Where has XH558 thread gone?

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Skymonster
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Skymonster »

XR219 wrote:There have been discussions with the CAA. They are confidential.

There are ongoing discussions with DSA. They are confidential.


So in other words, the people who have supported VTTS with their hard-earned cash do not have the rights to understand what progress is being made on allowing them to see the fruits of their good will and benevolent donations. I am at a loss to understand why either set of discussions need to be confidential as neither would seem to be commercially sensitive. It's not as if supporters are being impatient - it's been three years. What a terrible way to address the very people VTTS presumably will be relying on to enable the operation to continue.

Skymonster
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Skymonster »

Xm657 wrote:Again thanks for the response XR219, considering the hostile audience here, it's appreciated that someone from the VttST posts.


I don't think the people who post here are overly hostile. Challenging maybe. They are passionate about the subject, and some / many of them feel let down given the seeming lack of progress and open communication over the last three years. Sometimes, passion gets vented in a form that appears to verge on hostility.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by reheat module »

It's the people's aircraft... up to a point, - and that point is reached when people want details of what it's future consists of.
I look forward to having my part of the people's aircraft, when I look at the writing on the side of the coke can which reads "made with 10% recycled XH558"
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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

Xm657 wrote:Again thanks for the response XR219, considering the hostile audience here, it's appreciated that someone from the VttST posts

Look at it this way.....this forum is privileged because at least discourse is occurring, unlike the VTTS forum where long-term supporters are being ignored & questions remain unanswered.
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MicrolightDriver
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

Dan213 wrote:
MicrolightDriver wrote:
richw_82 wrote:...Priority 1 ought to be getting her earning her keep and bringing some funding in...


Does appear from their website that work towards that goes is well underway:-

Latest XH558 Servicing Work


I’m sorry, but how in any way shape or form does a private engine run show that?...


I'd say that maintenance work in preparation for ( usually considered heinously lucrative ) public engine run events shows that they're looking for XH558 to 'earn her keep and bring some funding in'..

Sorry if that doesn't fit the fashionable narrative.

Continue to cry over what's happened if you like, but unless you're prepared to bin the aircraft in a tantrum, this has got to be about whatever offers XH558 a safe and secure, long term and active future based from a hangar. I still haven't seen any better plan than the one being pursued by VTTS.

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Gonzo230
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Gonzo230 »

Skymonster wrote:
XR219 wrote:There have been discussions with the CAA. They are confidential.

There are ongoing discussions with DSA. They are confidential.


So in other words, the people who have supported VTTS with their hard-earned cash do not have the rights to understand what progress is being made on allowing them to see the fruits of their good will and benevolent donations. I am at a loss to understand why either set of discussions need to be confidential as neither would seem to be commercially sensitive. It's not as if supporters are being impatient - it's been three years. What a terrible way to address the very people VTTS presumably will be relying on to enable the operation to continue.


The confidentiality is nothing to do with the ‘rights of the people’, or VTTS attitude toward them.

For a start I imagine any discussion with the Airport will be commercial in confidence by default. VTTS will not be able to just ignore that. The airport is a commercial company struggling to make a profit, and competitors and current customers/tenants might well be able to use any information gained from publishing details that you seem to be asking for their own gain.

As to discussions with UK CAA, there are many reasons why this should be kept private. I’ve been involved in constant discussions with UK CAA in my professional capacity over the past twelve years. If you’re sensible in aviation, you cultivate a close relationship with whichever part of the CAA you need to deal with. This needs confidence to discuss matters which might be formative and immature, not fully thought through, but would certainly make headlines if they got out. I doubt those headlines, be they in major national news outlets, or aviation enthusiast websites, would be accompanied by narrative which would fully describe the able the context, assumptions and background of those discussions.

vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

558s earned her keep and its just squandered, non of the millions raised over the last 3 years since last flight as been used to put a permanent roof over her head.

Non of the money from any of these engine runs this year will go towards that goal either.
Shes a cash cow for the trusts wages and pension fund only.

End of this year the the pot will still be empty.
It costs nothing to keep 558 running, she as spares and a so called volunteer group that can maintain her.
She as no hangar bills etc, she is outside.

So when the years accounts say millions raised and nothing in the bank like every other year.
Then shes been Robbed.

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richw_82
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by richw_82 »

Gonzo230 wrote:The confidentiality is nothing to do with the ‘rights of the people’, or VTTS attitude toward them.

For a start I imagine any discussion with the Airport will be commercial in confidence by default. VTTS will not be able to just ignore that. The airport is a commercial company struggling to make a profit, and competitors and current customers/tenants might well be able to use any information gained from publishing details that you seem to be asking for their own gain.

As to discussions with UK CAA, there are many reasons why this should be kept private. I’ve been involved in constant discussions with UK CAA in my professional capacity over the past twelve years. If you’re sensible in aviation, you cultivate a close relationship with whichever part of the CAA you need to deal with. This needs confidence to discuss matters which might be formative and immature, not fully thought through, but would certainly make headlines if they got out. I doubt those headlines, be they in major national news outlets, or aviation enthusiast websites, would be accompanied by narrative which would fully describe the able the context, assumptions and background of those discussions.


I could understand some things being commercial in confidence, but not necessarily just letting the public know - even roughly - what the requirements are that DSA have set to taxy the Vulcan. Its not as if anybody wants chapter and verse, just the gist of things; it would help understand why its taking such a long and difficult route to seeing it happen. Is it a serviceability issue? A support issue? A crewing problem? Are the local authoritoes weighing in as with the last flight, fearing massed hordes blocking all the roads? None of these are queries likely to cause significant loss of funding to either party - if anything it might get more of the people here and elsewhere back behind VTTST.

The same applies to some extent with the CAA. There will have been something in the discussions that will have been a dealbreaker - VTTST have already admitted in the past they looked at a ferry flight and rejected it. No headlines, no stopped presses. No answers either. Still, one small e-mail and now CAA have 20 working days to tell me. If I can't get the answers out the monkey, I'll go to the organ grinder.
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MicrolightDriver
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

richw_82 wrote:
The same applies to some extent with the CAA. There will have been something in the discussions that will have been a dealbreaker - VTTST have already admitted in the past they looked at a ferry flight and rejected it. No headlines, no stopped presses. No answers either. Still, one small e-mail and now CAA have 20 working days to tell me. If I can't get the answers out the monkey, I'll go to the organ grinder.


Are you willing to share the question / information you've requested from the CAA?

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Domvickery »

MicrolightDriver wrote:
richw_82 wrote:
The same applies to some extent with the CAA. There will have been something in the discussions that will have been a dealbreaker - VTTST have already admitted in the past they looked at a ferry flight and rejected it. No headlines, no stopped presses. No answers either. Still, one small e-mail and now CAA have 20 working days to tell me. If I can't get the answers out the monkey, I'll go to the organ grinder.


Are you willing to share the question / information you've requested from the CAA?


I would go as far as to say yes, Rich during his time on the Shackleton was one of willing & openess towards his & any others dialect with the CAA/FAA
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MicrolightDriver
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

Domvickery wrote:
MicrolightDriver wrote:
richw_82 wrote:
The same applies to some extent with the CAA. There will have been something in the discussions that will have been a dealbreaker - VTTST have already admitted in the past they looked at a ferry flight and rejected it. No headlines, no stopped presses. No answers either. Still, one small e-mail and now CAA have 20 working days to tell me. If I can't get the answers out the monkey, I'll go to the organ grinder.


Are you willing to share the question / information you've requested from the CAA?


I would go as far as to say yes, Rich during his time on the Shackleton was one of willing & openess towards his & any others dialect with the CAA/FAA


Wasn't questioning the poster's openness - I'm just interested to know the actual question that has been posed to the CAA.

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Gonzo230
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Gonzo230 »

richw_82 wrote:
Gonzo230 wrote:The confidentiality is nothing to do with the ‘rights of the people’, or VTTS attitude toward them.

For a start I imagine any discussion with the Airport will be commercial in confidence by default. VTTS will not be able to just ignore that. The airport is a commercial company struggling to make a profit, and competitors and current customers/tenants might well be able to use any information gained from publishing details that you seem to be asking for their own gain.

As to discussions with UK CAA, there are many reasons why this should be kept private. I’ve been involved in constant discussions with UK CAA in my professional capacity over the past twelve years. If you’re sensible in aviation, you cultivate a close relationship with whichever part of the CAA you need to deal with. This needs confidence to discuss matters which might be formative and immature, not fully thought through, but would certainly make headlines if they got out. I doubt those headlines, be they in major national news outlets, or aviation enthusiast websites, would be accompanied by narrative which would fully describe the able the context, assumptions and background of those discussions.


I could understand some things being commercial in confidence, but not necessarily just letting the public know - even roughly - what the requirements are that DSA have set to taxy the Vulcan. Its not as if anybody wants chapter and verse, just the gist of things; it would help understand why its taking such a long and difficult route to seeing it happen. Is it a serviceability issue? A support issue? A crewing problem? Are the local authoritoes weighing in as with the last flight, fearing massed hordes blocking all the roads? None of these are queries likely to cause significant loss of funding to either party - if anything it might get more of the people here and elsewhere back behind VTTST.

The same applies to some extent with the CAA. There will have been something in the discussions that will have been a dealbreaker - VTTST have already admitted in the past they looked at a ferry flight and rejected it. No headlines, no stopped presses. No answers either. Still, one small e-mail and now CAA have 20 working days to tell me. If I can't get the answers out the monkey, I'll go to the organ grinder.


What about if the discussions are still ongoing? Putting what has been discussed already out into the public may compromise a negotiation.

In terms of the CAA, there might not be any documents, in my experience any initial engagement is done verbally.

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richw_82
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by richw_82 »

I haven't asked for specifics as I don't want to beach any confidentiality or cause legal difficulties, but from these questions I should get definitive answer. I've asked what restrictions legal or otherwise are in place that would prevent a Vulcan B MK 2 getting a permit to fly for ferry in the UK. I've asked if any new restrictions were put in place by the CAA. Lastly I've asked if any current operator has actually had discussion regarding attaining such a permit.

Similarly I'll also let this board know any answer I get.

Dom, thank you. It means at least I did one thing right.
Last edited by richw_82 on Sat 31 Mar 2018, 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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richw_82
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by richw_82 »

Gonzo230 wrote:
What about if the discussions are still ongoing? Putting what has been discussed already out into the public may compromise a negotiation.


I thought that, but the repeated assertion that DSA are supportive makes me think not. When we were looking to taxy Nimrod and Shackleton at Coventry, we had requirements to meet also; mostly related to not blocking the runway or ruining it in any way. We also had to agree that in case of blocking a runway, or a fire we accepted loss of the aircraft as a result. Part of me wonders if its that making VTTST cautious.

Gonzo230 wrote:In terms of the CAA, there might not be any documents, in my experience any initial engagement is done verbally.


Maybe, maybe not. We'll see.
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Big Eric
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Big Eric »

I've just seen this, I can't wait to see the photos.

http://www.vulcantothesky.org/smf/index ... g82653#new

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Pen Pusher »

And today's date is?

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vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

Big Eric wrote:I've just seen this, I can't wait to see the photos.

http://www.vulcantothesky.org/smf/index ... g82653#new

That would not happen, Brunti would not make it secret, they would open the gates to all the people to see the peoples aircraft land.

Reds Rolling
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Reds Rolling »

Pen Pusher wrote:And today's date is?

It's April 1st everyday in this thread! :clown:

DonaldGrump
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by DonaldGrump »

Reds Rolling wrote:
Pen Pusher wrote:And today's date is?

It's April 1st everyday in this thread! :clown:


Predictable mensa level contribution.....at least you end it with a self portrait? Vanity has no limits eh?

Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

If only I'd been online this morning I could have made a spoof announcement that the hangar funding has been found. Now that would have been an even bigger April fool than a ferry flight to Bruntingthorpe.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by HeyfordDave111 »

Xm657 wrote:If only I'd been online this morning I could have made a spoof announcement that the hangar funding has been found. Now that would have been an even bigger April fool than a ferry flight to Bruntingthorpe.


Don’t be silly, it’s only been 4 months since planning permission was awarded, you couldn’t expect us to believe that they had backing this year mate :grin:
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Reds Rolling »

DonaldGrump wrote:
Reds Rolling wrote:
Pen Pusher wrote:And today's date is?

It's April 1st everyday in this thread! :clown:


Predictable mensa level contribution.....at least you end it with a self portrait? Vanity has no limits eh?

Image

Big Eric
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Big Eric »

How things have changed on UKAR over the years, this forum used to be fun and we could have a laugh. Not now, the laughter has long gone, and so has XH558's future.

vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

Is the rumour true that 558 is getting the RAF 100 sticker.
Or was it some april fool joke going about.

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

More damning comments on the VTTS forum over recent days, I see ( post #297 onwards ) :
http://www.vulcantothesky.org/smf/index.php?topic=7820.285
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