Where has XH558 thread gone?

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HeyfordDave111
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by HeyfordDave111 »

If anyone has any problems or objections with the application, they can now appeal against it in writing online to the relevant council.

Any arguments against, must be in writing and state your objections.

Once the planning application closes I think the hearing to grant or deny the application will usually be notified to be around 28 days later at committee, where you have 5 minutes to present your objections to the committee for them to yay or nay them, and or the planning permission.

Still many a slip between cup and fast taxi run, methinks.
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Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

You couldn't make this up: the address is so glamorous... Dear developer, we want to build an aircraft Hanger with a ..café, ... kitchen, at the Sewage Treatment Works, Hayfield Lane, Auckley, Doncaster DN9 3NP. VttTS registered office: Sewage Treatment Works, Hayfield Lane, Auckley, Doncaster DN9 3NP. Vulcan engine run, meet 9am at the Sewage Treatment Works.

Seriously, this was the best place, after considering all the alternatives, of where 558 should be retired to?

Sadly though I think this is as good as it gets. She wont be moved, even if it was possible to move her, as VttTS is still apparently convinced they made the right choice and Doncaster Airport is the best place to preserve a Vulcan bomber. I would have had much more respect for them if the Q&A last Friday had admitted they made a mistake in 2015 but it seemed like the best bet at the time, and are determined to make it work now. Continuing to pretend everything is going to plan apart from the naughty airport evicting them from the incredibly profitable and successful Hanger 3, is just insulting everyone's intelligence. However unlikely it seems that they can get this visitor centre built at this literally sh*t location, lets hope they can. If not I think Doncaster Airport like 558 and could well be as helpful and generous to a future volunteer group as Southend has been to the VRT. When the next "Save the VttTS/Vulcan" appeal is launched, I would like to hope good people don't waste more of their money on Mr Pleming's follies and save it up for when 558 might need financial help rather than VttTS's bank account needing topping up.

Skymonster
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Skymonster »



The planning officer in Doncaster is obviously well versed in aviation matters - if the application is approved, at least he'll have somewhere to put his coat! :grin:

bernarde
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by bernarde »

Xm657 wrote:You couldn't make this up: the address is so glamorous... Dear developer, we want to build an aircraft Hanger with a ..café, ... kitchen, at the Sewage Treatment Works, Hayfield Lane, Auckley, Doncaster DN9 3NP. VttTS registered office: Sewage Treatment Works, Hayfield Lane, Auckley, Doncaster DN9 3NP. Vulcan engine run, meet 9am at the Sewage Treatment Works.

If not I think Doncaster Airport like 558 and could well be as helpful and generous to a future volunteer group as Southend has been to the VRT. When the next "Save the VttTS/Vulcan" appeal is launched, I would like to hope good people don't waste more of their money on Mr Pleming's follies and save it up for when 558 might need financial help rather than VttTS's bank account needing topping up.


The airport have been as helpful in all of this.. A few perks given to 558;

- No Landing Fees
- Discounted Jet A1
- Free use of Hayford House for the aircrew
- Hangar Rent: Year 1, £300,000 discount, Year two, £200,000 discount, year three, asked for full return of £450,000 per year. (They couldn't keep up in the end so T2 Offered the full amount, they replaced VTTS in H3).
- Use of Hangar 1 for 7 months, free of charge.
- Free airside passes (Was £110 per person) for all staff, plus several volunteers.
- Free use of the terminal when holding events.
- Free additional fire cover.

DSA cannot be painted in a bad light over all this, VTTS selected Doncaster, Doncaster didn't select VTTS. They made their own bed, now they are 'lying' in it. Or in a new shiney house extension.

Regarding the new hangar, the previous group 'RCG Group' looks to have pulled the plug, hence they are looking for a new funding option - this is unconfirmed :ninja: but i've not been wrong yet.

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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

IF Bernarde is right again, VTTS really should have come clean and admitted the developer that was on board has now pulled out.

Surely, in the interests of transparency, they owe that to their supporters?

vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

bernarde wrote:
Xm657 wrote:You couldn't make this up: the address is so glamorous... Dear developer, we want to build an aircraft Hanger with a ..café, ... kitchen, at the Sewage Treatment Works, Hayfield Lane, Auckley, Doncaster DN9 3NP. VttTS registered office: Sewage Treatment Works, Hayfield Lane, Auckley, Doncaster DN9 3NP. Vulcan engine run, meet 9am at the Sewage Treatment Works.

If not I think Doncaster Airport like 558 and could well be as helpful and generous to a future volunteer group as Southend has been to the VRT. When the next "Save the VttTS/Vulcan" appeal is launched, I would like to hope good people don't waste more of their money on Mr Pleming's follies and save it up for when 558 might need financial help rather than VttTS's bank account needing topping up.


The airport have been as helpful in all of this.. A few perks given to 558;

- No Landing Fees
- Discounted Jet A1
- Free use of Hayford House for the aircrew
- Hangar Rent: Year 1, £300,000 discount, Year two, £200,000 discount, year three, asked for full return of £450,000 per year. (They couldn't keep up in the end so T2 Offered the full amount, they replaced VTTS in H3).
- Use of Hangar 1 for 7 months, free of charge.
- Free airside passes (Was £110 per person) for all staff, plus several volunteers.
- Free use of the terminal when holding events.
- Free additional fire cover.

DSA cannot be painted in a bad light over all this, VTTS selected Doncaster, Doncaster didn't select VTTS. They made their own bed, now they are 'lying' in it. Or in a new shiney house extension.

Regarding the new hangar, the previous group 'RCG Group' looks to have pulled the plug, hence they are looking for a new funding option - this is unconfirmed :ninja: but i've not been wrong yet.

RG group are the applicants on the planning list, so looks like they are going for the land.so it does not look like they have pulled the plug.

bernarde
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by bernarde »

vulcan558 wrote:RG group are the applicants on the planning list, so looks like they are going for the land.so it does not look like they have pulled the plug.


Quite correct but are they funding the project... VTTS need to a) secure the land via the planning permission, then b) find someone to stupidly give them £2m+ to allow RG to actually build it.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by IgnatiusJReilly »

bernarde wrote:- No Landing Fees
- Discounted Jet A1
- Free use of Hayford House for the aircrew
- Hangar Rent: Year 1, £300,000 discount, Year two, £200,000 discount, year three, asked for full return of £450,000 per year. (They couldn't keep up in the end so T2 Offered the full amount, they replaced VTTS in H3).
- Use of Hangar 1 for 7 months, free of charge.
- Free airside passes (Was £110 per person) for all staff, plus several volunteers.
- Free use of the terminal when holding events.
- Free additional fire cover.

You'd have to ask, given so much free support from the airport and from others, do VTTS actually pay the going rate for anything?
All the more remarkable given their income over the last couple of years...
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Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

To be fair they are a charity so only natural they are given things, and although it seems distasteful to draw salaries and expenses from donations, that is what a charity does.

I had no idea the airport had assisted them to that extent. I'm mindful over how often the Hanger 3 visits/events have been described as highly "profitable", and in the latest Q&A it is said how the new investor will be able to see how that business was so successful to give confidence in building a new hangar. But that doesn't really hang together if the investor actually wants to charge them the going rate for rent, and actually see a return on their investment - recouping their 2.8 million plus maybe a couple of million profit eventually.

I wonder if the assumption is actually the investor only charges them a small discounted rent, because they are such a good cause and all that, and only realises a return on investment after the VttST are finished with the Hangar and move on to the new Etna centre? Presumably some educational or government organisation is expected give them the Etna centre (or let them use for free). I may have been missing the point up until now, in trying to understand how they can survive financially, but if various bodies at Doncaster are ready to give them free things it makes more sense. The planning permission and surveys have all been done for free, so perhaps a rich property developer will emerge to build a hangar for them to use for cheap, or the airport will part fund it. Perhaps the original developer pulled out when they realised the VttST would only want to pay whatever rent it could afford and not how much the landlord expected.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

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HeyfordDave111
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by HeyfordDave111 »

Doncaster has made the commitment to buy the land needed for the hangar (Etna?) in the Q&A?
Or am I reading that incorrectly?

Also the airport has leased the land currently used to store 558 and the kit of parts in the open to the VTTS....... are they being charged now for this?

Where do the 2 ‘stars’ go when the hangar is funded and developed on the site they now stand?
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Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

I don't think anyone has made any commitment over Etna, that is something for way down the line.

558 is currently parked on airport owned land (for free) on a taxi way near the fuel depot. There is a square of land next to this which is currently owned by the Water Authority, and surrounded by sewage works on two sides and the railway line at the rear. It is this patch of land which the airport is buying back from the Water Authority for VttST to build their new Hangar.

As I understand it, Etna will be somewhere else as this area isn't big enough, and the new Hangar will be retained by the developer for a new tenant once they move in to Etna. Where Etna could go in 10 years from now I don't know. May depend on what is available by then.

IgnatiusJReilly
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by IgnatiusJReilly »

This is crazy..

They must have land already identified for ETNA? Surely this must have been a key criteria before selecting Doncaster in the first place.
Why not build ETNA in stages... and just expand / enlarge as & when the project progresses?

It's not beyond the wit of man to build the hangar, shop & cafe of this first development in such a way that it can be built out as & when they're ready?
Personally, I don't see the trust ever leaving their 'temporary home' and they'll be forever locked into a site that isn't really big enough for what they want to do, with zero opportunity to expand.
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Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

IgnatiusJReilly wrote:This is crazy..

They must have land already identified for ETNA? Surely this must have been a key criteria before selecting Doncaster in the first place.
Why not build ETNA in stages... and just expand / enlarge as & when the project progresses?

It's not beyond the wit of man to build the hangar, shop & cafe of this first development in such a way that it can be built out as & when they're ready?
Personally, I don't see the trust ever leaving their 'temporary home' and they'll be forever locked into a site that isn't really big enough for what they want to do, with zero opportunity to expand.


Indeed, given the importance of where 558 landed to spend the rest of her life, it's a shambles that these projects were nothing more than ideas in principle with no real idea how they would ever be achieved. Mr Pleming seemed to identify that Doncaster would likely be a good place for Etna and stood a good chance of various grants and funding but had no certainty or commitment that anything would actually happen. Given the safe harbour of Bruntingthorpe, I think it was a reckless gamble, but the dice has been thrown, so we have to live with it now and hope for the best. (Oh and who will be wanting to eat in the café, with the stink of poo wafting all around is beyond me, maybe they will have lots of air fresheners!!)

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by smiler »

I haven't noticed any smells when I've been working down there. :biggrin:

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by f-4 »

The sewage treatment works is maintained by Anglian Water Services, which has decided to calll all its sewage works 'Water Recycling Centres'. It reminds me of the old Lenny Henry news sketch where nuclear radiation was to be renamed 'Magic moonbeams'. Obviously it doesn't smell as it's only recycling water.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by IgnatiusJReilly »

Smells Bells... the issue here is that the land for ETNA should have been secured before the trust ever agreed to settle on Doncaster. Committed plans for their future accommodation should have been confirmed whilst the Vulcan was still flying.
The trust has paid very good money to its executive team precisley for them to be planning for the future. and for contingencies and for succession. Whatever their intentions, the reality is that, as a collective, they've failed badly.

For all his faults, if Dr Bob has to take a step back tomorrow, for whatever reason, do you really see anyone else having the drive or profile to take his place?
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Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »



Thanks for this Neverfuel. I've browsed through the documents and the new Hanger looks like it will be a fantastic facility. The issue of the newts appear to be because they are using the derelict water tank in the North West corner of the site. This area has been excluded from the development, cutting out a fair chunk of the land available, but perhaps by leaving the water tank alone the newts are not an issue.

A couple of things spring to mind though, maybe someone associated with the Trust might be able to clarify:-

There appears to be no space to store any of the spare parts, tools or servicing equipment within the Hanger - as far as I can see the rooms to the side are all intended for visitors, e.g. café, conference room etc. Nor does there appear to be any workshop area. This begs the question, where will the Canberra be restored here? The statement in the planning application declares the intended use of the Hanger as follows:

"The hanger additionally includes associated facilities, café, kitchen, offices, conference, teaching and welfare facilities. The Trust also intend to use the hanger for events, dinners, meetings, conferences etc, the scheme includes facilities suitable for these uses. "

Further down the page, the Hanger is described as having a large door so the Vulcan may depart for engine ground tests. That would suggest the Canberra and Swift shown on the plans are not intended to move. I wonder if plans to restore the Canberra have now been abandoned, but if not, where that restoration will take place, and where will the ground equipment, spares and tools be stored? Will the Trust rent further space somewhere else on the airport to actually carry out work on their aircraft and for storage? For instance, if 558 needs an engine change where will this be done, and where will the spare engines, jacks and winches be kept?

vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

The new hangar will is designed for money making, not a bad thing.
But its not designed in mind for the Vulcan, wedding parties, corporate events and coffe mornings.
Carboot sales on Sundays etc etc.

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hairrig
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by hairrig »



Shame the documents were not proof read before submission! :whistle:

vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

IgnatiusJReilly wrote:Smells Bells... the issue here is that the land for ETNA should have been secured before the trust ever agreed to settle on Doncaster. Committed plans for their future accommodation should have been confirmed whilst the Vulcan was still flying.
The trust has paid very good money to its executive team precisley for them to be planning for the future. and for contingencies and for succession. Whatever their intentions, the reality is that, as a collective, they've failed badly.

For all his faults, if Dr Bob has to take a step back tomorrow, for whatever reason, do you really see anyone else having the drive or profile to take his place?

You can see the only reason Doncaster was picked, because at the time they had cheap hangar space and facilities given in kind from the Airport while she was a flyer.
The vtts was making a good living off the back of this. With not much thought for the long term future,
The truth is the sewage works was not even thought of back then,

The planning application show very little for this new building being for the benifit of the aircraft.
Its just another function room to keep the trust going. The place is still in the wrong place for visitors to see engine runs, they will still have to be ferried round to the pan, so again it will be small groups still.

Fast Taxi runs will be very few if any, again small groups high price. So the new Hangar has very few benifits for 558 apart from being in the dry,
It reminds me of when a child every morning you would see these plastic dogs or other animal's, wheeled outside shops each morning for people to put money in a slot for the Rspca.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

hairrig wrote:


Shame the documents were not proof read before submission! :whistle:

Could be part of the retail side of things, selling clothing.

Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

Is the Hanger even big enough to hold events, there seems plenty of parking space (maybe enough for 100 cars) but not much room for that many people inside unless people sit under the Vulcan or the Vulcan is pushed outside to fit people in. It looks more like a visitor centre for small numbers, maybe a school trip, but nothing on the scale they could do in Hanger 3: far too cramped. I suppose its the only option they have so have to do the best they can. Will it ever be built though?

vulcan558
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

Xm657 wrote:Is the hangar even big enough to hold events, there seems plenty of parking space (maybe enough for 100 cars) but not much room for that many people inside unless people sit under the Vulcan or the Vulcan is pushed outside to fit people in. It looks more like a visitor centre for small numbers, maybe a school trip, but nothing on the scale they could do in hangar 3: far too cramped. I suppose its the only option they have so have to do the best they can. Will it ever be built though?


Yes I think this could be built, but how long will it last, another building they are renting.
Like you was saying about planning ahead, or lack of it.
They have had millions since last flight, if they had plans and future sorted to justify landing her at Doncaster then that money would have bought this land and building outright.
The truth is they have been no thought or plans, month to month and the landing at Doncaster based solely on Hangar 3.

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