Where has XH558 thread gone?

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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

Xm657 wrote:Much as you'd like this thread to go away RR, it is bringing up valid and important points and holding VttTS to account, and why not: they spend public money and are custodians of a much loved "people's" aircraft, so should be prepared to justify their actions and take criticism. If you don't like what you read here, you have the rest of the internet to enjoy!

It is good to hear the planning permission has finally gone in and the dream is still alive, but a hell of a long way to go yet. Hopefully the VttTS can take some constructive criticism and slash their wage bill to near zero, or I'm afraid if planning permission is granted it will be all academic anyway as there will be nothing to pay the rent with.

Interesting what vulcan558 says above regarding not paying Marshalls and being arrogant to RR, which possibly led to the withdrawal of technical support. Is this just your opinion or do have any even anecdotal evidence of this? If it is true that VttTS mismanaged the relationship with the OEMs towards the end which led to a premature end to flying, that really is poor and massively disappointing. I do recall Mr Pleming saying 558 had between two and seven years flying hours left in her if the OEM support had been there. With regard to further flying taking place, I think a winter dormant outdoors, will make that mountain even higher, not that I personally believe its even possible anyway. And don't forget Roy Jacobsen got nowhere trying to register 655 and 426 with the FAA in the 80s, so attractive as it might seem, going to the US isn't a viable way to fly her either.


An excellent post.

Interesting to see how Reds Rolling and Neverfuel are desperate to shut down any debate or scrutiny.

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

Xm657 wrote:Interesting what vulcan558 says above regarding not paying Marshalls and being arrogant to RR, which possibly led to the withdrawal of technical support. Is this just your opinion or do have any even anecdotal evidence of this?
Can't speak for the RR reference, but the fact that Marshalls didn't get paid has been in every set of accounts they furnished to the CC.
As it says in this year's ones :
Income in the comparative period included £1,291,970, being the write off of the Marshall Aerospace creditor.
Marshall Aerospace was one of the Trust’s major creditors, who agreed to a deferred payment to cover all amounts due to them at the end of November 2007.
The agreement stated that after the aircraft is finally grounded any remaining amounts due to Marshall Aerospace will be deemed to have been written off.
Given that the Vulcan was grounded in October 2015 the creditor was written off in the 2015 year end accounts accordingly.
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106500
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by 106500 »

I must admit that the first time I seen a reference alluding to the premature withdrawal by OEMs (unless I've missed something?). Especially alarming if this was the case through poor relations with VTTS and that a significant period of further flight may have otherwise been possible? :sad:

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MicrolightDriver
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

What should we take from the fact we've never heard anything of the kind discussed before? in all that time....with all that's happened...with all these people 'in the know'?

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

Xm657 wrote:And don't forget Roy Jacobsen got nowhere trying to register 655 and 426 with the FAA in the 80s, so attractive as it might seem, going to the US isn't a viable way to fly her either.

That was thirty or more years ago, though.
Things change a lot over that time period and from what I recall from another forum ( PPRuNe, unless I'm mistaken ) the FAA's attitude has changed.
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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

106500 wrote:I must admit that the first time I seen a reference alluding to the premature withdrawal by OEMs (unless I've missed something?). Especially alarming if this was the case through poor relations with VTTS and that a significant period of further flight may have otherwise been possible? :sad:

It was commented upon in the now-deceased topic ( and possibly it's predecessor too )....probably got lost in all the shash, though.
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MicrolightDriver
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

Brevet Cable wrote:
106500 wrote:I must admit that the first time I seen a reference alluding to the premature withdrawal by OEMs (unless I've missed something?). Especially alarming if this was the case through poor relations with VTTS and that a significant period of further flight may have otherwise been possible? :sad:

It was commented upon in the now-deceased topic ( and possibly it's predecessor too )....probably got lost in all the shash, though.


Have to say I don't remember that one. But anyway, what was the conclusion of the 'discussion'?

Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

Well indeed I hadnt heard that before and was interested to hear if vulcan558 could eleborate. Indeed Roy Jocobsen's efforts were a long time ago but I would have though things would have only got harder since. I did read somewhere that XM605 at Castle Air Musuem was in excellent condition and had briefly been considered as a return to flight project but it never got anywhere.

RR is never going to make spares for Olympus engines ever again so all we could ever have had is a few more years. A Vulcan is sadly never going to be like the Lancaster and fly on forever.

I'd love to see if there is ever a preserved and taxiable B52 preserved in the US. There are plenty of D and G models all round the country - all fairly complete with engines - but none of them is capable of running. We will have a long wait to see if any H models go into private hands! We are actually very lucky to have taxiable Vulcans and Victors in this country - there is nothing of that scale in the US from the jet era even in ground running condition.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Reds Rolling »

Xm657 wrote:Much as you'd like this thread to go away RR, it is bringing up valid and important points and holding VttTS to account, and why not: they spend public money and are custodians of a much loved "people's" aircraft, so should be prepared to justify their actions and take criticism. If you don't like what you read here, you have the rest of the internet to enjoy!

It is good to hear the planning permission has finally gone in and the dream is still alive, but a hell of a long way to go yet. Hopefully the VttTS can take some constructive criticism and slash their wage bill to near zero, or I'm afraid if planning permission is granted it will be all academic anyway as there will be nothing to pay the rent with.

Interesting what vulcan558 says above regarding not paying Marshalls and being arrogant to RR, which possibly led to the withdrawal of technical support. Is this just your opinion or do have any even anecdotal evidence of this? If it is true that VttTS mismanaged the relationship with the OEMs towards the end which led to a premature end to flying, that really is poor and massively disappointing. I do recall Mr Pleming saying 558 had between two and seven years flying hours left in her if the OEM support had been there. With regard to further flying taking place, I think a winter dormant outdoors, will make that mountain even higher, not that I personally believe its even possible anyway. And don't forget Roy Jacobsen got nowhere trying to register 655 and 426 with the FAA in the 80s, so attractive as it might seem, going to the US isn't a viable way to fly her either.

The problem is XM657, is that it's pretty much ALL been discussed before, and these threads just go round and round debating the same old stuff and having the same old accusations and heresay bandied about. At the end of the day nothing will be done, and no-one here will change anything.

It makes me laugh when people like DOH pretend to be all outraged and surprised with VttS as he's known for years how the organisation works, but acts like it's the first time he's heard anything like it! He's not the only one mind.

Skymonster
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Skymonster »

106500 wrote:"In next Friday's newsletter edition, we bring an update on the Trust, six months on from successful conclusion of the Survival Appeal following significant restructuring of the Trust. We will also give you the latest news on planning for the new hangar, as well as rebutting some of the most common misconceptions we have seen over the intervening months"


So what else was said, other than the news that the hangar planning application has been submitted?

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

The premature withdrawal by the OEMs was an official statement published by VTST ( look on the VTST website, it's still linked to off their home page ) as well as being on record in the accounts.

The linking of the premature withdrawal with their alleged poor relationship with several of the OEMs was also made on both this forum & others both at the time and subsequently.
In the unlikely event of that topic ever resurfacing on here, feel free to search for the relevant posts....or on any of the other forums XH558's been discussed on.
I would say try the VTTS facebook page, but that's been censored so much even Kim Jong Un would be embarrassed.

Damned if I can recall if there was any sort of 'conclusion' reached, in all likelihood what 'discussion' there may have been probably degenerated into the usual bout of insults & handbaging that every other 'discussion' descended into.
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MicrolightDriver
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

Skymonster wrote:So what else was said, other than the news that the hangar planning application has been submitted?


That they shall say more....next week!

Plus some other bits and pieces, not least that the October Engine runs are pretty much sold out again.

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starbuck
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by starbuck »

Xm657 wrote:RR is never going to make spares for Olympus engines ever again so all we could ever have had is a few more years. A Vulcan is sadly never going to be like the Lancaster and fly on forever.


A bit out of left field admittedly, but something I have always wondered was how much compatibility and similarity there was between a RR Spey or Olympus fitted to various RN ships and their aviation namesakes?

XR219
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by XR219 »

VTTST did not have a poor relationship with the OEMs. If they had, the OEMs would just have pulled the plug immediately. What happened (as is very well documented) is that Marshalls and RR felt they could no longer find the expertise within their organisations to sign off the Vulcan safely. It would have been in Marshall's financial interest to carry on from the perspective of payments to them, as obviously they stopped on grounding. At the end of 2015, RR would have needed to sign off an engine calendar life extension, but cycles remained for another two seasons. The LE mod (2221) embodied in 2013-14 released another seven seasons or so (from memory) on the airframe. Consequently VTTST felt there was an engineering basis to fly on to the end of 2017, but the OEMs felt they could not support this. For them, the potential downsides outweighed the relatively limited upsides. Nothing sinister and we're all friends again now.
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aviodromefriend
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by aviodromefriend »

Xm657 wrote:I'd love to see if there is ever a preserved and taxiable B-52 preserved in the US. There are plenty of D and G models all round the country - all fairly complete with engines - but none of them is capable of running.
Would't that be not allowed because the B-52 is still in active service?
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steveb23
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by steveb23 »

Reds Rolling wrote:The problem is XM657, is that it's pretty much ALL been discussed before, and these threads just go round and round debating the same old stuff and having the same old accusations and heresay bandied about. At the end of the day nothing will be done, and no-one here will change anything.

It makes me laugh when people like DOH pretend to be all outraged and surprised with VttS as he's known for years how the organisation works, but acts like it's the first time he's heard anything like it! He's not the only one mind.


Thing is Reds Rolling, no one is asking you to read or contribute. If it annoys you so much why read it? Your posts are always moaning about this thread which is more of a waste of everyone's time than the posts you complain about!

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

Well I agree with the first part of what you say RR. It is pointless re-discussing the same old things. I hadn't heard this one before though. I've been a 558 Club member and regular contributor to Vulcan to the Sky but have tended to hear one horror story after another recently. I do remember when the direct parents of this thread had people saying how wasteful Vulcan to the Sky was (during the Flying years) and how so many other aircraft would benefit more. I took those comments at the time with as much contempt as you take these negative comments today, as I liked to see a Vulcan flying and wouldn't have given my money to anything else anyway.

We should really limit ourselves to discussing new information as it appears. Otherwise the thread is drowned in endless repetition and important things like the Annual Accounts get drowned out too. Let's see what Mr Pleming has to say when he returns to work and pens the progress report next week and rebuffs all these common misconceptions. Nothing else to say really until then.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

starbuck wrote:A bit out of left field admittedly, but something I have always wondered was how much compatibility and similarity there was between a RR Spey or Olympus fitted to various RN ships and their aviation namesakes?


Or indeed the marine version of the Olympus which even has the same model number 202 as the type fitted to 558; and can be/is overhauled by a company in Aberdeen. The answer I've heard about this is the marine and industrial versions use much heavier materials and parts and are assembled to different standards as they obviously never leave the ground. A great deal of investigating was done by Vulcan to the Sky to find a path to overhauling engines but sadly only the 8 zero houred units David Walton bought from the RAF were or ever will be allowed to fly again. RR will not entertain rebuilding even if the aviation spec parts to do so existed - they were last manufactured in the 1970s.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

No chance on the Olympus refurbishment, as has been discussed a number of times before.
Different ( lower ) spec turbine blades on the non-aviation versions, for starters.

Edited to add....
And before they're mentioned again, the suggestion of retro-fitting R-R Conways, P&W JT3s or Olympus 593s have also been made in the past.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

starbuck wrote:
Xm657 wrote:RR is never going to make spares for Olympus engines ever again so all we could ever have had is a few more years. A Vulcan is sadly never going to be like the Lancaster and fly on forever.


A bit out of left field admittedly, but something I have always wondered was how much compatibility and similarity there was between a RR Spey or Olympus fitted to various RN ships and their aviation namesakes?

The Marine Olympus shares some of the Aviation engine, the Nearest Olympus to the Vulcans are used in power stations.
Or was, still certain they are still used and serviced in all of our Nuclear power plants as back up if the nuke plants go off line. So yes the Olympus is still in use on the Marine front all over the world.

The Gas Turbine ones as ive stated above are still used, would say they are serviced by someone if they are still used.
I know there is a company on the isle of Wight service Olymupus engines..

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

It's the turbojet equivalent of saying a company which refurbishes R-R Meteor engines can do Merlins for aviation use, or that you can swop-out a duff Merlin engine for a Meteor in a Spitfire. :biggrin:
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Neverfuel
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Neverfuel »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
Reds Rolling wrote:
Dan O'Hagan wrote:The lack of accountability and rank bad decision-making is especially galling.

The same names remain year-in, year-out, answering it seems to no-one but themselves. Pleming. Edmondson. Trotter. Making and compounding mistake after mistake, which began with the madness of landing at Doncaster. And no-one can remove them.

They can be removed by not giving them any money and letting it fold. It really is that simple.

If people are happy to continue giving money to VttS then that's their business and no amount of bleating an faux outrage here will change it.


There's no "faux outrage". People are rightly furious that money given in good faith has been spunked on salaries, pay-offs, "consultancy", "services" and, it seems, a lot of things other than what it was donated for in the first place - XH558.


Dan - please explain your use of the word "spunked", and how that relates to your thoughts on the accounts to the end of October 2016?

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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

Spent. As you are well aware. Spent, when better planning and cutting of jobs when flying ceased, would have removed the need to be paying them. No implication of any impropriety, but a clear observation that VTTS were maintaining a staff FAR too big for a one aeroplane museum which the public remain unable to regularly and affordably access. Whatever maths VTTS had done to calculate the size of staff required, the figures prove that they got it horribly wrong.

Now answer me a question, as you seem determined to make this a personal issue: What is your real identity?

Only fair that we all know who we are dealing with here. Same goes for "Reds Rolling".

Neverfuel
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Neverfuel »

Now can we all discuss the good news about the new hangar for a while - or are the Dan supporters going to make it blatantly obvious to casual readers that this forum is only about the demise of VTTS, and not about the care of XH558.

Fans of 558 (as I am), where else do you have to read comments about an aircraft that is an icon, like our lady being sent for scrap.

Where else do you have to read so called "facts" that are proved wrong by trustees of VTTS.

Where else would you find that there has not been any positive comment on the planning application for the new hangar, even though so many developers have supported the planning application, that most on here said would never happen.

I think the people who are supporting the application, with their time and money, know a fair bit more than people on here who make up hysterical stories (with absolutely no substance).

Those who loiter on the site, please register and get involved, we can now support a project that we all knew would move forward. Not Dan's world, not cutting up 558, Not moving her to the USA, Not transporting her to an airfield with a possible threat of closure (or unstable surface structure), where she would be outdoors for 10+ years.

Those on here who support the future of 558, start getting some confidence to shout down these ill informed folks who care no more for the aircraft that we care so much about, than they do for the opinions of people like you and me. Give the passing public who come on here for facts, your OWN opinion. Return the forum to a place that is worth checking in on once in a while, because we talk HONESTLY and we only accept FACTS. Everyone on here and everyone who visits deserves at least that. OR do you want it to carry on as it is? Where anyone can post something unsubstantiated, without any challenge? A place to start rumours, not stop them.

I notice only Dan's supporters were saying UKAR is a force for good, because they could criticise VTTS and have a big forum to do it on (because apparently their posts get deleted on other forums - never seen it myself though), but dissenters are quickly ridiculed, bullied and made to feel "outside of the group".

Sorry guys, been there, done that (even watched Dan victimise other posters, to try and belittle them with MY reputation) and if you read in between the lines, there are some very vindictive motives.

I have stayed out of the game for a while, just to watch who says what, and to who. Who might be a friend, and who is not here to have a proper discussion about the future of 558.

My biggest wish is that positive news is discussed in an adult manner more than the rumour and speculation that can be put together by anyone.

Don't bother trying to belittle and bully me again, I'm going quiet again, until next week, when I'm sure there will be more positive news to discuss.

HEADLINE: Plans For New Vulcan Hangar At DSA -discuss

Last point DOH - stop accusing innocent forum users of being me (Neverfuel). I speak for myself, if you have any particular questions, please PM me.

Keeping a watching/listening brief.

NF

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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

Again, Neverfuel, thanks for the party political broadcast, now what is your name and connection to VTTS?

If you want to be credible, at least be prepared to reveal who you are so people might understand YOUR motives.

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