XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...

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tache3
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XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...

Post by tache3 »

Official announcement on the Black Mike Facebook page-

"Official statement from BPAG and GJD services as to the rehoming of XV582. Despite initial plans to base the aircraft at Bruntingthorpe, this is no longer the case. We have been approached by the RAF to "borrow" Black Mike to use in their centenary celebrations, and in return they are providing us with the use of hangar space at RAF Cosford, until after April 2018. After this time, it will be moved to it's new home. There are several options on the table as to the location of the new home, and it would be foolish of us to make any public announcements until all negotiations are finalised,. Suffice to say it will be safe and accesible for future generations"

Further comments from the BPAG made later on the page have revealed that GJD Services are leaving Bruntingthorpe. Presumably that means that they are taking XV582 with them, as Gary Spoors is still the owner of the aircraft until the loan he made to the BPAG has been repaid. No reason is given for GJD leaving but apparently Gary Spoors and a person called Peter Reoch make the Cosford connection happen.

It makes me wonder though. Following on from the VTTS's reticence in stating their real reasons for not wanting to go to Bruntingthorpe and the cancellation of the August CWJ Open Day (later reinstated, I know), we now have a large aero industry firm vacating the site and taking their Cold War relic with them. Is there an issue with the future of aviation activities and the CWJ collection at Bruntingthorpe? There was some speculation about this on the old 558 thread but we know what happened to that discussion.

Even though GJD may no longer be based at the site, it would still be the best place for a taxyable Cold War jet to be kept and maintained surely? Unless, of course, there is no long term future at Bruntingthorpe.
Last edited by tache3 on Wed 30 Aug 2017, 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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iainpeden
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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by iainpeden »

The request to use Black Mike as part of the RAF 100th anniversary celebrations leads me to speculate that RIAT2018 may have a similar display to the 2003 celebration of flight.
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

FGR2
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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by FGR2 »

According to a post on the Black mike project facebook page, David Walton does not want want/have space for any more museum aircraft.

Perhaps they are taking up space which could be used for car storage or other commercial activities.

Unknown74
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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by Unknown74 »

Sorry but I think she should have gone to East Fortune, that U.S. Marked Phantom should have been an RAF marked example and either the Black Mike Phantom or the Phantom which went to Ireland would have been more appropriate.

Sorry but I'm just stating my opinion.

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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by iainpeden »

Agreed that East Fortune should have had an FG1 but the alternative for the F-4S, which had been swapped for a Scimitar by the FAA Museum at Yeovilton, was scrapping.
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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by PeterR »

iainpeden wrote:The request to use Black Mike as part of the RAF 100th anniversary celebrations leads me to speculate that RIAT2018 may have a similar display to the 2003 celebration of flight.


Since when has RIAT been held at RAF Cosford? :dizzy:

Alanko
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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by Alanko »

iainpeden wrote:Agreed that East Fortune should have had an FG1 but the alternative for the F-4S, which had been swapped for a Scimitar by the FAA Museum at Yeovilton, was scrapping.



It would have been nice to have seen XT852 saved from West Freugh.

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tache3
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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by tache3 »

FGR2 wrote:According to a post on the Black mike project facebook page, David Walton does not want want/have space for any more museum aircraft.


Link please? I cannot find any comment on the Black Mike page to that effect.

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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by FGR2 »

tache3 wrote:
FGR2 wrote:According to a post on the Black mike project facebook page, David Walton does not want want/have space for any more museum aircraft.


Link please? I cannot find any comment on the Black Mike page to that effect.


Apologies, it was the British F-4 Aviation Group page

https://www.facebook.com/bf4pag/

It is a comment from them under the thread starting:

Official statement from BPAG and GJD services as to the rehoming of XV582.

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iainpeden
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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by iainpeden »

PeterR wrote:
iainpeden wrote:The request to use Black Mike as part of the RAF 100th anniversary celebrations leads me to speculate that RIAT2018 may have a similar display to the 2003 celebration of flight.


Since when has RIAT been held at RAF Cosford? :dizzy:

Stored and cleaned up at Cosford then taken to Fairford; a few museum aircraft were done up for the 2003 show. I just hope they don't repaint her grey (not very well) which is what happened to the 92 squadron blue Phantom which is now at Tangmere. The initial post does say that the storage is up until April.

That said, to have a Phantom at Cosford in the Cold War museum would make sense along with a Starfighter.
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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by Brevet Cable »

Plenty of room at St Athan..... :whistle: :lol:
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tache3
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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by tache3 »

FGR2 wrote:Apologies, it was the British F-4 Aviation Group page


A page whose official website link leads to a clothing company? Forgive me if I don't give that a great deal of credibility.

*EDIT although, to be fair, the www.xv582blackmike.co.uk site isn't working either...

vulcan558
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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by vulcan558 »

Non of the sites say its not going to Bruntingthorpes, they all state its going to Cosford for work to be done.
This will be for next years RAF 100th celebrations. After this the Phantom will then go to its new home, chosen
By the owner.
Nothing posted about it will never go to Brunti.

My view would say it will go to Scampton.

f-4
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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by f-4 »

Surely the bigger question is where is GJD going to?

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tache3
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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by tache3 »

vulcan558 wrote:Non of the sites say its not going to Bruntingthorpe...Nothing posted about it will never go to Brunti.


Here is the relevant part of the discussion from the Black Mike Facebook page (I've deleted the participants names for privacy reasons but you can read the conversation for yourself if you are a member of the group)-

"Q- That's a shame about Brunty. Is there a reason for the change of plans that you can share with us?

A- See further post re. Bruntingthorpe

Q- Thank you. Still slightly confused though. Is the aircraft not going to Bruntingthorpe because of the loan to the RAF, or is it going to Cosford temporarily because Bruntingthorpe is no longer an option?

A- It's going to Cosford because the RAF want it to feature in the centenary display. In return they've offered hangar space where we can work on it to put it back together and make it pretty. Bruntingthorpe is a separate issue. See my other post about that.

Q- So, is Bruntingthorpe still under consideration for a destination after April 2018?

A- Nope.

Q- OK. Thank you. Are GJD Services still involved with the aircraft?

A- Gary owns BM.

Q- But are they still providing funding?

A- Gary Spoors bought it on behalf of the group. The plan is to repay him in full. Right now he's the legal owner of the aircraft. Restoration will be carried out by the group. Fund raising will repay the loan.

Q- Thank you. Those are the facts we already know from your statement in January 2016. I'm just curious if the change of plans has anything to do with some change in the relationship with GJD (who are, as we also know, based at Bruntingthorpe).

A- Nope. And GJD are leaving too"

So there you have it. There was also this post (below) later on in the discussion, which is food for thought-

"Why isn't the aircraft now going to Bruntingthorpe? A simple question that myself and two other people asked earlier in the thread and we were directed toward a statement of total vagueness that merely said that it was going to Cosford until April and then somewhere else after that- which is fair enough as it is probably best to be noncommittal until definite arrangements are in place. I understand and agree with that. However, it did not answer the original direct question. It was only after I badgered Paul that the info emerged bit by bit that Bruntingthorpe was now totally off the table and that GJD (whose executive Gary Spoors is the owner of the aircraft) are vacating the site. It is this process of extracting information, seemingly reluctantly, that makes it look like you are being deliberately evasive and sets the alarm bells ringing that the situation is not all it is being claimed to be. So, joining the dots together, we have a person in the aviation industry who owns a cold war era jet. This person owns a business based at an airfield that is also host to a collection of similar vintage aircraft. But this business is leaving this site and would seem to be taking its vintage jet along with it when it leaves, if what the leader of the engineering team says is true. Interesting. If GJD are leaving Bruntingthorpe for commercial or similar business related reasons, it would still make sense to base XV582 there as its a proven and well regarded facility for the maintenance of heritage aircraft with regular public access and scheduled displays by taxyable aircraft, which are the publicly stated aims of the BPAG. So, if the aircraft is still owned by Gary Spoors but operated by BPAG, why is it not going to Bruntingthorpe, which would be its most suitable home, just because GJD are no longer onsite? The only reason can be that the location of GJD, or the matter of ownership of the aircraft isn't the issue- Bruntingthorpe is.

So, in the interests of the clarity mentioned earlier, here is what I think and what I am getting at. I think that there is no long term future for aviation at Bruntingthorpe. The disposal and maintenance end of things may continue but I think that as soon as David Walton sadly passes away, the CWJ collection's days are numbered. I think that the VTTS people know this, which is why XH558 didn't return there (and why they made such poor excuses about it and seem determined to set up a maintenance facility elsewhere) and I think BPAG and Gary Spoors know it too. It may not be the reason why GJD are leaving but I suspect that it is why Black Mike isn't going there. I hope I'm wrong because its a wonderful place, a great collection and the open days are a glorious day out and it would be an awful blow to the UK heritage jet scene should the facility disappear. There seems to be a wall of silence around this scenario, no-one seems to want to discuss it. Perhaps for the simple reason that it is not polite to publicly discuss the issue of David Walton's mortality, but perhaps for some other reason that those of us not connected with the CWJ collection are unable to appreciate".

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Craig
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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by Craig »

This also raises somewhat worrying questions about the VC-10s that are GJD Services owned and clearly won't be moving anywhere. It's be desperately sad if anything were to happen to them!

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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by XP282 »

Gary / GJD has preserved aircraft all over the country. I don't think you need to worry about the GJD VC10. I'm sure it's safe!

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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by Xm657 »

tache3, I completely agree with your post. To be frank, my heart sank when I heard the new that BM is no longer going to Bruntingthorpe, as I had based my confidence in its future because the collection was expanding with the addition of the Phantom. I had a very interesting conversation with someone in the motor industry recently: he told me vehicle storage is an all time boom, and airfields around the country are at bursting point. The Walton family are foregoing a small fortune not using every inch of hard standing for vehicles (the figure of 10 pounds per month per car was mentioned, and you'd get a lot of cars around Bruntingthorpe).

It really would be a crying shame if this is the beginning of the end, but maybe we should just be thankful we had it all. If Mr Pleming did know that Bruntingthorpe was doomed, many of us (myself included for sure), owe him an apology, as suddenly Doncaster doesn't seem so bad after all. I recall hearing Martin Withers discussing the choice of retirement sites and he listed at least half a dozen but not Bruntingthorpe. At the time I began to wonder if David Walton and the VttST had fallen out, but in Mr Pleming's interview with Dan O'Hagan he said everything was good between them, Walton would have liked the Vulcan to return, but he wondered how long Bruntingthorpe could go on. I suspect (and really hope I am wrong), that the wider Walton family would prefer to make as much money as possible from Bruntingthorpe (much the same as the Littler family who own Wellesbourne), and David's hobby of keeping old jets running there has turned into an extremely expensive one.

What would be odd though is the cloak and dagger non discussion of all this, which might indicate we are adding two and two together and making five. Why would there be so much secrecy over several years, it's not something that would need to be kept under wraps - particularly if you consider the flack VttST has taken over Bruntingthorpe. Maybe the explanation is that GJD simply want to base themselves somewhere else for commercial reasons, and since Gary clearly has an interest in the Phantom he wants to take it with him. I really cant see him taking both VC10s away though, and the Tristars are going to be stored for a while yet it seems, so it does leave many puzzling questions.

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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by Skymonster »

I think we have to accept that things are changing at Bruntingthorpe, and while not catastrophic it's not necessarily for the better as far as vintage aviation is concerned. In fact I have had this in mind for a while, and have been sceptical of all the clamor about XH558 and whether it might have been better off at Brunty.

Firstly I believe there is a council restriction on constructing new large hangars which I think is a major inhibitor to some of the potential historic aircraft activity. I was also advised that the two Cathay 747s that arrived for part out at the turn of the year were the last large aircraft that would arrive for processing at Bruntingthorpe. The apparent revelation that GJD are moving to a hangar at St Athan seems to reflect that. Remember that while breaking aircraft inevitably takes place outside, a lot of component recovery (which is GJD's main business) is best performed under cover, something that is sadly lacking at Brunty - maybe for reasons already suggested. I also understand it costs GJD quite a lot to have the airfield cleared for aircraft arrivals and departures. The escape of the L1011s (if it happens) would seem likely to be the last gasp for large aircraft flying into (and out of) Brunty,

As to car storage - there were, I was told, upwards of 20,000 cars on the airfield back in May with more to come, and while I gather the £10 / vehicle / month quoted by another responder here is not totally accurate, I believe it is not far wide of the mark. As such, the DAILY income from car storage is probably not too far removed from what is earned at a Cold War Jets day, and the open days are small change compared to the main activity on the site now. And of course the storage business brings with it other challenges, such as the need for continual access for drop offs and pick ups and of course security, neither of which are particularly well aligned with regular and fairly unsupervised public admission.

Having said that, another major revenue earner at Brunty is the track which is used by manufacturers for testing (which often requires secrecy), track days and filming. Again these earn more than two aviation events each year, and have to take place when the public are not free to roam. Having said that, the track may be the salvation for the aircraft as it is difficult to see cars being stored on it, and in effect that preserves the runway.

I can see a day (and perhaps it's not far off) when it becomes necessary to further segregate the aircraft from the vehicle activity. Maybe when the last vestiges of airliner disposal are removed, the aircraft can be moved down there, leaving the area around the hangar and existing pans free for cars (albeit that would leave LPG out on a limb). Either way it seems inevitable there will be less room for aircraft preservation in the near term future, and that is probably underpinning the decision making surrounding XV582. On the other hand I haven't noticed any lack of commitment on the part of the various groups at Brunty. The LPG seems to doing OK, work continues on many of the other airframes including a revival of the Comet to taxiable condition, the Canberra is being repainted - would the groups be that committed if they knew their time was limited?

Actually I am less worried about 582 than I am about the other assets owned by GJD - the VC10 and Shackleton, etc. I hope the relocation of the business does not result in a loss of interest in keeping those airframes in good condition. Also, let's not hope the constraints will get so great that aviation is excluded - there are a number of airframes at Brunty that will inevitably end their days being chopped up if that ever happens.

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tache3
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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by tache3 »

Skymonster wrote:I haven't noticed any lack of commitment on the part of the various groups at Brunty. The LPG seems to doing OK, work continues on many of the other airframes including a revival of the Comet to taxiable condition, the Canberra is being repainted - would the groups be that committed if they knew their time was limited?


Image

Yes, I was wondering about the LPG too. They seem to be the most firmly rooted there (having quite literally dug into the soil to erect the Q shed).

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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by Stagger2 »

It's a certain truth that 'money is everything' to many people, usually more-so to those already having a healthy stash!
A collection of grounded airframes, some of which can taxi, is never going to compete for large chunks of ground-space that could yield cash 365/24/7. Therefore it's inevitable that circumstances will & do change to reflect enhanced financial opportunities.
I don't personally ascribe to VTTS having any prior knowledge of potential changes to the Bruntingthorpe business model. More likely to be luck, if indeed the recent speculation on the Walton's plans has foundation in any case.
With regard to David Walton's on-going wishes, he could legally ( if he so desired?) transfer his interests & preferences into Trust to preserve his choices in perpetuity & thereby prevent any subsequent post-death beneficiaries 'tugging the rug' from under his aviation interests. :wink:
In a similar vein, but off-topic, I was told at Dunsfold that the Brooklands VC-10 which performed 4 perfect engine-runs over the weekend would almost certainly be broken-up if/when the airfield recieves Planning Permission for housing :sad:

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andrewn
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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by andrewn »

speculative post deleted as information provided by other posters makes it clear there is no obvious threat to ongoing aviation activity at Bruntingthorpe :)
Last edited by andrewn on Thu 31 Aug 2017, 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by reheat module »

Plenty of space at Doncaster...
Canon systems

vulcan558
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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by vulcan558 »

The car industry is at a peak at this present time, I know that production numbers are dropping on some models.
The car industry peaks and drops very quickly,
Bruntingthorpes will be cashing in on this, who would not.

But come this time next year or year after you may find the place with very few cars.

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Re: XV582 NOT going to Bruntingthorpe...*UPDATED

Post by FarnboroJohn »

vulcan558 wrote:The car industry is at a peak at this present time, I know that production numbers are dropping on some models.
The car industry peaks and drops very quickly,
Bruntingthorpes will be cashing in on this, who would not.

But come this time next year or year after you may find the place with very few cars.


Indeed. The car storage thing is based on the idea that unsold cars will be sold.... but they mustn't hang around long enough to interfere with future models. Also over-production of cars in a free market is not sustainable. The event income is lower but sustainable: the car storage can only be regarded as a windfall.

John

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