Where has XH558 thread gone?

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XR219
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by XR219 »

DonaldGrump,

Please follow the link above to the September 2017 Q&A

May I ask what the thinking was behind going against the overwhelming majority of peoples wishes in retiring the aircraft to Doncaster? It was very clear there was no enthusiasm for such

Please look at:
VTTST knew XH558 would stop flying at some point. What was the plan?
Why did the Trust base the aircraft at Doncaster?
Where else did you consider basing the aircraft?

More broadly, the primary duty of the Trust is to fulfil its stated objectives. One of those is the continued preservation of XH558 and (by implication) the fulfilment of the HLF contract. As you know, that commitment extends for decades into the future and the Trust had to consider the location it considered the best opportunity/lowest risk to deliver on it. The wishes of our supporters were obviously one very important piece of evidence in the final decision. It is very clear that many people on this board would have liked the aircraft to have gone to Bruntingthorpe, however it is not true to say that there was not the wider enthusiasm elsewhere for Doncaster.

What was the thought process behind absolutely snubbing the support regarding the final flight?
I don’t accept the premise. The final flight clearly had to be from and to the final destination, which was Doncaster. As you know, there was a decision made by the authorities very close to the time the flight had to be made. The Trsust was placed in a position where if it had publicised the final flight, there would not have been one.

Can you clarify what the plans are regarding fast taxi and affordable access to such runs? These were promised?

Please see:
Will XH558 perform fast taxy runs and if so, when?
XH558 is ‘The People’s Aircraft’. Why is it expensive to access the aircraft on one of the engine run days.

Nothing has materially changed to affect the situation since this answer was written and we are working towards the method of quality assurance for this with the airport. I am of the opinion that this will require the new hangar as part of the process. Again, once that is the case then access will be better than it was in H3.

On the back of these and countless other reasons people have turned their backs regarding support, how do you propose to re engage them, or have they now served their purpose?
Obviously our supporters have not ‘served their purpose’, as you put it. I believe that they will be engaged by developments in the next few months.
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Dan213
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Dan213 »

XR219 wrote:DonaldGrump,

Please follow the link above to the September 2017 Q&A

May I ask what the thinking was behind going against the overwhelming majority of peoples wishes in retiring the aircraft to Doncaster? It was very clear there was no enthusiasm for such

Please look at:
VTTST knew XH558 would stop flying at some point. What was the plan?
Why did the Trust base the aircraft at Doncaster?
Where else did you consider basing the aircraft?

More broadly, the primary duty of the Trust is to fulfil its stated objectives. One of those is the continued preservation of XH558 and (by implication) the fulfilment of the HLF contract. As you know, that commitment extends for decades into the future and the Trust had to consider the location it considered the best opportunity/lowest risk to deliver on it. The wishes of our supporters were obviously one very important piece of evidence in the final decision. It is very clear that many people on this board would have liked the aircraft to have gone to Bruntingthorpe, however it is not true to say that there was not the wider enthusiasm elsewhere for Doncaster.

What was the thought process behind absolutely snubbing the support regarding the final flight?
I don’t accept the premise. The final flight clearly had to be from and to the final destination, which was Doncaster. As you know, there was a decision made by the authorities very close to the time the flight had to be made. The Trsust was placed in a position where if it had publicised the final flight, there would not have been one.

Can you clarify what the plans are regarding fast taxi and affordable access to such runs? These were promised?

Please see:
Will XH558 perform fast taxy runs and if so, when?
XH558 is ‘The People’s Aircraft’. Why is it expensive to access the aircraft on one of the engine run days.

Nothing has materially changed to affect the situation since this answer was written and we are working towards the method of quality assurance for this with the airport. I am of the opinion that this will require the new hangar as part of the process. Again, once that is the case then access will be better than it was in H3.

On the back of these and countless other reasons people have turned their backs regarding support, how do you propose to re engage them, or have they now served their purpose?
Obviously our supporters have not ‘served their purpose’, as you put it. I believe that they will be engaged by developments in the next few months.



Once again spouting the same old stuff as before. When will those involved with the trust wake up and enter the real world?

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by GertrudetheMerciless »

Xm657 wrote:Returning a VC10 to flight paticularly an MR4 which had far few modifications than ZA150 is more down to money. Remember these jets were on the civil register rather than being military types, so in theory you could even return them to passenger service if there was enough money. However it would still need OEM support and I'm surprised ZA150 would be able to fly with its Conway engines which havnt been supported or overhauled by RR for several years now.


ZA150 was of course on the foreign civil register.

As for the engines, Conway’s made not have had manufacturer support, but there are probably more available (in various conditions) than Olympae! I doubt it would fly on its current engines.

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

XR219 wrote:Thanks for sight of the article Dan. I presume that you refer to,

“If the trust does go into administration the most likely outcome is that the aircraft will be sold to a private collector, possibly in Russia or the US, and will never fly in the UK again, he added.”

The key phrase as used by Dr Pleming being If the trust does go into administration . If the Trust had been in administration, then the contract with HLF would have fallen through and hence the clause in question would have become irrelevant.

From the annual accounts :
The Trust may be required to repay some or all of this grant in the event of the sale, disposal or mortgage charge of the plane without prior approval of the NHMF.
The amount repayable is currently limited to £427,000.


So as has been said before, the Trust could sell XH558 whenever it wanted, but it would/may then have to pay back the outstanding portion of the HLF grant.
If they sold it with the approval of the HLF, they may not even have to pay anything back.
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XR219
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by XR219 »

Please see ...The HLF contract has an end clause.... in the Q&A for a contractual problem with this approach.
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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

Which would result in the part of the annual accounts I quoted above, I assume.
If not, what is stated in the Q&A ...
However, another of the clauses of the contract makes it clear that VTTST cannot themselves seek to end the relationship with the HLF. Sensibly, this guards against the possibility that the Trust would have simply have fulfilled its flying aspirations and considered the rest of the contract unimportant. The Trust understands that it has a responsibility, both to its own and any future HLF heritage aviation projects, to do all it can to fulfil the aims of agreed prior to the Vulcan’s restoration.

...would mean that the paragraph from the annual accounts ( which has been in them since they were first published back in 2008/9 ) is inaccurate, isn't it?

And it's also a vaque comment, in my opinion - either VTST can sell XH558 ( as per the first part ) or they can't ( which is inferred from the second part ).....it can't be both.
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IgnatiusJReilly
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by IgnatiusJReilly »

Gents,
With all due respect, the HLF contract isn't worth the paper it's written on.
If requested, VTTS haven't got the money to repay it, the HLF absolutely don't want the asset, the HLF don't want to have to try and sell the airframe. Clearly it has no value beyond its scrap worth, being stuck in Doncaster and to call in the loan would publicly announce that this deal has turned sour.

VTTS know this - The fact that XH558 is abandoned out on the periphery of an airfield with no meaningful public access for ages now, with no progress to report beyond a speculative planning permission request.
Talk of the HLF contract is just a smokescreen, bullsh*t baffling brains, used to justify why there's no alternative plan for this airframe.

And so it will continue, on and on, whilst they can still fund the payroll...
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Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

XR219, why do you think building the hangar is a prerequisite for fast taxing? Surely 558 is perfectly cabable of doing so safely now all that is needed is to convince the airport. It would go a long way to silence critics, help with funding and generally raise 558's profile to fast taxi this year - and might really help in the search for a developer - reminding people what she can do.

Making the hangar a dependancy just feels like a convenient excuse to me. Either Doncaster is going to let you taxi or not. The longer it's left since she last flew the harder it's going to be to convince them and the less serviceable 558 will become. And the more convinced many people will be that's it's never going to happen and turn their interests and wallets elsewhere.

655 won't taxi in 2018, 426 is unlikely to publically so why not do something that will be a real positive and show 558 off again moving under her own power, making a roar and lifting a front wheel? Or do you actually know it's never going to happen?

XR219
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by XR219 »

Xm657

It is not necessarily a pre-requisite, I just think it will simplify things from a QA perspective. It isn't as simple as the airport will let it happen or they won't; we will need to satisfy their requirements. I agree that fast taxy would be a statement of intent and would be welcomed. I believe we'll get there, but would not put a date on it. It might be this year, which would be great. It might not be this year, but I believe it will happen.
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Skymonster
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Skymonster »

XR219 wrote:
Skymonster wrote:Unless of course VTTS have made invasive mods to the aircraft that render it unairworthy...?


XH558 is by definition not certifiable as airworthy because OEM support is not available and it is a Complex category aircraft. It is unmodified compared to its configuration while airworthy in 2015.


XH558 was airworthy and was on the UK register - maybe operated on a permit rather than a full CofA but that's all.

Forget about N-reg and all that... I'm sure if it was to be operated regularly again in would need OEM support, bit for a one time flight? Are you absolutely 100% saying for certain the CAA has categorically refused to allow a one-time ferry flight? I'm pretty sure if ZA150 is moved by air it won't have OEM support - and it was modified so extensively from commercial configuration when it became a tanker that I'm sure it could not be recertified as an original VC10.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Skymonster »

XR219 wrote:It isn't as simple as the airport will let it happen or they won't; we will need to satisfy their requirements.


OK, come on then - here's the $64,000 question... What are the airport's requirements that, if fulfilled by VTTS, will enable 558 to do fast taxi runs? By inference you seem to suggest you know. And if you don't know what the airport's requirements are, that points the decision to park it at DSA being made without adequate investigation.

Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

Thanks for your response XR219. It would be nice to think VttST are aiming to fast taxi this year. Even if that proves impossible, stating that a public fast taxi is the AIM this year would give people something to look forward to. I'm sure many people are beginning to think it's never going to happen or isn't a priority any more so reaffirming it in the newsletter would be a very welcome thing.

XR219
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by XR219 »

Skymonster,

I don't know anything about ZA150 I'm afraid. Best wishes to all involved.

There have been discussions with the CAA. They are confidential. The outcome is that VTTST do not believe planning for a ferry flight is useful.

There are ongoing discussions with DSA. They are confidential. I am confident that everyone wants this to work and that the result will be satisfactory. I can't be more specific. When there is news, it will be announced.

Xm657,

As per my response, we intend to perform accessible taxy runs, however we need to get it right and ensure that DSA's trust in us not to break their airport is maintained. I believe priority 1 for both VTTST and all of XH558's friends is to get her under cover.
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IgnatiusJReilly
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by IgnatiusJReilly »

I'm impressed at the patience shown, but seriously, the trust has had years since the end of flight. And millions of pounds.
If Doncaster airport, fundamentally, were willing to allow fast taxying, it should have / would have happened before now.
Talk of 'maybe this year / maybe next is disingenuous.
Conditions for fast taxying should have been understood well before the end of flight destination was settled and the first scheduled runs completed within 6 months.

If it hasn't happened by now, it's not going to.
And just supposing, even, even if it did... it won't be open to the general public. In that I mean that numbers will be strictly limited and there'll be a hefty charge. If it's going to cost you a ton to watch a static engine run, what do you suppose they're going to charge for a fast taxi?
And what makes you think Doncaster will suddenly waive the airside 18 age limit?

sorry... talk of fast taxying is a smokescreen to hide the failures of VTTS and utter baloney
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by HeyfordDave111 »

Totally agree with the last poster, and you could argue further that why would anyone want to pay to go in when it’s easy to see inside from outside for free?

Sorry but all I see is an organisation that didn’t get ‘all their ducks in a row’ before the final landing, and are now paying the price of losing members, enthusiasts etc.

When was the last time anyone here, while in a pub, or out at an airfield heard 558 mentioned, or even fast taxi runs and enthusiasm for them mentioned? Bet there’s not many.

Once upon a time (3 years ago, yes read that again, 3 years ago) she was the most reveared aircraft in the UK, more so, dare I say it, than Concorde. Now she’s really nothing but a pseudo realistically painted, non original non working (as in fast runs) V bomber,

I take my hat off to those that are still championing the cause, but 3 years is now to turn into a 4th, and without any shelter for her and the ‘others’ too, it must surely make even the die hards start to get a little fidgety in their seats.

It’s almost criminal the way this was all handled. To say Doncaster was a favourite for its final resting place seems to be a gross exaggeration, when given the other options. I do note that just on this forum, the majority (and I think it was a huge one) would rather have seen her elsewhere amongst the ‘proper’ options of museums without a Vulcan.

I wonder if one day we will truly know the truth about the decision rather than spin and bluster we still get now.
But like a lingering death of a loved one, I fear this will drag on, 558 will continue to be a cash cow that raises just enough to get by and pay the wages and for pro forma invoices, for tat to sell to the unsuspecting mugs that will buy a tenuously linked bit of rubbish.

That’s not to say 558 isn’t still loved, but it’s more the great great great aunt you only ever hear about in hushed conversations rather than the aunt who you hear from every couple of weeks. And I think that love is waining sadly.
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richw_82
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by richw_82 »

XR219 wrote:Skymonster,

There have been discussions with the CAA. They are confidential. The outcome is that VTTST do not believe planning for a ferry flight is useful.


Why is it confidential? Its discussing an airworthiness requirement for a one off flight, not planning a world tour. A Freedom Of Information request to the CAA would probably find out what restrictions - if any - they have mandated that led to VTTST's decision. The fact that VTTST themselves either won't or can't make public what made that decision speaks volumes about how your charity regards the public.


XR219 wrote:There are ongoing discussions with DSA. They are confidential. I am confident that everyone wants this to work and that the result will be satisfactory. I can't be more specific. When there is news, it will be announced.


Again, the 'Its confidential.' get out clause. Is it that difficult to elaborate on what level of serviceability, safety and crowd control they require? Or have DSA thrown you a curve and demanded you work to your previous standards (ie - airworthy) and involve the OEM's to avoid the risk of popping another two engines?

XR219 wrote:Xm657,

I believe priority 1 for both VTTST and all of XH558's friends is to get her under cover.


Priority 1 ought to be getting her earning her keep and bringing some funding in. To quote a certain well trodden Q&A - "It should be noted that both the Vulcan and the Canberra were expected to spend much of their service lives outside."

Reading through a lot of the stuff you write, you ought to be a politician. Lots of substance, very little value.
Last edited by richw_82 on Sat 31 Mar 2018, 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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kinglear27
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by kinglear27 »

Couldn't have put it better myself Richard. VTTS have lots to answer for.

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MicrolightDriver
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

richw_82 wrote:...Priority 1 ought to be getting her earning her keep and bringing some funding in...


Does appear from their website that work towards that goes is well underway:-

Latest XH558 Servicing Work

Dan213
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Dan213 »

MicrolightDriver wrote:
richw_82 wrote:...Priority 1 ought to be getting her earning her keep and bringing some funding in...


Does appear from their website that work towards that goes is well underway:-

Latest XH558 Servicing Work


I’m sorry, but how in any way shape or form does a private engine run show that? Take the rose tinted glasses off. Please... You’ve been saying exactly the same things every time they have done this for the past 3 years and nothing has come of it. What makes you believe that this time will be any different to the rest?

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

No fast taxi runs this year. Just the normal engine run days for the few dozen willing to pay.
Those runs are anti det runs that must be done anway, so nothing for the public really.

Like above. They have been there 3 years since grounded and no fast taxi day. So the chance of getting one is very
Slim to none.

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richw_82
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by richw_82 »

MicrolightDriver wrote:
richw_82 wrote:...Priority 1 ought to be getting her earning her keep and bringing some funding in...


Does appear from their website that work towards that goes is well underway:-

Latest XH558 Servicing Work


Quite possibly. But where does running regularly for the public come on the Trustee's priority scale? If priority 1 truly is the hangar above all else, how much effort is being diverted that could be better used on XH558 (and poor old WK163)?
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vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

Those engine runs pays the fuel and I would think do not even pay the wages bill for the month.
They will not pay for an hangar or cover the rent on an hangar.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Cole »

i would imagine that WK163 is in a worse state now than when it arrived :down:
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Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

Again thanks for the response XR219, considering the hostile audience here, it's appreciated that someone from the VttST posts.

While I agree getting 558 under cover is clearly the most important thing, I don't see why it needs to be mutually exclusive to organising fast taxiing. In fact I think a public fast taxi, which draws a big crowd along Old Bawtry Road would be beneficial for attracting hangar funding/support. It should be funded by a share scheme similar to her farewell tour where if enough money can be raised by donations it goes ahead without the need for tickets for anyone who wants to see it - just as during the flying years. Small scale expensive engine runs isn't sustainable, people willing to pay for that premium event will run out.

So I would urge the VttST to really try hard to organise a PUBLIC fast taxi this year. Surely the staff aren't spending every minute of every day contacting potential developers about the hangar. While they are waiting for developers to get back to them, use the time to work with the airport to make it happen. Even your remaining most loyal supporters are going to run out of patience if no progress is made on this.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by bernarde »

Engine runs for the inner circle must be due soon, 2 places being given away as a raffle prize here: https://www.facebook.com/events/160163441302765/

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