is the other aviation activity going to be enough to pay for it all? But lets not start that discussion again! Time will tell.


I think the cost model is much different going forward, based on Dr P's latest newsletter report and The Q&As. The wage bill, for instance, is going to be an awful lot lower due to the reduction in staff from 22 to 8 (three of whom are subcontracted to the new occupants of Hangar 3). I would expect that could be covered by resuming business in the new hangar.

Neverfuel
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Neverfuel »

Saleemrama wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:
IgnatiusJReilly wrote:£2.8m for a hangar.... I haven't looked, but isn't that roughly the money they've burned through since the end of flight?

:dizzy:


Is that really what they've spent since October, 2015? How on earth do you spend that much money in 23 months on an aeroplane that's trundled around an airfield a handful of times?


How did they bring in so much money that they could actually cover that and still be in profit in the first year?


2015 here: http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Ac ... 31_E_C.PDF

2016 here: http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Ac ... 31_E_C.PDF

They should explain it.

IgnatiusJReilly
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by IgnatiusJReilly »



You're missing the (admittedly subtle) point....
For all the money that's come in, they have no material progress to show for the near £7m of income. Asides from some plans that were drawn up for free, a Canberra and a planning application fee.
That is astounding.
Eccentric, idealistic, and creative, sometimes to the point of delusion..

vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

IgnatiusJReilly wrote:


You're missing the (admittedly subtle) point....
For all the money that's come in, they have no material progress to show for the near £7m of income. Asides from some plans that were drawn up for free, a Canberra and a planning application fee.
That is astounding.

Shocking isn't it,

Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

MicrolightDriver wrote:So why wouldn't a developer want to get involved in this site / facility?

If it works out for VTTS, the owner / developer has a long-term tenant, running a successful aviation / educational / leisure events operation. At the end of 10 years, the owner makes a decision as to 'what's next?' for their asset. Good safe investment.

If it doesn't work out for VTTS, the developer has a hangar on a successful regional airport and they make a decision as to 'what's next?' for their asset. Good safe investment.


Well I'm sure this will be how VttST will be selling it to potential developers. However putting myself in the developers shoes I would be asking:-

I'm being asked to build a custom visitor center rather than general industrial hangarage - how attractive would this hangar be to other tenants?

I'm being asked to build a hangar for a tenant who cannot be evicted unless they go bust - would rent increases be fixed for the full term of the lease. Why wouldn't I just build my own hangar and let the highest bidder use it.

Is the VttST the only group likely to obtain planning permission at Doncaster Airport? Clearly not as it's a development zone. Safer bet to sink my 2.8 million into my own development and not be tied to the VttST.

Finally, what is the demand for hangarage at Doncaster? If I felt there was high demand then I'd be satisfied that if/when the VttST goes bust I can simply get a new tenant. But if demand is high, again, why wouldnt I just build by own hangar and lease it to the highest bidder.

VttST seem to be assuming they are the only show in town and have exclusive rights to have a new hangar built at Doncaster (next to the sewage works). I think it will be a hard sell. Remember we were told originally that the new hangar would be finished this year and a developer was standing by, so it does seem that a deal has already fallen through.

If only they were not obsessed with this Etna scheme. They don't rule out a ferry flight in the Q&A, but the longer she sits outside the even more unlikely this becomes.

vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

To have a development company invest that much and then be told you will get,
What the vtts call a peppercorn rent for the next 10years.
Then I think there will be a Stampede for it, NOT.

Think this is just a smoke screen for the next 12months.
My view it will be a begging campaign too the people again within the next 12 months.

They have wasted millions since last flight,
They say they have been raising so much over the last few years but have noting to show for it.

If its 12 months away then with there past earnings figures they should have the money to build the hangar outright.

But it will be 12 months of wages and ex, plus I see the Consultants are mentioned again.

Do any other static aircraft need a consultancy, I own a few very old classic and vintage cars with my Father
We do not use consultants, we restore them show them and drive them.

Who are these Consultants and there expert back ground in keeping old cold war bombers.
Think the lads down at Bruntingthorpes could offer them some free advice if the vtts are not capable or have the expertise or knowledge to look after 558.

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