Where has XH558 thread gone?

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LN Strike Eagle
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by LN Strike Eagle »

capercaillie wrote:I didn't realise we had so much expertise in vintage aircraft valuations on the forum. :shock:

So a non flying Spitfire is worth about £1,000, as its value is scrap only based on these assumptions? :wall:

Spitfires are not only more desirable, but comparatively easy and cheap to take apart and relocate.

The question has been posed before - what would you do with it if you bought XH558?
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by pbeardmore »

One Vulcan airframe has been officially valued at one figure, one at another figure and they are nowhere near each other. We are just trying to work out the reality of the situation.

Scrap value is at least a base line figure because it can always go for that. So the next question re the airframe is who will pay more than scrap value and one what basis would they pay more (given all of the overheads linked to ownership)
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

capercaillie wrote:I didn't realise we had so much expertise in vintage aircraft valuations on the forum. :shock:

So a non flying Spitfire is worth about £1,000, as its value is scrap only based on these assumptions? :wall:

Would you buy a Gold ring for 20k if there was only 1k of Gold in it.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

capercaillie wrote:I didn't realise we had so much expertise in vintage aircraft valuations on the forum. :shock:

So a non flying Spitfire is worth about £1,000, as its value is scrap only based on these assumptions? :wall:

Nope.....it's because of the usual calls from some on here to chop XH558 up for scrap.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

LN Strike Eagle wrote:Spitfires are not only more desirable, but comparatively easy and cheap to take apart and relocate.

And it's relatively easy to get a new one built.....err, sorry, I mean 'restore one from a dataplate' :lol:
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by capercaillie »

LN Strike Eagle wrote:
capercaillie wrote:I didn't realise we had so much expertise in vintage aircraft valuations on the forum. :shock:

So a non flying Spitfire is worth about £1,000, as its value is scrap only based on these assumptions? :wall:

Spitfires are not only more desirable, but comparatively easy and cheap to take apart and relocate.

The question has been posed before - what would you do with it if you bought XH558?


But that has nothing to do with the valuation of an asset on a balance sheet. Its either going to be on a cost price when acquired or an estimate placed by an independent valuer less any depreciation attributed on a straight line or reducing balance basis. The way the assets are depreciated is usually included in the notes to the accounts. Its not a case of guessing how much it may be worth.

You/me/we/whoever may not agree with the valuation, but honestly, its got nothing to do with us anyway.

As for its desirability, from an ownership point of view you may be right, from a follower's point of view, judging by the airshow sellouts maybe not? :dunno:
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by capercaillie »

vulcan558 wrote:
capercaillie wrote:I didn't realise we had so much expertise in vintage aircraft valuations on the forum. :shock:

So a non flying Spitfire is worth about £1,000, as its value is scrap only based on these assumptions? :wall:

Would you buy a Gold ring for 20k if there was only 1k of Gold in it.


Would you buy a Spitfire for £20K, with only £1K value of metal in it? :whistle:
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

capercaillie wrote:
vulcan558 wrote:
capercaillie wrote:I didn't realise we had so much expertise in vintage aircraft valuations on the forum. :shock:

So a non flying Spitfire is worth about £1,000, as its value is scrap only based on these assumptions? :wall:

Would you buy a Gold ring for 20k if there was only 1k of Gold in it.


Would you buy a Spitfire for £20K, with only £1K value of metal in it? :whistle:

No, not a great spitfire fan, more Hurricane myself, and less metal in those.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by sooty655 »

Brevet Cable wrote:Can't find XM655 on the CC's website.....is it a registered charity ?


No, XM655MaPS is a voluntary non-profit society which does not own the airframe and is not registered as a charity. XM655 is privately owned by Wellesbourne Airfield.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by NAM Updater »

Brevet Cable wrote:
NAM Updater wrote:In terms of independent valuations, this Vulcan sale from 2005 may act as a 'guide'!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lanc ... 181657.stm

The difference being that XH558 is in good condition, compared to XL391 which was a heap of scrap.

Quite correct!

That said, and overpriced or not, nevertheless it is a figure in the public domain for what someone paid for a Vulcan. As such it is a starting point for any independent valuation of other Vulcans; and it has been used as such.

Some of the other weblinks on that BBC site also give an insight into the 'complex' world of Vulcan valuations, EBAY purchases etc. :smile:
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

Sooty655,
:up:

Interestingly, I wondered about the Victors ( being the same era ) and looked them up on the CC's website....only the YAM is listed.
( http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/DocumentList.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=516766&SubsidiaryNumber=0&DocType=AccountList )

For comparison with VTST.....

YAM has a total of 112 staff, but only 5 of those are full-time, 5 are part-time & 3 are contractors....the rest are unpaid volunteers ( so a multi-aircraft operational museum operates with less than half the number of paid employees VTST had )
The wages for those employees total just short of £318k ...... so pretty much comparable with VTST ( be interesting to see the comparison next year, when they'll have roughly the same number of employees )

As for the airframes :
The trustees consider that obtaining valuations for the vast majority of the historic aircraft and other items that are exhibited in the museum would involve disproportionate cost; furthermore, given the specialist nature of the assets and the absence of comparable market values it is considered that conventional valuation approaches may in any event lack sufficient reliability.
As such, the charity does not recognise heritage assets on its balance sheet, except to the extent that there have been recent acquisitions where an exhibit or artefact has been purchased, in which case the asset is initially included at cost and is subsequently depreciated.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by pbeardmore »

So one charity does not recognise the airframes as assets within their accounts and another charity gives one airframe a value in the hundreds of thousands of pounds :dizzy:

They cant both be right
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by capercaillie »

pbeardmore wrote:So one charity does not recognise the airframes as assets within their accounts and another charity gives one airframe a value in the hundreds of thousands of pounds :dizzy:

They cant both be right


Yes they can, its just how their accounts are presented. Its entirely up to someone reading them how they wish to interpret them.

If one company has been gifted an asset, it might not be included at a valuation on a balance sheet, another company may have bought exactly the same type of asset at a cost of one million pounds which would show on the balance sheet.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by ianf »

Brevet The Victor at YAM isn't owned by the museum. It is privately Owned by Andre Tempest. We do get assistance from the museum, but we still have to fund raise to get major tasks done such as her repaints. Our team are all volunteers. As to values of air frames, it is a subjective thing. I can see why both have gone different routes.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

:up:
To be honest, I couldn't remember if it was part of YAM or just based there. :oops:

I can understand YAM not doing individual valuations for their airframes due to the costs involved.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by NAM Updater »

Whilst it's going slightly off topic, it might also be interesting to note the following.

In NAM's case as well as meeting its SORP obligations, individual valuations were requested by the insurers. Furthermore any museum that has American aircraft on loan from the USAFM (F100, T33, Mystere etc.) has to insure for the value stipulated in the individual loan agreements; these are reviewed/updated annually.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

We have had this valuation discussion before! 558 is of course the Vulcan in the best condition and most famous which must raise her value, but on the downside she has a charge of currently £427K to the HLF, which likely reduces her appeal to potential buyers so pushes the valuation down. Currently being standed at an airport where she doesn't appear to be allowed to taxi also reduces her appeal perhaps. I really don't see how a value could be placed on her given all the variables. Would anyone even want to buy her as it would only be the start of a long term financial comittment.

I think if she ever changes ownership her sale value will be zero or a notional £1, with the new custodian taking on the responsibility of looking after her and making her accessible. Afterall David Walton gifted 558 to the Trust as far as I'm aware so she was valued at nothing last time she changed hands.

However if things turn ugly and administrators are brought in following a collapse of the VttST it may well be down to scrap value. The precedent we can look at is 426 and 655 which were both abandoned at airports when their owner could not progress his grand plans. They both became property of the airport in leui of unpaid parking fees*. Fortunately in both cases the airport allowed them to stay and a voluntary group to look after them appeared. It's possible the same might happen at Doncaster I would have thought.

* Southend was slightly different as the VRT actually own 426 having paid the parking fees, but the airport have been very generous with reasonable rents over the years since. 655 is still owned by the airfield owners. Correct me if I'm wrong!

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by pbeardmore »

Is there anyone on the forum who thinks that the valuation according to the official accounts is in the right ball park?
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by aviodromefriend »

Xm657 wrote:558 is of course the Vulcan in the best condition and most famous
XM607...
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

aviodromefriend wrote:
Xm657 wrote:558 is of course the Vulcan in the best condition and most famous
XM607...


Not amongst the general public.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by CJS »

For the vast majority of the general public, 558 is the only Vulcan they'd be able to name, let alone the most famous.

Surely the real value of something is only what someone would be willing to pay for it? If a painting is valued at £3 million, that's what it would be expected to fetch at auction, my car is probably worth about £3500 because that's what I'd get for it if I sold it. I just moved house and the valuation on both the one I sold and the one I bought was pretty accurate based on what we got for one and paid for the other.

Based on that, I'd say 558 isn't worth very much at all. Who would buy her now? She is, to all intents and porpoises (my sic) stuck where she is for the rest of her days and seems to still be costing a fortune without actually really doing anything.

I can't imagine anyone else taking her on, which for anything else - including a business or charity - would make it worthless.

I'm not a financial expert or businessman, but that's how it seems to me.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by sooty655 »

Xm657 wrote:558 is of course the Vulcan in the best condition .......


That depends what you want to do with it. It is certainly the Vulcan in the best flying condition, but not as a museum piece. The top deck has modern flying instruments, and the rear cockpit is just a sheet or two of matt black aluminium. There is no H2S scanner or ECM equipment installed. Anyone trying to sell visits to XH558 as an authentic experience of a service Vulcan would be pushing the boundaries of the trade descriptions act. Most of the museum Vulcans are far more complete, and (for example) XM655 shows off most of the interesting bits pretty well every weekend. Add to that the access problems of a major airport, and XH558 seems to me to only be attractive as scrap. :sad:

Xm657 wrote:655 is still owned by the airfield owners. Correct me if I'm wrong!


You are correct.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

sooty655 wrote:
Xm657 wrote:558 is of course the Vulcan in the best condition .......


That depends what you want to do with it. It is certainly the Vulcan in the best flying condition, but not as a museum piece. The top deck has modern flying instruments, and the rear cockpit is just a sheet or two of matt black aluminium. There is no H2S scanner or ECM equipment installed. Anyone trying to sell visits to XH558 as an authentic experience of a service Vulcan would be pushing the boundaries of the trade descriptions act. Most of the museum Vulcans are far more complete, and (for example) XM655 shows off most of the interesting bits pretty well every weekend. Add to that the access problems of a major airport, and XH558 seems to me to only be attractive as scrap. :sad:

Xm657 wrote:655 is still owned by the airfield owners. Correct me if I'm wrong!


You are correct.


Absolutely right. XH558 was just a show-pony in the state VTTS flew it. Not representative of a service Vulcan in any way.

Cut it up, the game is over. Cut it up as a grim, stark epitaph to VTTS and as a lesson to any other groups planning on funding salaries and pensions out of a one aeroplane museum that's not open to the public.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by capercaillie »

Jesus C Dan, play another record.

That'll teach those scoundrels, destroy a perfectly good aircraft to spite them :tongue2:

Unfortunately others are right on here, you just seem to be posting barbed quotes now just to inspire Jeremy Kyle reactions or Daily Mail aggrieved readers' replies, while all the time saying yourself how the standards on the forum have slipped. Is it deliberate? :dunno:
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Bluebird Mike »

sooty655 wrote:Anyone trying to sell visits to XH558 as an authentic experience of a service Vulcan would be pushing the boundaries of the trade descriptions act.


'It looks like a Vulcan and sounds like a Vulcan, but it ain't a Vulcan'. That's a direct quote to me, from Andrew Edmondson, while stood under the thing at Doncaster a few years back.

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