Climate Change - Airshows

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harkins
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Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by harkins »

Of course that is an example of an absurd situation but, it's still tiny in the great scheme of things. Banning airshows or European Cup finals is great tokenism and a mere gesture, whilst great cultural activities will remain. Every year in China the whole country goes 'home' or to visit relatives for new year and that makes a football match virtually irrelevant. Or how about or need to go on summer holidays to the med? They're so cheap that many people now go twice a year. Why don;t we just get the train to and wreck Cornwall instead?

It's a lovely idea saving the planet (well, human race, as the planet will be just fine anyway) but it strikes me that all the effort and sacrifices will/are being taken by Europeans and maybe in particular the UK. Yes, lets us end minor activities like airshows and music festivals, but China, India, South America etc etc will continue to make our sacrifices absolutely futile.

I'm sat in an office with about 12 other people and there are lights, PC's printers, all manner of scopes and meters etc burning juice and a lot of it all in relation to the mining industry. I am not quitting my livelihood as a gesture in saving the planet. And therein lies the problem, we all want everyone else to do something about it. People bang on about protecting children's futures whilst having more of them and then flying them to Australia to see the grandparents - as if they're special and global warming isn't their fault.

It's all a load of bollocks, and if we cared so much about the planet we'd probably not have been so busy making countless animal species extinct either. We only really care about ourselves as humans to a degree, but mostly about ourselves and individuals.

I'm happy to not care too much. It wasn't my idea to create all this pollution and I'm not quite sure why it should be my misfortune to be around at the time when airshow, cup finals and holidays etc should be banned.

Mad rant over.

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by Spiny Norman »

harkins wrote:
It's all a load of bollocks, and if we cared so much about the planet we'd probably not have been so busy making countless animal species extinct either. We only really care about ourselves as humans to a degree, but mostly about ourselves and individuals.

I'm happy to not care too much. It wasn't my idea to create all this pollution and I'm not quite sure why it should be my misfortune to be around at the time when airshow, cup finals and holidays etc should be banned.

Mad rant over.


When you have people flying from all over the world to attend climate change conferences you can appreciate how difficult it will be to alter our behaviour and consumption patterns which are no longer tenable.

Fans don't 'need' to attend a football match. The players do. Same with holidays. Nobody 'needs' to see the Niagara Falls for example. They'd like to and it might be a fantastic memory but it's not required for life. Are airshows necessary? Not really. They are good fun and entertaining but they're not necessary. These things do send signals to the rest of the world. And if we don't do anything why should we expect others to do anything?

It will only be through carbon rationing or the likes that will force people to change what we do in a constructive way. The alternative isn't great. Maybe when the waters lapping around our feet while standing at Lakenheath we might think, ah wish I'd done something earlier. That's my rant over!

MiG_Eater
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Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by MiG_Eater »

I totally disagree with your post Spiny!

If you follow what you've said to its logical conclusion, the only important thing is survival.

If all we actually 'need' is to survive, we might as well spend our lives consuming the minimum possible food with no travel and no leisure time.

I would like to suggest that quality of life is equally important as quantity. There is more to living than just existing!

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Skyflash
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Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by Skyflash »

The Guardian article does at least highlight the absurdity of the 'legacy' position of hosting European finals in a particular pre-determined location, regardless of the finalists.

This situation could be easily avoided by having a 'pool' of suitable venues - twenty stadiums, say - located around Europe and with the game(s) being moved to whichever is most convenient for the two teams. So for example, both of this year's finals could be played at Wembley (or, like, Old Trafford for the CL if it was felt that Wembley gave Spurs too much of an advantage). Meanwhile last year's Liverpool-Real CL final could have been played at the Stade de France, roughly equidistant for the two teams involved and a damn sight fewer associated emissions than having a whole bunch of Scousers and Madridistas traipsing off to Kiev.

It's only a matter of time before something like this happens... the present furore over climate change as whipped up by the XR lot is not going to go away anytime soon.

Needless to say, the implications for aviation/airshow hobbyists are not at all positive.
Posting comments on an aviation-related chatroom, are ya? Looks like it an' all...

Andyph
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Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by Andyph »

Skyflash wrote:
the present furore over climate change as whipped up by the XR lot is not going to go away anytime soon.
.


I should hope not -The future of most living things on the planet is a stake - And the UN thinks we will pretty much have missed the bus in TWELVE years.

Airshowhammer

Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by Airshowhammer »

harkins wrote:Of course that is an example of an absurd situation but, it's still tiny in the great scheme of things. Banning airshows or European Cup finals is great tokenism and a mere gesture, whilst great cultural activities will remain. Every year in China the whole country goes 'home' or to visit relatives for new year and that makes a football match virtually irrelevant. Or how about or need to go on summer holidays to the med? They're so cheap that many people now go twice a year. Why don;t we just get the train to and wreck Cornwall instead?

It's a lovely idea saving the planet (well, human race, as the planet will be just fine anyway) but it strikes me that all the effort and sacrifices will/are being taken by Europeans and maybe in particular the UK. Yes, lets us end minor activities like airshows and music festivals, but China, India, South America etc etc will continue to make our sacrifices absolutely futile.

I'm sat in an office with about 12 other people and there are lights, PC's printers, all manner of scopes and meters etc burning juice and a lot of it all in relation to the mining industry. I am not quitting my livelihood as a gesture in saving the planet. And therein lies the problem, we all want everyone else to do something about it. People bang on about protecting children's futures whilst having more of them and then flying them to Australia to see the grandparents - as if they're special and global warming isn't their fault.

It's all a load of bollocks, and if we cared so much about the planet we'd probably not have been so busy making countless animal species extinct either. We only really care about ourselves as humans to a degree, but mostly about ourselves and individuals.

I'm happy to not care too much. It wasn't my idea to create all this pollution and I'm not quite sure why it should be my misfortune to be around at the time when airshow, cup finals and holidays etc should be banned.

Mad rant over.


What a post, you deserve a pint :clap:

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capercaillie
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Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by capercaillie »

Airshowhammer wrote:
harkins wrote:Of course that is an example of an absurd situation but, it's still tiny in the great scheme of things. Banning airshows or European Cup finals is great tokenism and a mere gesture, whilst great cultural activities will remain. Every year in China the whole country goes 'home' or to visit relatives for new year and that makes a football match virtually irrelevant. Or how about or need to go on summer holidays to the med? They're so cheap that many people now go twice a year. Why don;t we just get the train to and wreck Cornwall instead?

It's a lovely idea saving the planet (well, human race, as the planet will be just fine anyway) but it strikes me that all the effort and sacrifices will/are being taken by Europeans and maybe in particular the UK. Yes, lets us end minor activities like airshows and music festivals, but China, India, South America etc etc will continue to make our sacrifices absolutely futile.

I'm sat in an office with about 12 other people and there are lights, PC's printers, all manner of scopes and meters etc burning juice and a lot of it all in relation to the mining industry. I am not quitting my livelihood as a gesture in saving the planet. And therein lies the problem, we all want everyone else to do something about it. People bang on about protecting children's futures whilst having more of them and then flying them to Australia to see the grandparents - as if they're special and global warming isn't their fault.

It's all a load of bollocks, and if we cared so much about the planet we'd probably not have been so busy making countless animal species extinct either. We only really care about ourselves as humans to a degree, but mostly about ourselves and individuals.

I'm happy to not care too much. It wasn't my idea to create all this pollution and I'm not quite sure why it should be my misfortune to be around at the time when airshow, cup finals and holidays etc should be banned.

Mad rant over.


What a post, you deserve a pint :clap:


Nope, sorry no mention of Emma Thompson. :mad:
"The surrogate voice of st24"

austinp
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Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by austinp »

Once all the Hawks, Tornados, Hornets, Eagles, Typhoons, Falcons etc have retired and everyone is flying grey F-35's, I can't see many folks heading to airshows...

Like many, I guess, I've watched Sir David Attenborough's latest masterpiece. Sobering stuff indeed.

People want to change, but not all have grasped it, hence there's not enough momentum for it.

By the time "everyone" figures it out, we'll be screwed to the point of it being too late. That Orange President, who declares scientists as liars (what a twonk), and many others have a vested interest in the industries that are causing the harm to our planet.

I'm no tree hugger or anything, but the human race is its own worst enemy. I hope we can turn it around, otherwise future generations will have to live and cope with what we are doing right now.

I wouldn't normally post something like this, so there you go.

MiG_Eater
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Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by MiG_Eater »

Reducing emissions to an extent that it will help is, in my view, impossible without massively increasing poverty and retarding the development of countries that sorely need it. What we need to get behind is new technology to take care of emissions and cope with the symptoms of climate change.

Rather than using fewer plastic straws, we should be investing in technology to capture carbon for re-use.

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iainpeden
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Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by iainpeden »

PM on Radio 4: current discussion on the damage industrial dairy and beef farming is causing through the noxious emissions from cows - somebody on Radio 4 said "fart". :hide:

The only thing that is going to stop this planet becoming a dustbowl is a global wide virus which targets the human species alone.
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

FarnboroJohn
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Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by FarnboroJohn »

[quote="iainpeden"]PM on Radio 4: current discussion on the damage industrial dairy and beef farming is causing through the noxious emissions from cows - somebody on Radio 4 said "fart". :hide:

The only thing that is going to stop this planet becoming a dustbowl is a global wide virus which targets the human species alone.[/quote

Agreed, the whole problem is the 7 billion humans. Breeding control on that would solve the whole thing quite fast enough. I'm doing my bit....

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pbeardmore
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Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by pbeardmore »

"The only thing that is going to stop this planet becoming a dustbowl is a global wide virus which targets the human species alone."

Or Thanos?
“The best computer is a man, and it’s the only one that can be mass-produced by unskilled labour.”

verreli
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Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by verreli »

FarnboroJohn wrote:
iainpeden wrote:PM on Radio 4: current discussion on the damage industrial dairy and beef farming is causing through the noxious emissions from cows - somebody on Radio 4 said "fart". :hide:

The only thing that is going to stop this planet becoming a dustbowl is a global wide virus which targets the human species alone.


Agreed, the whole problem is the 7 billion humans. Breeding control on that would solve the whole thing quite fast enough. I'm doing my bit....


Human population grew to 7.7bn this year. Since the beginning of the year another 30 million humans net (c. half the population of UK) are now generating heat and consuming resource. Born now, with modern medicine and technology, you stand a good chance of hitting 100 so if you have very young children or have yet to have them, they are highly likely to have a front row seat to some serious sh*t.

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iainpeden
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Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by iainpeden »

So, at 61, I have travelled the world, initially without worrying about my carbon footprint; never been really hungry, cold or in danger; probably won't see the ecological armageddon just around the corner; been fortunate enough to have a lifetime career I have enjoyed and made me financially secure (if not rich) and been
lucky enough to see the best airshows and experience Bud and a burger for breakfast at Mildenhall.

Apart from never mastering the use of semi-colons (evidence above), life's been pretty good so far.
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

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andrewn
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Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by andrewn »

verreli wrote:
FarnboroJohn wrote:
iainpeden wrote:PM on Radio 4: current discussion on the damage industrial dairy and beef farming is causing through the noxious emissions from cows - somebody on Radio 4 said "fart". :hide:

The only thing that is going to stop this planet becoming a dustbowl is a global wide virus which targets the human species alone.


Agreed, the whole problem is the 7 billion humans. Breeding control on that would solve the whole thing quite fast enough. I'm doing my bit....


Human population grew to 7.7bn this year. Since the beginning of the year another 30 million humans net (c. half the population of UK) are now generating heat and consuming resource. Born now, with modern medicine and technology, you stand a good chance of hitting 100 so if you have very young children or have yet to have them, they are highly likely to have a front row seat to some serious sh*t.


Just reading this thread through for the first time and its a fascinating discussion, funnily enough I picked up on one of your early posts where you basically said too many people just believe what they're told and dont challenge conventional thinking - I agree with that point.

But isnt the population growth point a case in point? On the one hand I'm inclined to believe that increasing human population is the major contributory factor to global warming, or whatever the correct scientific term is. But on the other when you think about it most of these new arrivals are in disproportionately poor countries and therefore their carbon footprint is going to be pretty low would you not think, in comparison to the average American or European, for example?

I think the critical issue is the amount of economic activity generated in any given country / region. We build, drive, travel by air, get goods shipped all round the world, largely to generate economic "growth", as we've all been brainwashed into believing that the higher the quarterly GDP growth rate is the better a world we'll all live in.

Nothing could be further from the truth of course, but the madness of letting liberal economists run the world is the accepted norm and unless that changes (quickly) we're in a lot of bother.

verreli
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Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by verreli »

iainpeden wrote:So, at 61, I have travelled the world, initially without worrying about my carbon footprint; never been really hungry, cold or in danger; probably won't see the ecological armageddon just around the corner; been fortunate enough to have a lifetime career I have enjoyed and made me financially secure (if not rich) and been
lucky enough to see the best airshows and experience Bud and a burger for breakfast at Mildenhall.

Apart from never mastering the use of semi-colons (evidence above), life's been pretty good so far.


...also, had the best of technological and educational innovation. After all, how much better can the average person eat; sleep; sit; travel, etc? A moderately well educated person in the UK effectively lives like a king in this day and age. There's even evidence that things have regressed slightly. No more supersonic travel for the average person for example. Perhaps in the future they'll look back and say children of the 50's/60's lived in peak human civilisation?

verreli
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Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by verreli »

andrewn wrote:But isnt the population growth point a case in point? On the one hand I'm inclined to believe that increasing human population is the major contributory factor to global warming, or whatever the correct scientific term is. But on the other when you think about it most of these new arrivals are in disproportionately poor countries and therefore their carbon footprint is going to be pretty low would you not think, in comparison to the average American or European, for example?

I think the critical issue is the amount of economic activity generated in any given country / region. We build, drive, travel by air, get goods shipped all round the world, largely to generate economic "growth", as we've all been brainwashed into believing that the higher the quarterly GDP growth rate is the better a world we'll all live in.

Nothing could be further from the truth of course, but the madness of letting liberal economists run the world is the accepted norm and unless that changes (quickly) we're in a lot of bother.


You say that population growth is principally in poor countries and you're right however I've been to many of them, Central Africa, Rural Asia, etc. Technology touches them all. i.e. they all know how people of the West live and they want a bit of it too. If I was in their position, I'd be just the same. So, expect a rapid roll out of equivalent standard of living. Added to this, I've been involved with companies that are actively looking at this as a business opportunity.

While increasing GDP per capita is a good indicator of increasing standard of living, your point is highly worthy of debate. I believe in capitalist philosophy however I'm not convinced the balance of our current system is in the right place. That's not to say capitalism doesn't work, more that the meddling and interference with capitalist principals affects the results to the detriment of the average citizen. As with most things, I ask, am I being manipulated and who is benefiting. Economic policy is no different.

FarnboroJohn
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Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by FarnboroJohn »

andrewn wrote:
verreli wrote:
FarnboroJohn wrote:
iainpeden wrote:PM on Radio 4: current discussion on the damage industrial dairy and beef farming is causing through the noxious emissions from cows - somebody on Radio 4 said "fart". :hide:

The only thing that is going to stop this planet becoming a dustbowl is a global wide virus which targets the human species alone.


Agreed, the whole problem is the 7 billion humans. Breeding control on that would solve the whole thing quite fast enough. I'm doing my bit....


Human population grew to 7.7bn this year. Since the beginning of the year another 30 million humans net (c. half the population of UK) are now generating heat and consuming resource. Born now, with modern medicine and technology, you stand a good chance of hitting 100 so if you have very young children or have yet to have them, they are highly likely to have a front row seat to some serious sh*t.


Just reading this thread through for the first time and its a fascinating discussion, funnily enough I picked up on one of your early posts where you basically said too many people just believe what they're told and dont challenge conventional thinking - I agree with that point.

But isnt the population growth point a case in point? On the one hand I'm inclined to believe that increasing human population is the major contributory factor to global warming, or whatever the correct scientific term is. But on the other when you think about it most of these new arrivals are in disproportionately poor countries and therefore their carbon footprint is going to be pretty low would you not think, in comparison to the average American or European, for example?

I think the critical issue is the amount of economic activity generated in any given country / region. We build, drive, travel by air, get goods shipped all round the world, largely to generate economic "growth", as we've all been brainwashed into believing that the higher the quarterly GDP growth rate is the better a world we'll all live in.

Nothing could be further from the truth of course, but the madness of letting liberal economists run the world is the accepted norm and unless that changes (quickly) we're in a lot of bother.


The point about human population is that it affects all the problems heading the planet's way: increased land-use for agriculture and lebensraum at the expense of wildlife and ecosystems: increased global warming from fossil fuels, wood burning, slash-and-burn agriculture, ungulates farting (though what do they think the pre-white-settler American Bison herds did, they weren't domestic.....?) and so on; depleting ocean resources from sharks to squid to bony fish to - well, everything really - at (now) four times the sustainable rate. So anything that negatively affects the increasing human population must be a good thing (I might exclude a nuclear holocaust from that) for so many aspects of the planetary ecosystem that putting on that condom is a no-brainer for any responsible human. Personally I think its almost fine for anyone to party like its 1999 as long as their carbon footprint is the last of their line.

Halve the population, halve the emissions (I'm not talking condoms now) without any further need for legislation. To halve the population, enforce one child per couple. QED. Just for once, the Chinese were right. But even they have given up now....

However, high enough tech reduces the overall carbon footprint (see recent claims about British electricity generation): in third world countries what tech there is rests on less high-tech energy - coal, oil - as well as citizens burning stuff at home directly, wood, buffalo dung, whatever - even before you consider slash and burn and the overall reduction in atmosphere scrubbing that destroying forests causes. So no, I don't think the new arrivals in relatively poor countries have low carbon footprints: and I don't think they care in the way that Western liberals do, either. They also have other nasty habits like eating bushmeat, presenting a direct threat to vertebrate wildlife wherever the practice goes on: so you won't find me giving money to Comic Relief because currently Malaria is one of the few defenders of West African wildlife against the burgeoning human population and I'm not going to fund mosquito nets to reduce it.

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iainpeden
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Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by iainpeden »

"Halve the population, halve the emissions (I'm not talking condoms now) without any further need for legislation. To halve the population, enforce one child per couple. QED. Just for once, the Chinese were right. But even they have given up now...."

Having just got back from China we heard quite a lot about the one child policy.

While it is being relaxed there are still restrictions in place. If, for example, a couple both of whom are the "one child" decide on a family they can have 2 children. If you move away from your registered district/city to work you do not necessarily get access to free health care or education. They have also realised that a gender imbalance is occurring and essentially the centrally dictated plan hasn't worked. We were also told that many Chinese are deciding not to have families due to the cost.

An anecdote from our guide: Due to the high cost of apartments and the dowry system (the man has to provide a flat before a woman will consider marriage), people are working ever longer hours. Combined with the high levels of traffic congestion in the big cities this means they don't have time to cook. Therefore what do they do but order in take-aways!

Oh - and as to using resources; they live their lives with a mobile phone with which everything is organised including payment for goods. We were also on a high speed train (300kph) and on one stretch between Beijing and Xi'an saw a solid block of poly tunnels - visible into the distance - which took 15 minutes to pass.
(Mark Twain: There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are statistics)

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Tommy
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Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by Tommy »

Remember, chaps, this thread is supposed to be about climate change and airshows.

No-one’s fault, but I think this one has strayed.

I’m more than happy for there to be an Off Topic thread about it.

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Ouragan
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Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by Ouragan »

Just been reported on local TV news that the new Lib Dem-led council in Teignmouth feels that the inaugural Teignmouth airshow does not fit in with its green policies and the climate change argument and while this year's show will go ahead, it is not likely to support future events.

PirateTrickster
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Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by PirateTrickster »

You only need to look on Flight Radar to see quite how many planes are in the air at any one time - stopping an airshow is a drop in the ocean.

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Ouragan
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Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by Ouragan »

Perhaps, but Teignmouth's local authority cannot do anything about that. It can, however, do something about an airshow in its area which it believes goes against its environmental policies. As can any local authority that has the same opinion when the organisers ask for permission to close local roads to allow the event to go ahead or request an amount of public money towards staging it.

Stagger2
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Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by Stagger2 »

To quote Spiny Norman's post of 17th May 2019 "The alternative isn't great. Maybe when the waters lapping around our feet while standing at Lakenheath we might think, ah wish I'd done something earlier. That's my rant over!" He was correct! It's happening faster than we thought, anybody at LN for the 'SJ' jets arrival this week had first-hand experience. :whistle:
I'm doing my bit regarding carbon creation by not going to either Dunsfold or Volkel this weekend. Mainly coz the weather's sheite & all the Global Warming is around us & not over us! :mad: :hide:

Airshowhammer

Re: Climate Change - Airshows

Post by Airshowhammer »

Stagger2 wrote:To quote Spiny Norman's post of 17th May 2019 "The alternative isn't great. Maybe when the waters lapping around our feet while standing at Lakenheath we might think, ah wish I'd done something earlier. That's my rant over!" He was correct! It's happening faster than we thought, anybody at LN for the 'SJ' jets arrival this week had first-hand experience. :whistle:
I'm doing my bit regarding carbon creation by not going to either Dunsfold or Volkel this weekend. Mainly coz the weather's sheite & all the Global Warming is around us & not over us! :mad: :hide:


Oh for goodness sake :surrender:

Hands down the most stupid thing i've read on here in a long time and I contribute my fair share!

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