Where has XH558 thread gone?

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IgnatiusJReilly
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by IgnatiusJReilly »

The lack of clarity and openness from the trust around what & how much engineering support they can really call on, leaves me to wonder quite what the plan is when, inevitably, the list of grumbles & gremlins starts getting longer.
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HeyfordDave111
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by HeyfordDave111 »

To be fair, i don't think Taff's experience and knowledge has ever been called into question.

I believe the majority, if not all of us think that Taff is the Vulcan Guru :worship:
However no matter how good the man at the bottom (forgive me Taff) is, the guys him above aren't.
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Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

Indeed, the competence of Taff and the engineering staff is in no doubt, its what happens when Taff is not there that is worrying and I have very little confidence in. Concerned people have raised that the Trust may have forgotten or been unable to put the canopy cover back on, definitely not scaremongering or at all silly. We are told that Taff said it would be ok to leave the cover off for 3 or 4 days, yet 5 days later we are told it will be put back on when convenient, and that it is only an additional line of defence because instruments inside the cockpit are covered. I am hoping there is a dehumidifier in there as the thought of water collecting in the cockpit, evaporating and condensation finding its way into every nook and cranny, fills me with horror.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by IgnatiusJReilly »

Interesting to see that Newquay found a way to accommodate 4000 people onto a working airfield for the Bloodhound SSC run today.
And will do so again on Saturday.
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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

Xm657 wrote:Indeed, the competence of Taff and the engineering staff is in no doubt


What engineering staff....there aren't any.
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Reds Rolling »

IgnatiusJReilly wrote:Interesting to see that Newquay found a way to accommodate 4000 people onto a working airfield for the Bloodhound SSC run today.
And will do so again on Saturday.

Oooof. :grin:
http://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/bloodhound-supersonic-car-organisers-defend-678495

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by IgnatiusJReilly »

Reds Rolling wrote:
IgnatiusJReilly wrote:Interesting to see that Newquay found a way to accommodate 4000 people onto a working airfield for the Bloodhound SSC run today.
And will do so again on Saturday.

Oooof. :grin:
http://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/bloodhound-supersonic-car-organisers-defend-678495

And... kids were allowed in...
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vulcanshammer
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcanshammer »

It is quite surprising, I assumed they had no flights today but it appears they had/made a window in the middle of the day. Nice!
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MicrolightDriver
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

IgnatiusJReilly wrote:Interesting to see that Newquay found a way to accommodate 4000 people onto a working airfield for the Bloodhound SSC run today.
And will do so again on Saturday.


Could be that a Vulcan stuck on a runway would present more of an issue to airport's operations than a relatively small and movable 'jet car'?

Then again, this certainly does seem to fly in the face of those who said such events were an impossibility at regional airports.

Let's hope it bodes well for future events at Doncaster.

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speedbird2639
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by speedbird2639 »

Could be that a Vulcan stuck on a runway would present more of an issue to airport's operations than a relatively small and movable 'jet car'?


I'm guessing Doncaster Airport has a tug capable of moving aircraft about on the airfield?

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MicrolightDriver
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

speedbird2639 wrote:
Could be that a Vulcan stuck on a runway would present more of an issue to airport's operations than a relatively small and movable 'jet car'?


I'm guessing Doncaster Airport has a tug capable of moving aircraft about on the airfield?


Depends how 'stuck' it is I suppose. I imagine airports need to think about worst cases, however unlikely...

Hopefully VTTS' work to 'prove' their operating procedures for a taxi run will pay dividends.

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speedbird2639
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by speedbird2639 »

I bet they wish they had that big bag of silica that they put through the engine to dry out the cockpit electrics!

:lmao:

Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

Brevet Cable wrote:
Xm657 wrote:Indeed, the competence of Taff and the engineering staff is in no doubt


What engineering staff....there aren't any.


Well yes, I was thinking of the ex-staff. I wonder how many Vulcan experienced volunteer engineers they have now who know enough to actually fix things? Or are the volunteers just well meaning people from the stands and bucket collections who are perhaps willing to try and learn? Cockpit Canopy or not, left outside she will inevitably start to develop snags and VttST wont be able to rely on the turn-key serviceability they have enjoyed up to now. What happens when they are setting up for the next engine run day and she wont fire up due to an electrical gremlin, or she gets a fuel leak in an awkward spot etc etc. Is Taff all they have to fix her or will other knowledgeable engineers be on hand to keep everything working - will people even be allowed to start tinkering with her without expert (paid) guidance?

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

MicrolightDriver wrote:Hopefully VTTS' work to 'prove' their operating procedures for a taxi run will pay dividends.


It seems to be taking a fair bit of proving. They did a single private taxi if I remember rightly early in 2016, but has there been any progress to getting her on the runway since? If it couldn't be done in the 18 months she had a team of highly experienced paid engineers keeping in a near air worthy state, what chance has she got now Taff looking in on her occasionally? She is even towed to the engine run area, so apparently not even allowed to taxi under her own power along the taxi ways never mind the main runway - although this might just be to save fuel I suppose. I can't help feeling Doncaster has not turned out how they hoped, as surely if your aim was to taxi then the time to make sure that was going to be feasible and easy to do was long before you stranded her there forever. But anyway, lets not start this endless debate again!

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

Xm657 wrote:Is Taff all they have to fix her or will other knowledgeable engineers be on hand to keep everything working - will people even be allowed to start tinkering with her without expert (paid) guidance?

From Sam's post on the VTTS forum :
The answer to the question about the engineers is that theoretically they still hold the approvals for maintenance and continuing airworthiness management. What they do not have is anyone who can carry out that work. Taff has all the ticks in the boxes having done all of the courses but now has a full time job at Waddington. Rick has the approvals for the airworthiness management but has a full time job at Syerston. Myself and Ray hold the approvals for the airframe and engine maintenance but we have full time jobs at Waddington and wherever-I-canfindit. Maybe if the trust asks nicely we will all come running back - but in at least two cases that will result in a divorce court appearance as families have reached the end of their tether.


Will volunteers be allowed to work on it? I'd have thought a lot of that would be down to the airport's owners & what agreement they have with VTTS. It could be that the requirement is for qualified staff only ( I think Dr Pleming mentioned something about it in the podcast DanO' did )
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

I think that assumes her being kept in airworthy condition. Clearly there is no point having anyone qualified do the work now, just someone who knows enough not to hurt themselves or 558. Unless VttST want to maintain the slightest hope of return to flight or a ferry flight anyone who can might as well help to keep her working. Unless of course the airport don't want an undocumented "runner" on their runway. Oh what a mess, the Vulcan in the best condition of any left but it can't turn a wheel under its own power.

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

From what I recall of the podcast, one of the criteria was that it had to be kept in airworthy condition, although I can't remember if that was a stipulation by the airport, the HLF or both.
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Xm657
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Xm657 »

Brevet Cable wrote:From what I recall of the podcast, one of the criteria was that it had to be kept in airworthy condition, although I can't remember if that was a stipulation by the airport, the HLF or both.


I can't remember that bit. She is in near airworthy condition right now (obviously the elephant in the room is lack of OEM support and CAA Permit to fly), but after year or more outdoors regardless of anti-det runs and the VttTS's assertion that Vulcans "were designed to be stored outside", she will be far from theoretically airworthy and would need serious examination for corrosion and thorough servicing to be back in the same condition.

I must say I find the often quoted "designed to be stored outdoors" quite annoying. I very much doubt this is actually true, all aircraft, especially large ones, have to spend most of their time outdoors. However, I'm sure Avro spent most of their time designing how it should be the best bomber it could be, and I doubt they spent any time on the "anti corrosion warrantee" design features. They were meant to be used regularly and well looked after, rather than being "designed" to be resistant to weather. They are made from an alloy which corrodes very easily when exposed to the weather, so frankly they were not designed to be left outside at all, its just the RAF had no choice!

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speedbird2639
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by speedbird2639 »

I think any stipulation of being maintained in air worthy condition can now be regarded as obsolete as the lack of OEM support and CAA Permit to fly is essentially permanent and I can't envisage a situation where the OEMs involved would choose to or be in a position to reverse their decision.

So for all practical purposes 'airworthy condition' can be considered to have been downgraded to taxiable condition.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Stagger2 »

And 'Taxiable Condition' will soon be downgraded to 'Static Condition'....and that will be unavoidably downgraded to 'Scrappable Condition'!
You only have to look at outside Museum exhibits in the UK to be certain of the above scenario. Ask yourself why the modernish Tornado & slick Typhoon have their canopies & critical panel-joints UPVC-taped against water ingress & the risk of condensation causing corrosion & malfunction, to realise that the vintage Vulcan isn't going to be at risk being stored outside long-term. :loser:
Forget all the HLF stipulations, this is a 'use-it or lose-it' situation. :dizzy:
PS:- Where is the mythical 'Charity Hangar' on the horizon anyway? :facepalm:

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Brevet Cable »

Xm657 wrote:
Brevet Cable wrote:From what I recall of the podcast, one of the criteria was that it had to be kept in airworthy condition, although I can't remember if that was a stipulation by the airport, the HLF or both.


I can't remember that bit.

Just had a quick recheck & you're right, the term 'airworthy condition' wasn't used....at about 19:10 when discussing the lack of fast-taxy runs, he stated that they had to show the airport owners that their procedures were comparable to what were required by the CAA.
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Dan O'Hagan
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

Xm657 wrote: I can't help feeling Doncaster has not turned out how they hoped, as surely if your aim was to taxi then the time to make sure that was going to be feasible and easy to do was long before you stranded her there forever. But anyway, lets not start this endless debate again!


An excellent point that I've not seen mentioned before.

Surely before the scandalous decision, against the public's wishes, to dump/land XH558 at Doncaster was made, a formal agreement had been drawn up by the Trust and the airport to allow taxi runs (and public access to them)? If no such agreement was in place, or VTTS knew they were unable to meet the airport's conditions, the decision looks even more abysmal than it already does.

And still those at the top remain in place, seemingly accountable to no-one.

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MicrolightDriver
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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by MicrolightDriver »

Stagger2 wrote:And 'Taxiable Condition' will soon be downgraded to 'Static Condition'....and that will be unavoidably downgraded to 'Scrappable Condition'!
You only have to look at outside Museum exhibits in the UK to be certain of the above scenario.


Not looked towards Wellesbourne or Southend or Bruntingthorpe then?

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by Skymonster »

The airport has raised a number of objections to the proposed Vulcan hangar development which, while not stopping it dead in its tracks, seem likely to involved further design / planning / assessment before work can go ahead. Maybe I am naive to the nuances of the planning process, but I am rather surprised that the designers did not investigate the impact the hangar would have on the airport radar, sight lines from the ATC tower, wind turbulence for aircraft on approach, and light glare. More cynically, the question "have they really thought this through?" comes to mind.

The local ecology planner has also raised objections that need to be address, and further clarification of issues surrounding water drainage and air quality impact have been requested.

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Re: Where has XH558 thread gone?

Post by vulcan558 »

MicrolightDriver wrote:
Stagger2 wrote:And 'Taxiable Condition' will soon be downgraded to 'Static Condition'....and that will be unavoidably downgraded to 'Scrappable Condition'!
You only have to look at outside Museum exhibits in the UK to be certain of the above scenario.


Not looked towards Wellesbourne or Southend or Bruntingthorpe then?

Xm655 is not left like 55i is, 655 is looked after by a good size team, 655 is worked on every week. 558 seems to be covered up and left, only to be uncovered when a engine anti det run is required.

At present I would say 655 at wellsbourne is better looked after.
Same with most of the aiframes at Bruntingthorpes are worked on every weekend come rain or shine.

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