Where has XH558 thread gone?

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Full Flaps
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Full Flaps »

What was the name of that guy who said he would run naked around his RAF base with a rose between his bum if ever XH558 flew?
Always plan for the unexpected.

Did the deed ever happen???

106500
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by 106500 »

Full Flaps wrote:What was the name of that guy who said he would run naked around his RAF base with a rose between his bum if ever XH558 flew?
Always plan for the unexpected.

Did the deed ever happen???


Not sure but I reckon that if VTTS delivers on the hanger (and I have a sneaking feeling they will) then there's going to be an awful lot of humble pie consumption by the prophets of doom merchants on this forum! Perhaps there should be a thread on the 'forfeits' the naysayers would agree to perform? - maybe this could include a predetermined donation to a resurrected Canberra return to the sky fund! :rock:

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by IgnatiusJReilly »

106500 wrote:Not sure but I reckon that if VTTS delivers on the hangar (and I have a sneaking feeling they will) then there's going to be an awful lot of humble pie consumption by the prophets of doom merchants on this forum! Perhaps there should be a thread on the 'forfeits' the naysayers would agree to perform? - maybe this could include a predetermined donation to a resurrected Canberra return to the sky fund! :rock:


Nice try Dr Bob!
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Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

If 558 gets a purpose built hangar and enough people visit to pay back the rent for the next 80 years I'd be very happy to run naked anywhere Mr Pleming requests! Ive long since given up hope of seeing 558 taxi again, but if we can still have a working Vulcan capable of running her engines for future generations to hear, then fantastic, Doncaster is a price worth paying for that.

It just seems so inlikely that the hangar plan is realistic though. Its frustrating that any other options are/were ignored (if there are/were other options) , and the public are milked for contributions with tatt and vulcan parts to keep the charade going. 558 seems to have some good will left but the money it raises is just going down the toilet rather than securing the future and has been since the last flight.

And lets not forget, the amount of money contributed by the public since 2015 to the VttST would have bought a hangar by now if it had been used more wisely.

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richw_82
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by richw_82 »

I'm a little curious for all those who believe in this happening - what return on investment is an investor likely to get? A new build hangar they then can't use because its full of someone else's V-bomber, which by all accounts couldn't pay its way in one that was already standing. I don't think a warm and fuzzy feeling that XH558 is indoors would necessarily be enough to keep her there.

The plan sounds great in theory, but in reality its relying on someone turning up that actually wants to build a hangar for XH558 with no other objective. If that person doesn't appear it could well be decades away before things move from planning to building.
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Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

richw_82 wrote:I'm a little curious for all those who believe in this happening - what return on investment is an investor likely to get? A new build hangar they then can't use because its full of someone else's V-bomber, which by all accounts couldn't pay its way in one that was already standing. I don't think a warm and fuzzy feeling that XH558 is indoors would necessarily be enough to keep her there.

The plan sounds great in theory, but in reality its relying on someone turning up that actually wants to build a hangar for XH558 with no other objective. If that person doesn't appear it could well be decades away before things move from planning to building.


That's exactly what most people are thinking. Yet there a few that point out that getting a Vulcan flying was also a long shot so we should not dismiss the idea.

For me the obvious difference was the return to flight was something a vast number of people were desparate to see at all costs. However getting another Vulcan indoors though is admirable but not very important to anywhere near as many people, especially as seeing 558 fast taxi seems to be unlikely (which is what people would be excited about).

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by borismorris »

Maybe they could build this mythical hangar with a giant treadmill in it.

558 could do fast taxi runs without ever having to leave the building.

They could even power the treadmill using a giant hamsterwheel and charge people to have a go at powering the runway.

:tumbleweed: :p

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Skymonster »

Is it really possible for a developer to build a hangar at Donny and rent / lease it to VTTS for less than they paid for one of the existing hangars - which by all accounts VTTS ultimately were priced out of?

Besides, if flying ZA150 out of Dunsfold now it's going to be built on is still believed to be possible (and I gather think it that it could be done) then I'm mystified why, with the right approach and after no doubt plenty of negotiation with the men from the ministry, 558 could not be ferried out of DSA on a one-time basis - gear down, VFR, no flying over built-up areas, etc. Unless of course VTTS have made invasive mods to the aircraft that render it unairworthy...?

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by XR219 »

Skymonster wrote:Unless of course VTTS have made invasive mods to the aircraft that render it unairworthy...?


XH558 is by definition not certifiable as airworthy because OEM support is not available and it is a Complex category aircraft. It is unmodified compared to its configuration while airworthy in 2015.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

And if it was transferred from the UK register to a non-UK - and possibly non-EU - one ( such as the USA ) ?
( Like the Hunters : Unless I'm mistaken other EU Countries still allowed them to be flown when they were grounded by the CAA ... and the Americans definitely did )
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by RAF4EVER »

Dutch Hunters were grounded[G-DASH]

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

G-BWGL & G-KAXF too ?
What about non-UK-registered ones there & in other EU Countries ?
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by XR219 »

Brevet Cable wrote:And if it was transferred from the UK register to a non-UK - and possibly non-EU - one ( such as the USA ) ?
( Like the Hunters : Unless I'm mistaken other EU Countries still allowed them to be flown when they were grounded by the CAA ... and the Americans definitely did )


Good question. It might be possible to operate a Vulcan on an N reg in the USA. If you wanted to bring it to the UK, you would still need to gain an exemption from the CAA (which would be limited and specific). The CAA would say, "Isn't a Vulcan a Complex Category aircraft for which we require OEM support?"

There is another non-trivial problem for the operator. If last week it needed BAE Systems to sign it off, what has changed this week to mean that it suddenly doesn't? If the aircraft were to be involved in any sort of incident, that would place the operator on a very sticky wicket indeed.

The terms of VTTST contract with the HLF dictate that it must remain in the UK, hence N reg operation in the USA only is (with good reason) not an option.

If she could be flown, we'd be flying her for you :-(
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

Hypothetically....
If it was on the 'N-' register, would it be classified as 'Experimental'?
Do the FAA have the same requirements as the CAA when it comes to things like OEM support?
( After all, they've got a civilian registered Sea Harrier flying & have/had other aircraft such as the F-4 Phantom flying on the civilian register too )

Wasn't the main reason for R-R & BAE terminating their support early reported to be because they no longer had ( or no longer had enough ) personnel qualified to work on the engines/airframe?
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

XR219 wrote:If she could be flown, we'd be flying her for you :-(


Just as long as we didn't want it flying to Bruntingthorpe though?!

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

From what I understand the US regulations are easier to comply with than UK but OEM support is still needed. There is some good information on this explained by the group who operates the Sea Harrier which makes interesting reading. I think flying a Vulcan in the US would also now be impossible due to lack of new certifiable parts. The Harrier/AV8 and F4 are still operational aircraft. The Sea Harrier project nearly stalled because Martin Baker could not support the ejection seat - but they were able to continue by fitting an AV8 seat supported by a US company.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by GertrudetheMerciless »

Skymonster wrote:Besides, if flying ZA150 out of Dunsfold now it's going to be built on is still believed to be possible (and I gather think it that it could be done) then I'm mystified why, with the right approach and after no doubt plenty of negotiation with the men from the ministry, 558 could not be ferried out of DSA on a one-time basis - gear down, VFR, no flying over built-up areas, etc. Unless of course VTTS have made invasive mods to the aircraft that render it unairworthy...?


But, for arguments' sake:

ZA150 has been run and taxied on a regular basis. Presumably most, if not all, of the critical systems are kept live and in a functional (not necessarily administratively airworthy) condition.

ZA150, despite being an antique, is a type with quite a few "qualified" and available (but obviously not current on type) aircrew and engineers. From an aircrew point of view is it also far closer to other similar types and handles similarly (other than the engines are not in a fashionable position being at the back :smile: ).

ZA150 possibly has a potential for a relatively accessible spares pool seeing how recently the aircraft was retired, several were scrapped, and several remain in fairly good order in preservation.

:smile:

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

Returning a VC10 to flight paticularly an MR4 which had far few modifications than ZA150 is more down to money. Remember these jets were on the civil register rather than being military types, so in theory you could even return them to passenger service if there was enough money. However it would still need OEM support and I'm surprised ZA150 would be able to fly with its Conway engines which havnt been supported or overhauled by RR for several years now.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by IgnatiusJReilly »

XR219 wrote:The terms of VTTST contract with the HLF dictate that it must remain in the UK, hence N reg operation in the USA only is (with good reason) not an option


Could you possibly remind us of the other terms of the HLF contract?
Was there anything in there about public access and where XH558 was to be kept?
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by XR219 »

IgnatiusJReilly wrote:
XR219 wrote:The terms of VTTST contract with the HLF dictate that it must remain in the UK, hence N reg operation in the USA only is (with good reason) not an option


Could you possibly remind us of the other terms of the HLF contract?
Was there anything in there about public access and where XH558 was to be kept?


I answered all kinds of general questions, including about the HLF contract, in the link below

XR219 wrote:Fairly sure VTTST addressed this drilling nonsense in September. Please look for the appropriate heading in the Q&A.

http://www.vulcantothesky.org/6monthreview.html


The contract does not state where the aircraft should go, but HLF are appraised of the current plans and were supportive of them. In general, the clauses recognise that over eighty years, the aircraft will not be accessible to the public at all times, but that it should be as far as is practicable.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by speedbird2639 »

that over eighty years, the aircraft will not be accessible to the public at all times


:lmao:

When it gets scrapped and made into cola cans we'll all be able to buy a part of it!

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by HeyfordDave111 »

Accessible to the public or to the paying (at silly money) public

And ‘recognising it won’t be accessible at all times’....... well that’s an interesting sentence............ which would be better and more truthful of events the HLF are complicit in by their lax approach and terrible complaints procedures by their customers (via lotto ticket sales), if altered to..................... ‘recognising that it won’t be accessible to anyone except a select few, paying over the odds and being mug enough to do so, for the first 3 years and more since it’s grounding, then free for all from a distance as fence line as she sits outside lifeless as a great educational aid in how not to do things’
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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

XR219 wrote:
The terms of VTTST contract with the HLF dictate that it must remain in the UK, hence N reg operation in the USA only is (with good reason) not an option.



Didn't stop the scaremongering from Dr Pleming saying that it could be sold to buyers in Europe or the USA though, did it?

http://www.pressreader.com/uk/yorkshire-post/20101014/281590941922461

So he said that, in full knowledge that the HLF contract meant it could never happen? Wow. Anything to keep those pennies coming in from the gullible.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by XR219 »

Thanks for sight of the article Dan. I presume that you refer to,

“If the trust does go into administration the most likely outcome is that the aircraft will be sold to a private collector, possibly in Russia or the US, and will never fly in the UK again, he added.”

The key phrase as used by Dr Pleming being If the trust does go into administration . If the Trust had been in administration, then the contract with HLF would have fallen through and hence the clause in question would have become irrelevant.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by DonaldGrump »

XR219

May I ask what the thinking was behind going against the overwhelming majority of peoples wishes in retiring the aircraft to Doncaster? It was very clear there was no enthusiasm for such

What was the thought process behind absolutely snubbing the support regarding the final flight?

Can you clarify what the plans are regarding fast taxi and affordable access to such runs? These were promised?

On the back of these and countless other reasons people have turned their backs regarding support, how do you propose to re engage them, or have they now served their purpose?

All reasonable questions surely? Certainly ones that a lot of good people would like to hear.

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