Where has XH558 thread gone?

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Sun 10 Sep 2017, 6:30 pm

aviodromefriend wrote:Wasn't it ordered to the trust that the aircrew had to be paid for their services by either the HLF or the CAA?


I would have thought the stipulation was a professional arrangement with proper contracts in place etc, but I cant see how the CAA would have made a certain level of payment necessary. Even if they had, the pilots could have just chosen to waive their salary or give it back as a donation. As I said though, no reason why they should have done it for nothing, particularly if they had to turn down other paid work or give up another job and still needed to pay their bills. I'm just surprised there were not people queuing up to do it for free. Likewise now, as 558 has finished her flying days and there's much less to do, I'm surprised there aren't enough people who together couldn contribute enough time to operate the VttTS's activities for free. Maybe that could be another common misconception to rebuff: that the wage bill is still a six figure sum per annum and why is needs to be more than £0.00.
Xm657

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby bernarde on Sun 10 Sep 2017, 10:00 pm

I recall being told that each aircrew member was paid around £1k per flight. Maybe Bill could confirm of deny that one if required.
bernarde

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Sun 10 Sep 2017, 10:36 pm

bernarde wrote:I recall being told that each aircrew member was paid around £1k per flight. Maybe Bill could confirm of deny that one if required.


That's quite a figure, if true.

Imagine that, three aircrew per flight (assuming the AEO was paid the same), needing 300 people to donate a tenner just to satisfy the crew's financial demands. Extrapolate that to the number of flights in a season, multiplied by the number of display seasons.

I doubt Bill would be prepared to confirm that on a public forum, but it is the kind of question that needs to be addressed in the interests of clarity.
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Dan O'Hagan

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby XR219 on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 6:41 am

I heard it was £3k per flight and that they were a nightmare. Kev Rumens would only accept the aircraft if he'd been provided with a Brie and white grape baguette and appropriate chutney on the side. Martin insisted that the Crew Chief spelt out 'Port Stanley' in blue M&Ms on the Tarmac in front of the nosewheels. They could then be ritually crushed and the AEO was required to shout "Superfuse!" on the intercom.

It's just what I've heard, but I do hope some of the aircrew will feel compelled to refute it.
@steveliddle558
Vulcan to the Sky Trust Trustee (although expressing my own views)
XR219

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Pringles on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 6:44 am

:grin: That's made my morning, thanks XR219 :clap:
If life gives you melons then you're probably dyslexic
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Pringles

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Bluebird Mike on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 6:55 am

It's nothing new that the big shots at the head of charities take big slices of money for their 'services', but, considering the constant begging and pleading (and veiled threats) for money over the years to keep 'the people's aircraft' flying, it definitely smacks of very poor moral form that quite so much of that donated money went straight into the pockets of a certain few people. However even if they were to be investigated, I'm sure there'd be an answer for absolutely everything...

The sheer arrogance with which the aircraft was retired was boggling- as if 'XH558' was some Holy Grail that would glow on the horizon and bring in thousands from all over, for ever more. Yet now we see the reality that just about everyone else saw coming years before- A.N.Other Vulcan left outside in the weather, pushed to one side at somewhere that doesn't really want it and can't allow people to see it move.

There's really no answer here...certain people have done very nicely out of it, and the airframe is trapped and WILL deteriorate. The End.
Bluebird Mike

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby disgruntled on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 8:12 am

I heard that a certain individual charged airshows high sums of money just to sit and commentate for them. Imagine that. Who would have thought that a professional would charge for his services and take money away from a charity. I doubt for one moment though that he'll provide the figures though would he.
disgruntled

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 9:01 am

disgruntled wrote:I heard that a certain individual charged airshows high sums of money just to sit and commentate for them. Imagine that. Who would have thought that a professional would charge for his services and take money away from a charity. I doubt for one moment though that he'll provide the figures though would he.


Yep, made many thousands of pounds, thank you.

But I wasn't still being paid the year after I stopped working for them.

Next?
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Dan O'Hagan

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby disgruntled on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 10:08 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
disgruntled wrote:I heard that a certain individual charged airshows high sums of money just to sit and commentate for them. Imagine that. Who would have thought that a professional would charge for his services and take money away from a charity. I doubt for one moment though that he'll provide the figures though would he.


Yep, made many thousands of pounds, thank you.

But I wasn't still being paid the year after I stopped working for them.

Next?


If it is as alleged i.e. £1000 per flight neither are they!
disgruntled

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 10:15 am

disgruntled wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:
disgruntled wrote:I heard that a certain individual charged airshows high sums of money just to sit and commentate for them. Imagine that. Who would have thought that a professional would charge for his services and take money away from a charity. I doubt for one moment though that he'll provide the figures though would he.


Yep, made many thousands of pounds, thank you.

But I wasn't still being paid the year after I stopped working for them.

Next?


If it is as alleged i.e. £1000 per flight neither are they!


As you clearly haven't read, or lack the wit to read the thread and would prefer to attack me, may I remind you:

The Trust had 19 full-time employees and 5 part-time employees (including 9 aircrew) as at 31 October 2016, plus a number of contractors and consultants.


Remind me how many flights XH558 made between 31 October 2015 and 31 October 2016?
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Dan O'Hagan

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby disgruntled on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 10:42 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
disgruntled wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:
disgruntled wrote:I heard that a certain individual charged airshows high sums of money just to sit and commentate for them. Imagine that. Who would have thought that a professional would charge for his services and take money away from a charity. I doubt for one moment though that he'll provide the figures though would he.


Yep, made many thousands of pounds, thank you.

But I wasn't still being paid the year after I stopped working for them.

Next?


If it is as alleged i.e. £1000 per flight neither are they!


As you clearly haven't read, or lack the wit to read the thread and would prefer to attack me, may I remind you:

The Trust had 19 full-time employees and 5 part-time employees (including 9 aircrew) as at 31 October 2016, plus a number of contractors and consultants.


Remind me how many flights XH558 made between 31 October 2015 and 31 October 2016?


I have read all the thread and skimmed through the financial report. I have plenty of wit thank you. And believe me it wasn't an attack just a reasonable observation.

As you clearly haven't the wit to remember what you posted I will remind you. You specifically referred to a previous post claiming that the salary was based on £1000 per flight and then made a supposition based on three crew and the number of flights per season, challenging one individual directly about the amount. At no point in either your post or the previous one you were using was there reference to the salary post flight. Maybe it is you that is witless and unable to read correctly, because surely no professional journalist would ever take things out of context just to fit their agenda?

My comparison with an airshow commentator is therfore valid and if you choose to believe it was aimed directly at you then "if the cap fits" then by all means. However at no point did I directly refer to you.

Frankly this is another example of a witless self centred individual jumping to wild conclusions and posting comments that would make the headline editor of the The Mail blush solely for the purposes of massaging their own ego
disgruntled

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby planenuttoo on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 12:58 pm

I suspect another thread about to disappear?
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planenuttoo

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Shyft87 on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 1:24 pm

disgruntled wrote:
My comparison with an airshow commentator is therfore valid and if you choose to believe it was aimed directly at you then "if the cap fits" then by all means. However at no point did I directly refer to you.

Frankly this is another example of a witless self centred individual jumping to wild conclusions and posting comments that would make the headline editor of the The Mail blush solely for the purposes of massaging their own ego





Oh come on now; a blind man could see that your remarks were a dig at DOH, and upon being called out on it, you shy away and attempt to pretend it was otherwise?

If you're going to insult people or have a pop, have the good grace to own it...
Shyft87

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby disgruntled on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 1:54 pm

[instagram][/instagram]
Shyft87 wrote:
disgruntled wrote:
My comparison with an airshow commentator is therfore valid and if you choose to believe it was aimed directly at you then "if the cap fits" then by all means. However at no point did I directly refer to you.

Frankly this is another example of a witless self centred individual jumping to wild conclusions and posting comments that would make the headline editor of the The Mail blush solely for the purposes of massaging their own ego





Oh come on now; a blind man could see that your remarks were a dig at DOH, and upon being called out on it, you shy away and attempt to pretend it was otherwise?

If you're going to insult people or have a pop, have the good grace to own it...


And yet I wasn't the one starting the insults. I pointed out an hypocrisy and was then insulted. Then when challenged Dan moved the goalposts trying to deflect facts that he was using unsubstantiated rumours and school boy maths and then apportioning this to something entirely different.To be clear he was using allegations about how much was paid per flight to magic up a total amount and then tacitly suggest that this was still being paid post flight.

I fail to see why people feel the need to defend the indefensible. Dan was trying to use allegations about one thing to promote his agenda and when he was called up on it resorted to his standard bully boy name calling tactics.
disgruntled

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 2:27 pm

disgruntled wrote:[instagram][/instagram]
Shyft87 wrote:
disgruntled wrote:
My comparison with an airshow commentator is therfore valid and if you choose to believe it was aimed directly at you then "if the cap fits" then by all means. However at no point did I directly refer to you.

Frankly this is another example of a witless self centred individual jumping to wild conclusions and posting comments that would make the headline editor of the The Mail blush solely for the purposes of massaging their own ego





Oh come on now; a blind man could see that your remarks were a dig at DOH, and upon being called out on it, you shy away and attempt to pretend it was otherwise?

If you're going to insult people or have a pop, have the good grace to own it...


And yet I wasn't the one starting the insults. I pointed out an hypocrisy and was then insulted. Then when challenged Dan moved the goalposts trying to deflect facts that he was using unsubstantiated rumours and school boy maths and then apportioning this to something entirely different.To be clear he was using allegations about how much was paid per flight to magic up a total amount and then tacitly suggest that this was still being paid post flight.

I fail to see why people feel the need to defend the indefensible. Dan was trying to use allegations about one thing to promote his agenda and when he was called up on it resorted to his standard bully boy name calling tactics.


What part of "they were paying aircrew AFTER the final flight" do you not understand?

It's there in black and white in the accounts.

Does it matter if it was £1,000 a day or 50p? The question has to be why on earth were they still paying aircrew - some of whom, if the figures and wording of the accounts are correct, were full-time at 31st October 2016? Over twelve months after the infernal thing landed for the last time.

But no, it's far more fun to try and pick my posts apart, isn't it?
User avatar
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby disgruntled on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 2:37 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
disgruntled wrote:[instagram][/instagram]
Shyft87 wrote:
disgruntled wrote:
My comparison with an airshow commentator is therfore valid and if you choose to believe it was aimed directly at you then "if the cap fits" then by all means. However at no point did I directly refer to you.

Frankly this is another example of a witless self centred individual jumping to wild conclusions and posting comments that would make the headline editor of the The Mail blush solely for the purposes of massaging their own ego





Oh come on now; a blind man could see that your remarks were a dig at DOH, and upon being called out on it, you shy away and attempt to pretend it was otherwise?

If you're going to insult people or have a pop, have the good grace to own it...


And yet I wasn't the one starting the insults. I pointed out an hypocrisy and was then insulted. Then when challenged Dan moved the goalposts trying to deflect facts that he was using unsubstantiated rumours and school boy maths and then apportioning this to something entirely different.To be clear he was using allegations about how much was paid per flight to magic up a total amount and then tacitly suggest that this was still being paid post flight.

I fail to see why people feel the need to defend the indefensible. Dan was trying to use allegations about one thing to promote his agenda and when he was called up on it resorted to his standard bully boy name calling tactics.


What part of "they were paying aircrew AFTER the final flight" do you not understand?

It's there in black and white in the accounts.

Does it matter if it was £1,000 a day or 50p? The question has to be why on earth were they still paying aircrew - some of whom, if the figures and wording of the accounts are correct, were full-time at 31st October 2016? Over twelve months after the infernal thing landed for the last time.

But no, it's far more fun to try and pick my posts apart, isn't it?


No it's not fun it's a point of clarity and fact Dan. The point that they appear to still be paying aircrew is not in dispute. There could be any number of valid reasons why the are and as many reasons why they shouldn't.

But you were inferring that they were being paid the same amount "per flight" and clouded it further by adding in the number of years that they were flying. Are you trying to deliberately cloud the discussion by coming up with fanciful "facts" that have no bearing?

If you are so professional and take such pains to point out others failings, mistakes and hypocrisy then you should be prepared to suffer the same scrutiny
disgruntled

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Domvickery on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 2:38 pm

Ok chaps, points made can we leave that there please.

If you want to carry it on please do so via PM
Free straws available to clutch at - PM me. Inventor of the baguette scale
Domvickery
UKAR Staff

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 2:41 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
bernarde wrote:I recall being told that each aircrew member was paid around £1k per flight. Maybe Bill could confirm of deny that one if required.


That's quite a figure, if true.

Imagine that, three aircrew per flight (assuming the AEO was paid the same), needing 300 people to donate a tenner just to satisfy the crew's financial demands. Extrapolate that to the number of flights in a season, multiplied by the number of display seasons.

I doubt Bill would be prepared to confirm that on a public forum, but it is the kind of question that needs to be addressed in the interests of clarity.


Hypothetical. Going by bernarde's quoted figure, and he's been right with his information more often than not.
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Dan O'Hagan

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby disgruntled on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 2:59 pm

One final answer if I may.

Yes you have added in bold to try to justify yourself Dan but the fact is you used "hypothetical" figures based on a per flight cost to tacitly infer that the aircrew were still being paid that amount. Otherwise why use these figures as they have absolutely no bearing on what the retained aircrew are still being paid as the "infernal thing" hasn't flown!

Question, cross examine and scrutinise by all means but play by the same rules that you expect everyone else to abide by.

I'll go back to being the quiet majority once more now. Apologies for the thread hijack everyone
disgruntled

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 3:05 pm

disgruntled wrote:One final answer if I may.

Yes you have added in bold to try to justify yourself Dan but the fact is you used "hypothetical" figures based on a per flight cost to tacitly infer that the aircrew were still being paid that amount. Otherwise why use these figures as they have absolutely no bearing on what the retained aircrew are still being paid as the "infernal thing" hasn't flown!

Question, cross examine and scrutinise by all means but play by the same rules that you expect everyone else to abide by.

I'll go back to being the quiet majority once more now. Apologies for the thread hijack everyone


Where on earth do you get it from that I said they're still being paid the alleged £1,000?

I referred to flights and flying seasons. Which ended in 2015. Aircrew remained on the payroll for another 12 months, in some cases full-time. No inference into how much they were paid, and what relation that was to bernarde's figure.
User avatar
Dan O'Hagan

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby disgruntled on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 3:18 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
disgruntled wrote:One final answer if I may.

Yes you have added in bold to try to justify yourself Dan but the fact is you used "hypothetical" figures based on a per flight cost to tacitly infer that the aircrew were still being paid that amount. Otherwise why use these figures as they have absolutely no bearing on what the retained aircrew are still being paid as the "infernal thing" hasn't flown!

Question, cross examine and scrutinise by all means but play by the same rules that you expect everyone else to abide by.

I'll go back to being the quiet majority once more now. Apologies for the thread hijack everyone


Where on earth do you get it from that I said they're still being paid the alleged £1,000?

I referred to flights and flying seasons. Which ended in 2015. Aircrew remained on the payroll for another 12 months, in some cases full-time. No inference into how much they were paid, and what relation that was to bernarde's figure.


tacit
ˈtasɪt/
adjective
understood or implied without being stated.
disgruntled

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Alanko on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 3:28 pm

How long until this thread goes to Brunty? I'm sure the VTTS forumites must be loving this discourse!
Alanko

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Georgeconna on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 3:46 pm

Anything not going to Brunty this month that you can argue about for a week?
Cheers

George

Zero shows for 2018 Giving in a Rest.
Georgeconna

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 5:52 pm

Regardless of how much who was paid when. What sits badly with me is people were taking salaries and expenses while the likes of Marshalls had to write off their debts. I also find it distasteful that the spares David Walton gave them are sold off - also likely to be used to pay wages. It's shameful, but sadly I think not unusual in many big charties. This behaviour/greed was distasteful when she was flying and there was plenty on money. But for it to carry on post flying when every penny should have been conserved to put a permanent roof over 558's head, is disgusting.
Xm657

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Gregg on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 6:15 pm

Alanko wrote:How long until this thread goes to Brunty? I'm sure the VTTS forumites must be loving this discourse!



Sod off! We don't want it..
Gregg

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