Where has XH558 thread gone?

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Reds Rolling on Thu 07 Sep 2017, 12:56 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:The lack of accountability and rank bad decision-making is especially galling.

The same names remain year-in, year-out, answering it seems to no-one but themselves. Pleming. Edmondson. Trotter. Making and compounding mistake after mistake, which began with the madness of landing at Doncaster. And no-one can remove them.

They can be removed by not giving them any money and letting it fold. It really is that simple.

If people are happy to continue giving money to VttS then that's their business and no amount of bleating an faux outrage here will change it.
Reds Rolling

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby BillRamsey on Thu 07 Sep 2017, 12:57 pm

Don't normally comment on stuff on here, but with regard to 9 Aircrew still being employed at the end of 2016, I find that hard to fathom. I can categorically tell you that 6 of the seven crew flying the aircraft at the end were 'terminated' at the end of February 2016, leaving only the Chief Pilot/Ops Director. One or 2 ex-Aircrew may have been retained but no idea how that number gets to nine. As I say don't normally comment but you appear to be talking about me and my friends so I want to put the record straight.

Bill
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 07 Sep 2017, 12:57 pm

pbeardmore wrote:Interesting that one of the trustees is an MP,

this could get very complicated

He's been a Trustee for a good number of years.....I have a feeling he's been one since VTST's inception.
Easily spotted by the fact that he always wears his Vulcan lapel badge.
Last edited by Brevet Cable on Thu 07 Sep 2017, 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Thu 07 Sep 2017, 12:58 pm

Reds Rolling wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:The lack of accountability and rank bad decision-making is especially galling.

The same names remain year-in, year-out, answering it seems to no-one but themselves. Pleming. Edmondson. Trotter. Making and compounding mistake after mistake, which began with the madness of landing at Doncaster. And no-one can remove them.

They can be removed by not giving them any money and letting it fold. It really is that simple.

If people are happy to continue giving money to VttS then that's their business and no amount of bleating an faux outrage here will change it.


There's no "faux outrage". People are rightly furious that money given in good faith has been spunked on salaries, pay-offs, "consultancy", "services" and, it seems, a lot of things other than what it was donated for in the first place - XH558.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Reds Rolling on Thu 07 Sep 2017, 1:01 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
Reds Rolling wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:The lack of accountability and rank bad decision-making is especially galling.

The same names remain year-in, year-out, answering it seems to no-one but themselves. Pleming. Edmondson. Trotter. Making and compounding mistake after mistake, which began with the madness of landing at Doncaster. And no-one can remove them.

They can be removed by not giving them any money and letting it fold. It really is that simple.

If people are happy to continue giving money to VttS then that's their business and no amount of bleating an faux outrage here will change it.


There's no "faux outrage". People are rightly furious that money given in good faith has been spunked on salaries, pay-offs, "consultancy", "services" and, it seems, a lot of things other than what it was donated for in the first place - XH558.

More fool them for giving their money then, but I doubt anyone here still donates, so why be furious? You seem to be talking to the wrong people.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 07 Sep 2017, 1:04 pm

BillRamsey wrote:Don't normally comment on stuff on here, but with regard to 9 Aircrew still being employed at the end of 2016, I find that hard to fathom. I can categorically tell you that 6 of the seven crew flying the aircraft at the end were 'terminated' at the end of February 2016, leaving only the Chief Pilot/Ops Director. One or 2 ex-Aircrew may have been retained but no idea how that number gets to nine. As I say don't normally comment but you appear to be talking about me and my friends so I want to put the record straight.

Bill

Which makes you wonder how the accounts they provided to the Charity Commission ( which were signed-off as being correct by the Trustees & accountants ) say differently.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby pbeardmore on Thu 07 Sep 2017, 1:11 pm

Charity law in the UK is pretty liberal and there have been high profile cases recently where Trustees have been lacking.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... 33/433.pdf

Page 56 para 7 points out that, in this case (Kids Company), nobody made a formal complaint to the Commision even when there were serious concerns from doners and other parties and that adverse comment was being made openly but not to the commision.
The commision cant get involved unless someone has complained. If trustees and employees dont complain , then a charity will just keep going until all of the money is spent.

So the moral is, if you are a doner and have serious concerns, then make a complaint.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby planenuttoo on Thu 07 Sep 2017, 5:05 pm

pbeardmore wrote:So the moral is, if you are a doner and have serious concerns, then make a complaint.

.............and if it's your money and you make your choice, then why should you care what others say?
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Thu 07 Sep 2017, 8:16 pm

Yes I am outranged RR, luckily for the VttST though, most of your supporters are not as close to the detail and think their money is being spent directly on the Vulcan and its future (in fact some think its still flying). To learn that three quarter of a million has been spent on paying people to do nothing is staggering - I say nothing as we have a Vulcan outdoors with no real progress or financial pot for building it a hangar. We were told that each person was earning for the Trust a multiple of what they cost to employ - but clearly as there is a deficit and some were flight crew - this was quite clearly a lie.

While nothing illegal has occurred here, it is certainly highly immoral to misappropriate money on the scale they have done. Hopefully the wider public will learn what is happening to their money and cease further support, as I am sure collapse of the VttTS is now the only way to move forward for 558. Hopefully this will be picked up by the aviation press before its too late. If anyone from VttTS is reading this, shame on you, you clearly have no ethics, but you probably don't care and maintain your arrogant smugness though.

I used to think the VttTS at least were trying their best for 558 and it was just their ambition and ego causing mistakes, now I believe it is gross incompetence and greed (greed which has been going on for years during the flying years too).
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Brevet Cable on Thu 07 Sep 2017, 8:26 pm

Xm657 wrote:To learn that three quarter of a million has been spent on paying people to do nothing is staggering

Especially given that their income for that period was £2.4 million....so effectively a third of their income went on wages.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Thu 07 Sep 2017, 9:02 pm

Brevet Cable wrote:
Xm657 wrote:To learn that three quarter of a million has been spent on paying people to do nothing is staggering

Especially given that their income for that period was £2.4 million....so effectively a third of their income went on wages.


What is especially repugnant is the fact that, quite clearly, a large section of those who still support the project aren't exactly the sharpest, nor the most well-to-do. They're giving money they probably can't afford, in the belief that they're paying to look after XH558, and even keep it flying (just read any thread on the Facebook site). How VTTS can spend £750,000+ of these people's money on salaries and another £100,000 on redundancy money is quite obscene and lacking in any conscience and decency.

All staff should have been made aware the cash stopped the second it landed for the last time. Contracts should have been written accordingly, and a volunteer team should have taken over from that point onwards. Right now we are seeing what people have been saying for years, VTTS has been operated as a gravy train for the benefit of a few people. The wishes of the majority have always been a distant second.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby steveb23 on Thu 07 Sep 2017, 9:26 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
Right now we are seeing what people have been saying for years, VTTS has been operated as a gravy train for the benefit of a few people. The wishes of the majority have always been a distant second.


I never thought it was this fishy until today! VTTS has always been hand to mouth financially, now it certainly appears the mouth is the staff and not the Vulcan!

This could be a real scandal.

Is RR from VTTS?
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Thu 07 Sep 2017, 9:33 pm

steveb23 wrote:
Is RR from VTTS?


I believe so. I was given a name. I have no reason to doubt the source.

As for a scandal, I don't think for one second anything illegal has gone on. It is a case of whether it is morally right or acceptable to be paying huge sums of supporters' money, donated in good faith, to indivuduals when it is quite obvious where the project is headed. The time for a dignified end, in which Pleming and co rode off into the sunset as heroes, was October 2015. Now we are way, way past that.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Thu 07 Sep 2017, 11:04 pm

It seems likely that RR is from the Trust as it certainly seemed the infamous Neverfuel was. The fact that they troll this forum, pretending to be people they are not, making really quite stupid comments quite often, should tell you all you need to know about what the higher management of VttST is or has become. I likened them to the Pigs of George Orwell's Animal Farm and still think this aptly sums them up - initially did great things but got greedy with other people's money.

What is soul distroying is that even after screwing up the final resting place they have wasted enough money that could have been spent at Doncaster to build 558 her own hangar. The chance to maximise the good will and interest shortly after flying ended could have got a permanent facility built and paid for. Instead they have blown it all and hope for an endless stream of visitors to pay the rent for the next 80 years.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby pbeardmore on Thu 07 Sep 2017, 11:18 pm

There is a longer term impact that goes beyond the Vulcan.

In future, there will be other charities attempting to get something else into the air and the experience with the Vulcan has the potential to unfairly taint future charity appeals.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 1:33 am

Yes indeed. And I expect Marshalls will think twice about deferring their costs after having to write off £1.3 million while Mr Pleming and the boys were checking themselves into expensive hotels and running up their expense accounts over the years. Quaffing champaign with your hard earned donations while Marshals, the OEMs, David Walton etc gave them everything for free. Although there is probably a lot of this in many charities - how much of your donation actually goes to the good cause and how much on staff wages - but in the case of VttST though in 2016 none of your money ever reached the good cause.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 8:14 am

Xm657 wrote:Yes indeed. And I expect Marshalls will think twice about deferring their costs after having to write off £1.3 million while Mr Pleming and the boys were checking themselves into expensive hotels and running up their expense accounts over the years. Quaffing champaign with your hard earned donations while Marshals, the OEMs, David Walton etc gave them everything for free. Although there is probably a lot of this in many charities - how much of your donation actually goes to the good cause and how much on staff wages - but in the case of VttST though in 2016 none of your money ever reached the good cause.


An excellent point made about Marshalls.

I wonder how many other creditors and companies offered them "mates rates" or freebies without realising the money that was being hoovered up by the staff?
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Spiny Norman on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 9:09 am

It’s great to see that people are still highly interested in this historic aircraft and its future.

As to the doings of the charity overseeing its maintenance and preservation, if someone has strong misgivings they should use the appropriate official channels.

In terms of what is being said on these pages, I would be careful of using terms such as ‘misappropriate’ as these could have potential legal implications.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Reds Rolling on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 10:20 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
steveb23 wrote:
Is RR from VTTS?


I believe so. I was given a name. I have no reason to doubt the source.

DOH, I think you and your 'source' have been on the sauce! :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

There's nothing happening that hasn't been happening for all the time VttS has been going, and it's been discussed to death for over eight years!
I think if there were any wrongdoing then they might have been pulled to account by now don't you think?

There's other grounded Vulcans that we can donate to, it's not like we're being forced to keep giving to this one! :roll:
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby IgnatiusJReilly on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 11:07 am

I haven't gone through the newly published accounts yet but reading the comments posted on here, a couple of points struck me;
    I'm slightly surprised at how surprised people are about what's going on here. We'd worked all of this out a long time ago. Granted, seeing it confirmed in the accounts is still shocking, but all the signs have been clearly there for all to see that this is now just a franchise being milked to pay salaries and pensions.
    As they've alluded to before, most of the people donating to the franchise, pay little attention to social media.
    I agree fully with the points made previously, that the way that this has gone will have repercussions for other 'return to flight' projects and that will extend to both gaining public and private company support.
    I'd be surprised if this story wasn't, eventually, picked up by the media, which will only make it harder for other projects to gain support.

But just to pick up on the headline number. Say it slowly.
Three Quarters of a Million Pounds.
Seven hundred and fifty THOUSAND pounds.
On salaries.
To operate a non flying, non unique, non accessible, museum piece.
Just by way of comparison. The Fleet Air Arm Museum... 18 employees, total staff costs for 2016 - £489k.
Number of individuals receiving over £60k - zero.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 11:27 am

Dr Pleming said himself how few of their supporters use social media/online. Makes it all the more of a disgrace that the information we are aware of is denied to them, as they keep on giving money to feed the salary and pension pots.

This must end. Soon.

Why does the aviation press not take this up? I'd much rather read this in a magazine than another "V Bomber Special" or air to air with another warbird.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby aviodromefriend on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 1:10 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:Why does the aviation press not take this up? I'd much rather read this in a magazine than another "V Bomber Special" or air to air with another warbird.
Why should it be the aviation press? Do you think the people that think it is still flying are reading the aviation press? Why don't you inform the mainstream press? I thought you were a journalist. Don't you know someone in the world of journalism that would be interested in a story about these kind of (as it reads here) throwing away charity and probably HLF money?
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby IgnatiusJReilly on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 1:44 pm

aviodromefriend wrote:Why should it be the aviation press? Do you think the people that think it is still flying are reading the aviation press? Why don't you inform the mainstream press? I thought you were a journalist. Don't you know someone in the world of journalism that would be interested in a story about these kind of (as it reads here) throwing away charity and probably HLF money?


I suspect DOH and most genuine enthusiasts, would be quite embarrassed to see an aviation project, which we've all probably supported at some point in the past, being publicly pilloried in the Daily Fail.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Brevet Cable on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 1:48 pm

Which newspapers were the ones who were involved in a couple of the "Last chance to save the Vulcan" appeals ?
I think the Daily Mail was one, can't remember what the other one was.

Now I know that they routinely take up then forget about campaigns & stories as it suits them ( or how much mileage & increased sales it generates ) but given how much money their readerships donated at the time you'd have to wonder how much interest they'd show in running with it.

That said, though, most of them don't seem to employ proper investigative journalists any more, they've all been replaced by cut-and-paste googlers.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby pbeardmore on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 2:16 pm

The mainstream media are pretty clueless IMHO. We have a formal regulator with powers of investigation but they can't begin an investigation until receiving complaints (either from within or from donors)

Other serious complaints

Report serious concerns to the Charity Commission, for example if a charity is:

not doing what it claims to do
losing lots of money
harming people
being used for personal profit or gain
involved in illegal activity


People can make their own decision as to whether any of these five catagories apply in this case

https://www.gov.uk/complain-about-charity
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