Where has XH558 thread gone?

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pbeardmore
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by pbeardmore »

Is there not a legal obligation for the accounts to be accurate? Therfore, the value of fixed assests should not be picked from the air. It would not be too hard to get an inidependant valuation. The board clearly have a vested interest in having the valuation as high as possible.
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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

pbeardmore wrote:Is there not a legal obligation for the accounts to be accurate? Therfore, the value of fixed assests should not be picked from the air. It would not be too hard to get an inidependant valuation. The board clearly have a vested interest in having the valuation as high as possible.


XH558 surely now has a negative value, other than for scrap. Dismantling it and moving it from its tomb at Doncaster would cost tens, probably hundreds of thousands for anyone insane enough to want to try it.

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pbeardmore
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by pbeardmore »

but Im referrirng to its market value at the time the accounts were signed off. There must be rules in place otherwise any board of directors can just inflate the value of their fixed assets to boost the value of the organisation. Would not the accountants have to review the valuations?

Re the present value, this is crucial as it effectively decides if the charity is in the red of the black re its financial position at present or in the future. I would agree that the value at present is not that great.

A quick tour of Google shows that misrepresenting the value of assets can be a serious issue.
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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

It's no different to what they've done every year.
From memory, in previous years it was always the case that the valuation of XH558 just happened to match the charge that HLF had over it.

The problem now is that whereas in previous years one of the justifications for the valuation being so high was that it was the only Vulcan still flying....that's no longer the case now.
It would be interesting to see how the valuation of XH558 compares to that of XL426 & XM655.

As for who did the valuation, I don't think it's any different from how other aircraft preservation trusts do it ( and presumably the same is true for preservation trusts for ships, boats, trains, etc. )
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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

What is especially distasteful about the whole sordid mess is just how little public consultation there has ever been.

Where was the public consultation/discussion/mandate over:

* Dumping it at Doncaster.

* The ludicrous initial pursuit of ETNA (did anyone ever think that might remotely work out?).

* The purchase of another aircraft requiring years of restoration and hundreds of thousands of pounds.

XH558 has been the "People's Aircraft" allegedly, but the above suggests the only input that's ever been welcome from the "People" has been cash in buckets, standing orders and direct debits.

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pbeardmore
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by pbeardmore »

common sense would tell you that its value plummets on the day it becomes a static exhibit rather than flying. A phone call to owners of similar static Vulcans/Victors etc would surely be the best way to value the airframe. Again, diligent trustees would want to spend even 10 mins ensuring that fixed assets were valued correctly.

"Now that the airframe is not airworthy, how do we correctly assess it's current value" Thats all that has to be done by the trustees.
Last edited by pbeardmore on Thu 14 Sep 2017, 10:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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austinp
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by austinp »

I emailed Dr Flemming a few weeks ago. Here is his reply:-





As you can see, it is full of information, addressing everyone's concerns.

To me, VTTS is a dead entity, it should have rebranded when Vulcan became ground-locked.

The "People's Plane" is no longer accessible by The People. I don't think that will change, as long as Flemming is at the helm...

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

austinp wrote:I emailed Dr Flemming a few weeks ago. Here is his reply:-

Nothing showing.

Oh, and if you contacted a Dr Flemming he wouldn't have a clue what you're on about......the person you'd want to contact is Dr Pleming
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by LN Strike Eagle »

The airframe is worth peanuts now. It's stuck at Doncaster, and any attempt to move it would cost several times the cost of acquiring the air frame. As I said before, any new owner then has to make good the awful decision to dump it at a commercial airport, and that's the crux of the problem - it's in the wrong place, and it's stuck there for good.
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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

pbeardmore wrote:common sense would tell you that its value plummets on the day it becomes a static exhibit rather than flying. A phone call to owners of similar static Vulcans/Victors etc would surely be the best way to value the airframe. Again, diligent trustees would want to spend even 10 mins ensuring that fixed assets were valued correctly.
"Now that the airframe is not airworthy, how do we correctly assess it's current value" Thats all that has to be done by the trustees.


In answer to my earlier post about the valuation of the other Vulcans....
XL426's most recent accounts haven't been published by the HLF yet, but the 2015 ones are on there ( http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/DocumentList.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=1058111&SubsidiaryNumber=0&DocType=AccountList )
From them :
The net assets of the charity as at 31 December 2015 were £41,134 (2014: £30,436). The charity's fixed assets comprise an Avro Vulcan B2 aircraft at London Southend Airport and its associated ground equipment and spare parts, four container stores and their fixtures and fittings, and two trailers.
The net book value of these assets as at 31 December was £3,947 (2014: £1,844).


Can't find XM655 on the CC's website.....is it a registered charity ?
Last edited by Brevet Cable on Thu 14 Sep 2017, 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by pbeardmore »

Just looked up that the VRT at 31 Dec 2015 valued the airframe plus tools and spares at a total of £4,000 (see page 8)

http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Ac ... 31_E_C.pdf

Brevet you beat me to it,
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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

pbeardmore wrote:Just looked up that the VRT at 31 Dec 2015 valued the airframe plus tools and spares at a total of £4,000 (see page 8)

http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Ac ... 31_E_C.pdf

Brevet you beat me to it,


Wow.

How can VTTS come up with such a figure as they have done? In their filed accounts? :shock:

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starbuck
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by starbuck »

Brevet Cable wrote:
austinp wrote:I emailed Dr Flemming a few weeks ago. Here is his reply:-

Nothing showing.

Oh, and if you contacted a Dr Flemming he wouldn't have a clue what you're on about......the person you'd want to contact is Dr Pleming


To be fair he's probably too busy writing his next Basildon Bond novel :grin:

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

LN Strike Eagle wrote:The airframe is worth peanuts now.

Before anyone else posts it....
Scrap aluminium's about £750/Ton, scrap steel is about £100/Ton -- how much would a Vulcan amount to ?
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pbeardmore
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by pbeardmore »

Would the airframe not have to be insured? And the insureres would have to put a value on it (as they do with our cars?) so either it is not insured: insured for the much higher value or insured for a lower value as agreed by the insurers. Insurers can be a decent guide as to the market value , even a rough guide.

So lets be clear, are we saying that XH558 has been formally valued and signed off by the accountants at around 100 times the value of similar airframes ? Im trying to get my head aorund this.
Last edited by pbeardmore on Thu 14 Sep 2017, 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by NAM Updater »

In terms of independent valuations, this Vulcan sale from 2005 may act as a 'guide'!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lanc ... 181657.stm
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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

Newts..........

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vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
pbeardmore wrote:Just looked up that the VRT at 31 Dec 2015 valued the airframe plus tools and spares at a total of £4,000 (see page 8)

http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Ac ... 31_E_C.pdf

Brevet you beat me to it,


Wow.

How can VTTS come up with such a figure as they have done? In their filed accounts? :shock:

You notice the figure is roughly the same as the yearly wage bill. :grin:

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

pbeardmore wrote:Would the airframe not have to be insured? And the insureres would have to put a value on it (as they do with our cars?) so either it is not insured: insured for the much higher value or insured for a lower value as agreed by the insurers. Insurers can be a decent guide as to the market value , even a rough guide.

Yes and no.
Yes, it would have to be insured.
No, the insurers wouldn't be the ones to value it....the car comparison would be if you were insuring a car on an 'agreed value' policy ( usually for rare or classic cars ) - the owner says how much the car is worth then the insurance company decides how much they'll charge you to insure it for that value.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by austinp »

Brevet Cable wrote:
austinp wrote:I emailed Dr Flemming a few weeks ago. Here is his reply:-

Nothing showing.

Oh, and if you contacted a Dr Flemming he wouldn't have a clue what you're on about......the person you'd want to contact is Dr Pleming



Blast, knew I shouldn't have relied on my memory :-S

Dr Pleming's reply is clearly listed...

...I'll help out shall I. He didn't respond. I didn't expect him to.

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

NAM Updater wrote:In terms of independent valuations, this Vulcan sale from 2005 may act as a 'guide'!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lanc ... 181657.stm

The difference being that XH558 is in good condition, compared to XL391 which was a heap of scrap.
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austinp
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by austinp »

starbuck wrote:
Brevet Cable wrote:
austinp wrote:I emailed Dr Flemming a few weeks ago. Here is his reply:-

Nothing showing.

Oh, and if you contacted a Dr Flemming he wouldn't have a clue what you're on about......the person you'd want to contact is Dr Pleming


To be fair he's probably too busy writing his next Basildon Bond novel :grin:



Nah, he's booked Dr Pleming in for colonic irrigation.

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

austinp wrote:He didn't respond. I didn't expect him to.

Well, as has been posted both here and on the VTTS forum, you - or anyone else interested enough - could always make an FOI request
https://www.gov.uk/make-a-freedom-of-information-request/how-to-make-an-foi-request
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vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

Brevet Cable wrote:
LN Strike Eagle wrote:The airframe is worth peanuts now.

Before anyone else posts it....
Scrap aluminium's about £750/Ton, scrap steel is about £100/Ton -- how much would a Vulcan amount to ?

So say 20 tonnes in aluminium. The cost of scrapping it and sorting the metals would probably yield very little once
The JCB hire, cost of driver, plus lorries to transport etc etc. The £750 per tonne is price for clean aluminium
Weighed in @ the scales @ the scrap yard.

So if the scrap metals are worth 30k, the cost taken off for recovering it is more like 4k.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by capercaillie »

I didn't realise we had so much expertise in vintage aircraft valuations on the forum. :shock:

So a non flying Spitfire is worth about £1,000, as its value is scrap only based on these assumptions? :wall:
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