Was it worth it?

Discuss all things 'aviation' that do not fit into a more appropriate forum

In the example - is it worth it?

Poll ended at Thu 31 May 2018, 7:50 pm

Yes
48
44%
Yes
48
44%
No
7
6%
No
7
6%
 
Total votes: 110

Berf
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Was it worth it?

Post by Berf »

From various news sources inc MoD:

A flight of Typhoons were tasked 9 May to deal with two terrorists who had been spotted by a coalition surveillance aircraft as they moved on foot in the western desert of Iraq, some 25 miles south-east of Ar Rutbah. The Typhoons successfully located the terrorists and used a single Paveway IV guided bomb to strike them.

A Paveway IV bomb cost in the region of 70,000 pounds. (according to UK government).

Was it worth it?

(Mod test of an edit please ignore)

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Paul_Reflex
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by Paul_Reflex »

Surely this depends on what they were near, what they were carrying and what their intent was?

(Mod test edit please ignore)

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boff180
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by boff180 »

Save £70,000 or save innocent life from potential pain and suffering.

One is a 5 figure number, one is priceless.

Test edit

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Tommy
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by Tommy »

And it would probably depend on what level said terrorists were in seniority or what risk they posed.

If you're going to commit to a war, I think you have to do it on a broadly blank cheque basis (obviously within reason).

What happens if that just turns into a strategy? "if we all travel in groups of 2, they won't do anything cos its too expensive".

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Pat Murphy
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by Pat Murphy »

Might have been Cheaper, financially to use the cannon but I am sure that the crew involved would have assessed the risk and used the appropriate ordnance for the task. In short, yes.

Smog Monster
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by Smog Monster »

Perhaps a more interesting question (in terms of cost / benefit) is the use of typhoons as the delivery system for such a task.

Can't help but feel the RAF lacks a relatively cheap close air support type ever since the Jaguar retirement.

Something like a strikemaster (or modern equivalent) fleet could surely save an awful lot of Typhoon airframe hours currently being used when their performance is simply unnecessary for the role being carried out.

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CJS
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by CJS »

Like the Hawk T.2 perhaps?
With just the slightest bit of finesse, I might have made a little less mess.

Smog Monster
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by Smog Monster »

Yes, but in a front line capacity

farnboroughrob
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by farnboroughrob »

I have said for ages that they need to convert a Voyager into a bomb carrier that stooges around at 30,000ft and drops LGB's when needed. No no longer need as many fighters as we only seem to attack those countries without much of an air defence capability. or convert some Heks to AC-130!

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paullangford
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by paullangford »

No..........Iraq has never been a threat to us

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Craig
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by Craig »

Regardless of the arguments over military necessity and lives saved etc surely this ignores a glaring problem in the Typhoon's armoury, mainly that today I still don't think they're using Brimstone? A one size fits all policy is not good, especially if you have to engage near friendly forces. Typhoon desperately needs clearing in theatre for a smaller yield weapon 1000lbers are somewhat of a blunt instrument however accurately they are delivered.

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Beefy
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by Beefy »

paullangford wrote:No..........Iraq has never been a threat to us


No, it wasn't worth it, what "evidence" is there that these two people were even terrorists? No more evidence than the recent alleged poisoning of an ex Russian spy in the UK. If the Russians did it he would be dead, as Putin stated.

You can not believe anything you read in Western media.

Iraq never has and never will be a threat (neither will Iran or Syria for that matter, Israel however is a different story).

So begs the question of Iraq I and II wars... Oh hang on, I know why, so American companies (and their allies) can destroy, and then through lucrative contracts, re-build the country and re-supply it will military equipment, getting the government on their side at the same time whilst taking all of the money and resources they want for themselves.

USA = The World's biggest Terrorist (and they get away with, just like their little brother, Israel, does).

boff180 wrote:Save £70,000 or save innocent life from potential pain and suffering.

One is a 5 figure number, one is priceless.


And other than the BS in Western media, you know for a fact do you Andy that these two individuals were "terrorists" do you?

Surely to them, their lives are as priceless as you state that innocent life is? Maybe you should express your feelings to Trump over all the innocent lives he has directed to be killed in Syria whilst bombing "Terrorists"... Pot, Kettle.

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Seahornet
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by Seahornet »

Craig wrote:Regardless of the arguments over military necessity and lives saved etc surely this ignores a glaring problem in the Typhoon's armoury, mainly that today I still don't think they're using Brimstone? A one size fits all policy is not good, especially if you have to engage near friendly forces. Typhoon desperately needs clearing in theatre for a smaller yield weapon 1000lbers are somewhat of a blunt instrument however accurately they are delivered.


Paveway IV is a 500 lb weapon, and is only about one third of the cost of a Brimstone....
And as the smart ship grew,
In stature, grace and hue,
In shadowy silent distance grew the iceberg too....

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effects
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by effects »

Beefy wrote:
paullangford wrote:No..........Iraq has never been a threat to us


No, it wasn't worth it, what "evidence" is there that these two people were even terrorists? No more evidence than the recent alleged poisoning of an ex Russian spy in the UK. If the Russians did it he would be dead, as Putin stated.

You can not believe anything you read in Western media.

Iraq never has and never will be a threat (neither will Iran or Syria for that matter, Israel however is a different story).

So begs the question of Iraq I and II wars... Oh hang on, I know why, so American companies (and their allies) can destroy, and then through lucrative contracts, re-build the country and re-supply it will military equipment, getting the government on their side at the same time whilst taking all of the money and resources they want for themselves.

USA = The World's biggest Terrorist (and they get away with, just like their little brother, Israel, does).

boff180 wrote:Save £70,000 or save innocent life from potential pain and suffering.

One is a 5 figure number, one is priceless.


And other than the BS in Western media, you know for a fact do you Andy that these two individuals were "terrorists" do you?

Surely to them, their lives are as priceless as you state that innocent life is? Maybe you should express your feelings to Trump over all the innocent lives he has directed to be killed in Syria whilst bombing "Terrorists"... Pot, Kettle.

Meanwhile on planet earth............
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Thoughtful_Flyer
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by Thoughtful_Flyer »

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"

"The only war crime is being on the losing side"

Discuss.........

Berf
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by Berf »

Well the western media was certainly sucked into this one

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/30/russian-journalist-arkady-babchenko-who-was-reported-killed-is-still-alive

didn't (nearly) everyone want to believe it was the Russians.

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Pringles
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by Pringles »

Berf wrote: (nearly) everyone want to believe it was the Russians.

It was :facepalm: the hit was "ordered by Russian security services"
If life gives you melons then you're probably dyslexic

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Paul_Reflex
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by Paul_Reflex »

effects wrote:
Beefy wrote:
paullangford wrote:No..........Iraq has never been a threat to us


No, it wasn't worth it, what "evidence" is there that these two people were even terrorists? No more evidence than the recent alleged poisoning of an ex Russian spy in the UK. If the Russians did it he would be dead, as Putin stated.

You can not believe anything you read in Western media.

Iraq never has and never will be a threat (neither will Iran or Syria for that matter, Israel however is a different story).

So begs the question of Iraq I and II wars... Oh hang on, I know why, so American companies (and their allies) can destroy, and then through lucrative contracts, re-build the country and re-supply it will military equipment, getting the government on their side at the same time whilst taking all of the money and resources they want for themselves.

USA = The World's biggest Terrorist (and they get away with, just like their little brother, Israel, does).

boff180 wrote:Save £70,000 or save innocent life from potential pain and suffering.

One is a 5 figure number, one is priceless.


And other than the BS in Western media, you know for a fact do you Andy that these two individuals were "terrorists" do you?

Surely to them, their lives are as priceless as you state that innocent life is? Maybe you should express your feelings to Trump over all the innocent lives he has directed to be killed in Syria whilst bombing "Terrorists"... Pot, Kettle.

Meanwhile on planet earth............


The trouble with these internet based world views is that they always seem to play to the agenda of foreign powers that would wish us to disbelieve our own media, security services and govt. It seems that the Russian bots have done a good job on you Beefy.

The other thing that sets these beliefs apart from other damaging internet stupidity such as flat earth nonsense is the nasty anti-Semitic undertones. It's always a Jew trying to control the world whether it's Netanyahu or Rothschild. Always reminds me of the character in 1984, Emmanuel Goldstein towards whom the two minutes hate is directed.

Sad that people will fall for such blatant propaganda without doing much critical thinking about who it might serve.

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blackcat
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by blackcat »

Apart from the Gun that is all a Typhoon could have used so is what it is..........

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Tommy
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by Tommy »

Beefy wrote:
You can not believe anything you read in Western media.


I have become increasingly concerned in recent years with this style of rhetoric. It's used as an easy method for dealing with uncomfortable facts.

What it has begun to mean is "you can't believe anything in the media". Or even worse "you can't believe that which doesn't agree with us". Whomever "us" is. Its used by far left and right in equal proportion. Not that I'm saying you are either, Beefy.

Likewise, requiring "evidence" is stupid. What, the UK MoD exists to convince you personally that it was justified? It needs to release classified information again, just to satisfy you personally?

Edit - I should caveat that it's also stupid to take this to the other extreme and say "so Britain should go to war to whomever it wants?" no. Don't be stupid. The invasion in 2003 is a perfect example. With hindsight, Blair ballsed it. But there has to be a level of acceptance and trust in intelligence. There's no black and white. So speaking in such shades is idiotic.

A lot of stuff is crap, and the old adage of a lie getting halfway around the world before the truth can get its shoes on is true. But that doesn't mean you must demand unscrupulous evidence for everything, nor you just disbelieve everything that doesn't align with your views.

People chose the news they want to support the facts they want.

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boff180
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by boff180 »

Beefy wrote:
boff180 wrote:Save £70,000 or save innocent life from potential pain and suffering.

One is a 5 figure number, one is priceless.


And other than the BS in Western media, you know for a fact do you Andy that these two individuals were "terrorists" do you?

Surely to them, their lives are as priceless as you state that innocent life is? Maybe you should express your feelings to Trump over all the innocent lives he has directed to be killed in Syria whilst bombing "Terrorists"... Pot, Kettle.


You do realise that the RAF operates strict rules of engagement and hasn’t been releasing ordnance unless they are absolutely certain who/why they’re targeting someone?

Think you need a reality check, if they weren’t certain that they had hit what they needed to, they wouldn’t release the information so readily.

But ho hum, Corbyn can send them a strongly worded letter in the future....

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Ewart
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by Ewart »

Beefy wrote:
No, it wasn't worth it, what "evidence" is there that these two people were even terrorists? No more evidence than the recent alleged poisoning of an ex Russian spy in the UK. If the Russians did it he would be dead, as Putin stated.

You can not believe anything you read in Western media.



Who else can produce that type of chemical weapon that was designed originally to be undetected by Western / NATO CBRN measures?

And there are reasons that the novichok may not have been as potent as it should have been.

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CJS
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by CJS »

Why would we be privy to the evidence anyway beefy?
With just the slightest bit of finesse, I might have made a little less mess.

Berf
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by Berf »

Pringles wrote:
Berf wrote: (nearly) everyone want to believe it was the Russians.

It was :facepalm: the hit was "ordered by Russian security services"



Well the problem is Pringles that you may believe what the BBC or the Ukrainian's say and 20 years ago I would have too - maybe they are right, but now I feel the lies we have been told by our own governments over a wide range of issues makes me question everything we are told and realise over time that our forms of democracy and government have a much failings as any and 'we' should not be trying impose them on anyone else.

cg_341
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Re: Was it worth it?

Post by cg_341 »

I think you need one of these, Berf.

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