Where has XH558 thread gone?

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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

Wasn't it established that the valuation was set to meet HLF criteria, rather than the actual physical value of a Vulcan-shaped former aeroplane? Something like the value is what VTTS would owe HLF if/when the whole sorry escapade goes belly-up. Hence in 2085, when the HLF obligation runs out, the thing would quite rightly have a value of zero, as they would owe zero...

Skymonster
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Skymonster »

Reportedly the sticky back plastic campaigns raised donations totalling £450,000 (15,000 people at £30 each). That was over two rounds, one which fell within FY17 and the other within FY18. Based on an assumption both raised similar amounts (circa £225,000) then the overall / 'normal' donation total for FY2017 looks very poor - without the sticky back plastic donations the Trust would seemingly have made a big loss in the year just reported. The good news for the Trust is there will presumably be an equivalent £225,000-ish from the second round of sticky back plastic included in the donations total in the FY2018 accounts. However FY2018 finishes in just two months time and the hangar (and its purported revenue streams) won't be available until deep into FY2019. It seems apparent that without another sticky back plastic initiative (or something equally as lucrative) the Trust will fall well short of covering its costs in FY20019 - and in the next fiscal it might also have to find money to set up in the hangar unless of course the investor is coughing for that too. Perhaps the staff in Delta Court are already wondering how many more people want their name - that they can't see - stuck on the bottom of a grounded Vulcan?

Skymonster
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Skymonster »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Wasn't it established that the valuation was set to meet HLF criteria, rather than the actual physical value of a Vulcan-shaped former aeroplane? Something like the value is what VTTS would owe HLF if/when the whole sorry escapade goes belly-up. Hence in 2085, when the HLF obligation runs out, the thing would quite rightly have a value of zero, as they would owe zero...


The HLF has a charge over XH558 that is also reducing year on year through to 2085. I presume that means it can't be sold, and effectively its asset value can't be used to raise more money. On that basis - while the Trust continues to operate - that is why I think that the current value of the Vulcan is largely a meaningless figure.

Heritage Lottery Fund, in the form of its legal entity the National Memorial Heritage Fund (NHMF), maintains a charge over the Avro Vulcan XH558 on a reducing amount based on the HLF grant and the flying life of the aircraft, which is covered by the aircraft's Hull insurance. The contract between the VTST and the NHMF is for 80 years from 2005, requiring the Trust to deliver its public benefits based on the aircraft over this time.

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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

Skymonster wrote:
The HLF has a charge over XH558 that is also reducing year on year through to 2085. I presume that means it can't be sold, and effectively its asset value can't be used to raise more money. On that basis - while the Trust continues to operate - that is why I think that the current value of the Vulcan is largely a meaningless figure.


So, perhaps another reason why Bob-A-Job's cabal refuse to relinquish control - if they do, they become liable for the HLF's £750,000...

GertrudetheMerciless
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by GertrudetheMerciless »

ericbee123 wrote:They are missing an obvious trick.

Fold the company and reform as Vulcan To Bruntingthorpe.

There is obviously momentum for donating the £ millions (it seemingly will take) to move her in a state where she can still taxi after the journey.

Should keep the money flooding in until she is moved in 2021(ish).


You know, it might even stimulate the building of a suitable hangar facility at a site with close physical links to various historical and current hubs of our aerospace industry! :smile: :lol:

Skymonster
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Skymonster »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:So, perhaps another reason why Bob-A-Job's cabal refuse to relinquish control - if they do, they become liable for the HLF's £750,000...

I have no idea what the terms of the agreement between the HLF and the Trust are - and what happens if the Trust is wound up. According to the HLF website there was Freedom of Information request made in February 2017 that asked for the grant contract, and it was provided. So presumably someone does know...
Last edited by Skymonster on Fri 10 Aug 2018, 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

IgnatiusJReilly wrote:
The 30k figure for computers - could that possibly include web hosting fees? I also wonder if fees paid to IT contractors / website designers etc. could that be included under 'computers'?


The Web site and hosting would account for very little. The website is actually a very dated design that hadn't been updated for years. Content is added by Vtts themselves, I very much doubt they paying more than a few hundred pounds a year for their hosting.

My guess at where this 30K went is on Facebook targeted advertising and the like and on consultancy fees to people who have the skills to launch and run social media campaigns.

I also noticed that their emails no longer come from the company that they used to use. I can't remember the name now but they were a sponsor so will have got the emailing system and design work done for nothing in the past. I imagine they are now paying for this service which will be quite expensive unless they have a volunteer html email designer among their ranks.

Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

Skymonster wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:
Skymonster wrote:So, perhaps another reason why Bob-A-Job's cabal refuse to relinquish control - if they do, they become liable for the HLF's £750,000...


I have no idea what the terms of the agreement between the HLF and the Trust are - and what happens if the Trust is wound up. According to the HLF website there was Freedom of Information request made in February 2017 that asked for the grant contract, and it was provided. So presumably someone does know...


This has been asked somewhere before ill attempt to remember! I believe the contract allows for the charge to the HLF to be transferable to another charity or organisation should the VttST be wound up. My understanding is there is little to stop VttST or any future owner simply breaking the contract other than the reputational damage that would do to any future application someone might make for funding to restore an aircraft.

bernarde
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by bernarde »

Xm657 wrote:
IgnatiusJReilly wrote:
The 30k figure for computers - could that possibly include web hosting fees? I also wonder if fees paid to IT contractors / website designers etc. could that be included under 'computers'?


The Web site and hosting would account for very little. The website is actually a very dated design that hadn't been updated for years. Content is added by Vtts themselves, I very much doubt they paying more than a few hundred pounds a year for their hosting.

My guess at where this 30K went is on Facebook targeted advertising and the like and on consultancy fees to people who have the skills to launch and run social media campaigns.

I also noticed that their emails no longer come from the company that they used to use. I can't remember the name now but they were a sponsor so will have got the emailing system and design work done for nothing in the past. I imagine they are now paying for this service which will be quite expensive unless they have a volunteer html email designer among their ranks.


They use a external company to run their social media outlets and newsletters, Richard someone.. - the main website is/was updated by Ian Homer. Their website is super basic with very little demand now as their as no peak times (such as flights, published taxi runs and so on) and could quite easily be honested for less then £20 a year with various companies who offer unlimited bandwidth.

Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

So it remains a mystery how they burned through 30K in IT costs if that doesn't include Social Media management. 30K isn't far short of the entire turnover for the year for VRT at Southend - even when they had a hangar and managed to do a taxi run (albeit not a public one yet). Or think of it another way: nearly a third of the amount that was donated to the Save the Vulcan campaign at the end of 2016. Doesn't seen right or proper to me.

wezgulf3
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by wezgulf3 »

Xm657 wrote:So it remains a mystery how they burned through 30K in IT costs if that doesn't include Social Media management. 30K isn't far short of the entire turnover for the year for VRT at Southend - even when they had a hangar and managed to do a taxi run (albeit not a public one yet). Or think of it another way: nearly a third of the amount that was donated to the Save the Vulcan campaign at the end of 2016. Doesn't seen right or proper to me.



Does anything they do seem right and proper?? Someone should be asking how a charity with limited assets can have a £30,000 IT Bill......

Wes...

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by IgnatiusJReilly »

wezgulf3 wrote: Someone should be asking how a charity with limited assets can have a £30,000 IT Bill......


Does anyone know if Dr Bob has a grandchild who's 'good with the interweb' :ghost:
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pbeardmore
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by pbeardmore »

Re the accounts, I think the pattern has continued from last year. Figures that seem questionalble, illogical or make little sense but nothing that you can "hang your hat on" re justifying a formal complaint.
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vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

You have the aircraft outside, no rent to pay or overheads for the aircraft.
It runs its engines once a month at no cost with it being done by volunteers.
And the £100 fee for 60 pays the fuel and cost and probaly a small profit.

Then by sticking names on said aircraft it raises just short of half a million pounds.

With donations and spares sales plus merchandise they have a income of over 1 million pound.
End of the year they have nothing,

So out of 1 million £ a year the vulcan gets nothing. Must be close to 4 million£ blown since it landed for the last time.

Its pretty disgusting really.and the future looks like putting it in debt for the next 10 years.

When the experts from the accounts say its un sustainable then you can not argue with said experts.

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MicrolightDriver
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

vulcan558 wrote:...When the experts from the accounts say its un sustainable then you can not argue with said experts.


But they don't. They say the group is reliant on future support from its donors and investors. It is a charity.

It's no secret that they've been badly limited by the hangar situation and that the new hangar ( more precisely the commercial activity it enables ) is very important for the future. I wish them every success.

On that note, just a few places left for the EGRs in September I see, and hopefully the summer Vulcan Raffle 2018 will help raise significant funds to keep XH558 safe. Certainly some great prizes to be won!

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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

The more you stop to think, the more incomprehensible that £30,000 IT/computers figure seems.

Perhaps XR219 might break the habit of a lifetime and outline exactly what required a company with 13 employees, and no obvious need for a large IT outlay, to spend £30,000 of supporters donations on this? The website is cheap as chips, and social media should be one bloke with an iPhone.

It was mentioned earlier in the thread that a complaint to the Charities Commission lacked concrete grounds - on the face of it, a charity which lives ostensibly hand-to-mouth, relying on benefactors spunking £30,000 on computing/IT with no obvious need would certainly set alarm bells ringing.

Of course there'll be no answer. There never is.

Unaccountable.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by IgnatiusJReilly »

MicrolightDriver wrote:They say the group is reliant on future support from its donors and investors. It is a charity.
It's no secret that they've been badly limited by the hangar situation


Whatever it is you're smoking, carry on because when you come down off of that cloud, you're in for quite a bump.
Vulcan558 has it exactly... "So out of 1 million £ a year the vulcan gets nothing."


For the money Bob has spunked away, there should be a trust owned & paid for hangar and a squadron of Cold War jets being operated.
Let's also remind ourselves that the donated funding for the new hangar still hasn't been confirmed, let alone any idea as to what the shortfall is going to be. And where that's coming from.
We have suspected for some time that every penny was going on salaries and now we know for sure. This is an absolute disgrace, no two ways about it.
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MicrolightDriver
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

IgnatiusJReilly wrote:
MicrolightDriver wrote:They say the group is reliant on future support from its donors and investors. It is a charity.
It's no secret that they've been badly limited by the hangar situation


Whatever it is you're smoking, carry on because when you come down off of that cloud, you're in for quite a bump.
Vulcan558 has it exactly... "So out of 1 million £ a year the vulcan gets nothing."


For the money Bob has spunked away, there should be a trust owned & paid for hangar and a squadron of Cold War jets being operated.
Let's also remind ourselves that the donated funding for the new hangar still hasn't been confirmed, let alone any idea as to what the shortfall is going to be. And where that's coming from.
We have suspected for some time that every penny was going on salaries and now we know for sure. This is an absolute disgrace, no two ways about it.


What has any of that got to do with vulcan558's statement?:-

When the experts from the accounts say its un sustainable then you can not argue with said experts.


That's not what the 'experts' were saying, and that's what I pointed out.

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CJS
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by CJS »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:The more you stop to think, the more incomprehensible that £30,000 IT/computers figure seems.

Perhaps XR219 might break the habit of a lifetime and outline exactly what required a company with 13 employees, and no obvious need for a large IT outlay, to spend £30,000 of supporters donations on this? The website is cheap as chips, and social media should be one bloke with an iPhone.

It was mentioned earlier in the thread that a complaint to the Charities Commission lacked concrete grounds - on the face of it, a charity which lives ostensibly hand-to-mouth, relying on benefactors spunking £30,000 on computing/IT with no obvious need would certainly set alarm bells ringing.

Of course there'll be no answer. There never is.

Unaccountable.


They're not though, are they? I'm not defending them in any way, but as I've said before, if someone thinks that something illegal had taken place, then report them to the charities commission.

If not, I fail to see what else can be achieved, other than folk on here moaning about them.

It may not be how we'd have gone about things, but I really do think that, it there had been anything against the rules going on, they wouldn't have got, or continue to get, away with it.

They're not, as far as I can tell, unaccountable. Surely that's just incorrect :dunno:
With just the slightest bit of finesse, I might have made a little less mess.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by IgnatiusJReilly »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:The more you stop to think, the more incomprehensible that £30,000 IT/computers figure seems.


Anyone who has been following this for any period of time will not be surprised by anything, any more.
What are the odds that there is a consultancy or two, maybe some management fees, maybe for a firm possibly owned by someone who might also be a trustee or a board member, within this 30k IT bill?
If there was, how would we ever know?
I'm sure the accounts as presented, are legal and above board, but I have no confidence that they provide enough clarity for anyone to really understand what's going on here.
This IT line item being a case in point.
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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

I'm sure they have a reason for spunking £30,000 of donations on computers in the last tax year. Whether or not it stands up to scrutiny is quite another thing.

If it was for IT "consultancy", then there really would be grounds for anger - regardless of who the consultant was.

Come on XR219, astound us by having the manners to reply.

Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

MicrolightDriver wrote:... and hopefully the summer Vulcan Raffle 2018 will help raise significant funds to keep XH558 safe. Certainly some great prizes to be won!


There are indeed some great prizes, and hats off to the VttST for getting these prizes together. BUT: how can anyone think the funds raised will keep XH558 safe after reading the last two years of account? The £450K from the names under the wing has been absorbed by wages and consultancy costs. It would have made no difference to 558 if that money had been raised or not. It's the airport's free parking and the volunteers' efforts keeping her safe. VttST are raising these vast funds to keep themselves safe. None of this raffle money will go to part pay for the hangar, just as none of the previous donations have. This really is coming across the worst form of "charity"* where the good cause is just vehicle of convenience for an awful lot of self serving passengers.

If there is an endless supply of people to donate I suppose none of this really matters as it's no different to many other "charities". But I'm sure I can't be the only one that is worried the image of 558 and of aircraft restoration, is tarnished with each million that is wasted.

* e.g. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... endas.html

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:I'm sure they have a reason for spunking £30,000 of donations on computers in the last tax year. Whether or not it stands up to scrutiny is quite another thing.

If it was for IT "consultancy", then there really would be grounds for anger - regardless of who the consultant was.

Come on XR219, astound us by having the manners to reply.

The close to £28.000 for airshows is a bit much.
They only do so many events now with the selling of merchandise, and im sure its all volunteer run.
So that would be nice to see broken down on costs.

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MicrolightDriver
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

Xm657 wrote:
MicrolightDriver wrote:... and hopefully the summer Vulcan Raffle 2018 will help raise significant funds to keep XH558 safe. Certainly some great prizes to be won!


There are indeed some great prizes, and hats off to the VttST for getting these prizes together. BUT: how can anyone think the funds raised will keep XH558 safe after reading the last two years of account? The £450K from the names under the wing has been absorbed by wages and consultancy costs. It would have made no difference to 558 if that money had been raised or not....


...because consultancy is never worthwhile? and expenditure in that form ( even if for example it's concerned with designing buildings or preparing for complex planning applications ) could never be to the benefit of their long term plans to keep XH558 safe?

VTTS stand accused of many mistakes, there's plenty people keen to point that out and I'm sure some of it's valid, but there could equally be some very worthwhile expenditure in these areas.

Skymonster
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Skymonster »

MicrolightDriver wrote:But they don't. They say the group is reliant on future support from its donors and investors.

The accounts actually say:
The Trustees are aware of certain material uncertainties which may cast doubt on the group's ability to continue as a going concern...

A withdrawal of support either by the proposed investor or DSA would cast a significant doubt over the chartity's going concern status...

However, donations are intrinsically uncertain and the ongoing support of the charity's current donors will be fundamental until the new trading model has been established.


Unfortunately the accounts show donations are declining significantly. Raffle income - which is also down - and a few engine runs won't cut it - certainly not in FY2019 which starts in November when the hangar will be no where near completed, even if it is started. The Trust needs another big money maker like the sticky back plastic scheme just to tide it over. And even then, if the investor / developer of the hangar or DSA get cold feet it looks very likely to be game over. At the moment the Trust 's future hinges primarily on hopes and maybes...

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