Where has XH558 thread gone?

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby speedbird2639 on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 6:16 pm

Xm657 wrote:Regardless of how much who was paid when. What sits badly with me is people were taking salaries and expenses while the likes of Marshalls had to write off their debts. I also find it distasteful that the spares David Walton gave them are sold off - also likely to be used to pay wages. It's shameful, but sadly I think not unusual in many big charties. This behaviour/greed was distasteful when she was flying and there was plenty on money. But for it to carry on post flying when every penny should have been conserved to put a permanent roof over 558's head, is disgusting.


^^This :clap:
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speedbird2639

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Reds Rolling on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 6:28 pm

disgruntled wrote:
And yet I wasn't the one starting the insults. I pointed out an hypocrisy and was then insulted. Then when challenged Dan moved the goalposts trying to deflect facts that he was using unsubstantiated rumours and school boy maths and then apportioning this to something entirely different.To be clear he was using allegations about how much was paid per flight to magic up a total amount and then tacitly suggest that this was still being paid post flight.

I fail to see why people feel the need to defend the indefensible. Dan was trying to use allegations about one thing to promote his agenda and when he was called up on it resorted to his standard bully boy name calling tactics.

His next ploy to try and undermine you will be to start saying and repeating that you work for VttS, and then he'll claim to have a source that gives him a 'name' of who you are.

Typical two bit journo tactics tbh, but you have to laugh at his desperation. :grin:
Reds Rolling

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby RAF4EVER on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 6:51 pm

Is disgruntled, Neverfuels new user name?
RAF4EVER

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby BillRamsey on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 7:59 pm

Dan/Gents, I thought I explained once. Only one of the (then) current Aircrew remained employed after February 2016. Period. None of the six who became redundant were paid anything after October 2015. Quite right, I will not discuss what we were paid when 558 was flying (any more than I expect most on here to use their real names or tell me their occupation and salary). I will say this, £1k per day is ludicrous. Also, we were paid a daily flying rate. Many of the sorties required days of (unpaid) planning and coordination - I guess the most complicated for me was probably what became called The Three Sisters - that took me the best part of two (unpaid) weeks to arrange - CAA/MAA/ RAF - you get the picture! The photochases, formations, tours etc all took a lot of unpaid time. So, whatever we were paid, I am happy we provided good value.

I hope this sheds a bit of light once more. I urge you to take a look at the People's Mosquito and get behind a project which is part of the future for our hobby if we all get behind it.

Bill Ramsey
BillRamsey

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Skymonster on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 8:17 pm

Can someone explain to me why anyone needs to be paid anything to look after XH558 now? XL426 seems to manage to survive and even be taxied at Southend without salaried employees. Likewise XM655 at Wellesbourne. It's not even that there are any large special events going on around XH558 that need full timers organising them anymore. I would have thought that now XH558 is of an equal - or even lesser - status than those other two Vulcans, it should be able to be looked after and taxied by unpaid volunteers.

OK, someone might need to be paid to come up with grandiose plans to house XH558 in its own hangar at DSA, but people giving money or buying merchandise should be told that their money is paying for those grandiose plans rather than for the upkeep of an aircraft that to all intents other groups manage to achieve on a shoestring.

Personally I would like to see the whole VTTS told to go away, and XH558 handed over to a group of volunteers who are sufficiently passionate to keep it in a similar manner and to a similar standard to XL626 and XM655.
Skymonster

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 8:18 pm

BillRamsey wrote:Dan/Gents, I thought I explained once. Only one of the (then) current Aircrew remained employed after February 2016. Period. None of the six who became redundant were paid anything after October 2015. Quite right, I will not discuss what we were paid when 558 was flying (any more than I expect most on here to use their real names or tell me their occupation and salary). I will say this, £1k per day is ludicrous. Also, we were paid a daily flying rate. Many of the sorties required days of (unpaid) planning and coordination - I guess the most complicated for me was probably what became called The Three Sisters - that took me the best part of two (unpaid) weeks to arrange - CAA/MAA/ RAF - you get the picture! The photochases, formations, tours etc all took a lot of unpaid time. So, whatever we were paid, I am happy we provided good value.

I hope this sheds a bit of light once more. I urge you to take a look at the People's Mosquito and get behind a project which is part of the future for our hobby if we all get behind it.

Bill Ramsey


The one retained will have been Martin Withers, one assumes.

Quite a big error to make on the accounts though, which quite clearly states:

The Trust had 19 full-time employees and 5 part-time employees (including 9 aircrew) as at 31 October 2016, plus a number of contractors and consultants.


How on earth do the official accounts, filed with the authorities, come up with NINE aircrew full/part-time at 31/10/2016?
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Dan O'Hagan

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Xm657 on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 8:29 pm

Thank you Mr Ramsay, you have restored some faith in humanity as far as I'm concerned. I don't begrudge anyone getting paid for their time for this project particularly when it yields results: such as the flying or getting a hangar actually built. The fact you gave so much of your time for free is fantastic to hear. What is frustrating to hear is how much money seems to have gone down the drain with nothing to show for it. I'm sure £750K would have helped the Mosquito project enormously - rather than basically having nothing to show for it now.
Xm657

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby BillRamsey on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 8:31 pm

Dan, go back a page or so! I said the Chief Pilot was retained. Everyone knows that was Martin. I also said I can't understand how the figure of nine Aircrew still employed came about, so no disagreement there. I honestly believe it was a typo or similar error of proof reading. Sadly it makes a good conspiracy theory to think otherwise.

Bill
BillRamsey

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby MicrolightDriver on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 8:50 pm

Hopefully some positive news for XH558 on Friday, and at least some new information to save people poring over year-old data which describes a situation and org. structure greatly changed in the interim.
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MicrolightDriver

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby speedbird2639 on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 8:56 pm

Is disgruntled, Neverfuels new user name?


That was my immediate thought as well!
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speedbird2639

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Saleemrama on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 8:57 pm

RAF4EVER wrote:Is disgruntled, Neverfuels new user name?


:lmao: :lmao:

I miss those arguments :dizzy: :dunno: :wall:

You may be right RAF4EVER! Maybe this thread is about to disappear quickly too?
Look on the bright side - because you don't need a torch to do it!

Sal
Saleemrama

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby RAF4EVER on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 9:02 pm

I hope not. :smile: :grin: :lol: :biggrin:
RAF4EVER

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Saleemrama on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 9:12 pm

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
BillRamsey wrote:Dan/Gents, I thought I explained once. Only one of the (then) current Aircrew remained employed after February 2016. Period. None of the six who became redundant were paid anything after October 2015. Quite right, I will not discuss what we were paid when 558 was flying (any more than I expect most on here to use their real names or tell me their occupation and salary). I will say this, £1k per day is ludicrous. Also, we were paid a daily flying rate. Many of the sorties required days of (unpaid) planning and coordination - I guess the most complicated for me was probably what became called The Three Sisters - that took me the best part of two (unpaid) weeks to arrange - CAA/MAA/ RAF - you get the picture! The photochases, formations, tours etc all took a lot of unpaid time. So, whatever we were paid, I am happy we provided good value.

I hope this sheds a bit of light once more. I urge you to take a look at the People's Mosquito and get behind a project which is part of the future for our hobby if we all get behind it.

Bill Ramsey

The one retained will have been Martin Withers, one assumes.

Quite a big error to make on the accounts though, which quite clearly states:

The Trust had 19 full-time employees and 5 part-time employees (including 9 aircrew) as at 31 October 2016, plus a number of contractors and consultants.


How on earth do the official accounts, filed with the authorities, come up with NINE aircrew full/part-time at 31/10/2016?


Accountants do double entry bookkeeping- so to the untrained eye it can always sound like gobbledygook- so it could be 19 + 5 + 9 or 19 + 5 which includes the 9 aircrew, it's pretty daft arguing about it though!
Look on the bright side - because you don't need a torch to do it!

Sal
Saleemrama

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby 106500 on Mon 11 Sep 2017, 10:17 pm

I have to say this thread is absolutely compulsive reading and it's what sets UKAR apart from the rest - it's what forums should be all about. Please don't delete, at least yet! :clap:
106500

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Bluebird Mike on Tue 12 Sep 2017, 6:20 am

The circular arguing between individuals can get tiresome, but, I think it's imperative that somewhere has the balls to let VTTS be publicly questioned and kept to account (do your own jokes) in this manner- so, I say yay for UKAR. :clap:
Bluebird Mike

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Tue 12 Sep 2017, 7:52 am

Bluebird Mike wrote:The circular arguing between individuals can get tiresome, but, I think it's imperative that somewhere has the balls to let VTTS be publicly questioned and kept to account (do your own jokes) in this manner- so, I say yay for UKAR. :clap:


Indeed. Thanks to UKAR, a lot of what was previously conjecture and rumour is now important public knowledge and out in the public domain. And many untruths have been cleared up and put to bed.

Trolls like Neverfuel and several other suspiciously anonymous accounts try to manipulate the thread(s), but UKAR is the only forum which has consistently held VTTS' feet to the fire.
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Dan O'Hagan

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby disgruntled on Tue 12 Sep 2017, 8:17 am

speedbird2639 wrote:
Is disgruntled, Neverfuels new user name?


That was my immediate thought as well!


Pathetic.

No this is an individual that welcomes cross examination and difficult questions but expects the "feet to the fire" to be expected on both sides.

In true Dan style I will go over the points very slowly one last time.

1) The present focus of discussion was about the most recent accounts and the amount of money spent on aircrew.

2) A random post suggesting a figure PER FLIGHT was then put up. Whilst this may be true or not it had absolutely no relevance to the current topic being debated.

3) Dan jumped on this and then hypothesised about how much money that was. Now as I mentioned this had absolutely no relevance to the current ongoing discussion about the most recent accounts so Dan was either
a) lacking in the social skills needed to keep up with the discussion and make a valid point.
b) just so egotistical that he felt he needed to be connected to further "scandal"

Or

c) deliberately using the opportunity to use irrelevant "facts" to make wild hypotheses in an attempt to cloud the issue or mislead the readers. As I said - tacitly inferring that that amount was still being paid.

I have no idea who neverfuels is but I did end up feeling sorry for him and the way he was bullied. The immediate reaction for Dan and some others is to assume that anyone who pulls him up on a point is the guardian angel of VttS.

What I am however is a serviceman with 28 years experience who's primary role is public duties and engagement. I'll come on to comments in another post about how "embarrassing" the RAFAT are because someone dared to have a baby in the relevant thread. If I can be bothered
disgruntled

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 12 Sep 2017, 9:08 am

Thread to be locked/deleted in 5.....4.....3....2....1....
:snack:
Unofficial forum brauer und winzer
Not an enthusiast or a spotter
trollpikken fforwm swyddogol
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Brevet Cable

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Bluebird Mike on Tue 12 Sep 2017, 9:11 am

No need to lock a thread because of one individual. 'disgruntled' and Dan were asked to take it private, yet 'disgruntled' is carrying the specific argument on- so it is the user who needs moderating, not the whole thread.
Bluebird Mike

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby disgruntled on Tue 12 Sep 2017, 9:18 am

Umm.. people made allegations about me and Dan continued his argument. Surely I have the right to reply even if it is uncomfortable reading for Dan's harem.

I am making a valid point. Question, scrunitise, cross examine by all means but do not use The Mail tactics to try to make your points otherwise you have no argument
disgruntled

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Brevet Cable on Tue 12 Sep 2017, 9:37 am

Bluebird Mike wrote:No need to lock a thread because of one individual. 'disgruntled' and Dan were asked to take it private, yet 'disgruntled' is carrying the specific argument on- so it is the user who needs moderating, not the whole thread.

The problem is that the last topic was holed because of the continuing handbagging even though those involved were told to desist.
This topic is now going the same way, despite Dom's intervention.
And it's not just 'disgruntled'.
It's almost as if there are people out there who want to get it closed down.
Unofficial forum brauer und winzer
Not an enthusiast or a spotter
trollpikken fforwm swyddogol
User avatar
Brevet Cable

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Saleemrama on Tue 12 Sep 2017, 9:41 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
Bluebird Mike wrote:The circular arguing between individuals can get tiresome, but, I think it's imperative that somewhere has the balls to let VTTS be publicly questioned and kept to account (do your own jokes) in this manner- so, I say yay for UKAR. :clap:


Indeed. Thanks to UKAR, a lot of what was previously conjecture and rumour is now important public knowledge and out in the public domain. And many untruths have been cleared up and put to bed.

Trolls like Neverfuel and several other suspiciously anonymous accounts try to manipulate the thread(s), but UKAR is the only forum which has consistently held VTTS' feet to the fire.

You have to admit that you do like an argument, recently Neverfuel, then the same accusations about Reds Rolling now Disgruntled. Same old method time after time. I thought you were the one keeping a tally on the numbers of people who were still employed according to the accounts - it seems that all of them are on here according to you :lmao:
Look on the bright side - because you don't need a torch to do it!

Sal
Saleemrama

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Dan O'Hagan on Tue 12 Sep 2017, 10:18 am

"Saleemrama":

Joined:Fri 11 Aug 2017, 2:40 pm


Most active topic:Where has XH558 thread gone?
(7 Posts / 87.50% of user’s posts)


"Neverfuel":

Last visited:Sun 13 Aug 2017, 3:42 pm


:whistle: :wave:
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Dan O'Hagan

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Bluebird Mike on Tue 12 Sep 2017, 10:24 am

disgruntled wrote:Umm.. people made allegations about me and Dan continued his argument. Surely I have the right to reply even if it is uncomfortable reading for Dan's harem.

I am making a valid point. Question, scrunitise, cross examine by all means but do not use The Mail tactics to try to make your points otherwise you have no argument


Calmly making valid points is one thing, making comments like 'Dan's harem' is another; you can't do that and then criticize others.
Bluebird Mike

Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Postby Neverfuel on Tue 12 Sep 2017, 10:38 am

Dan O'Hagan wrote:"Saleemrama":

Joined:Fri 11 Aug 2017, 2:40 pm


Most active topic:Where has XH558 thread gone?
(7 Posts / 87.50% of user’s posts)


"Neverfuel":

Last visited:Sun 13 Aug 2017, 3:42 pm


:whistle: :wave:

:dizzy:

Just because I have not logged in doesn't mean I have stopped reading. Just bored of the attacks. I will be back when something worthy of note happens. I'll let you get this thread banned all by yourself, you are doing a great job of it without anyone's help! :snack:
Neverfuel

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