Bye Bye Scampton?

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Dan213
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by Dan213 »

verreli wrote:
Stagger2 wrote:... a distinct possibility that 100 Sqn tasks will be Civilian Contracted & their jets become spares foir the Reds, ...


see ASDOT https://www.topaces.com/page?a=2245&lang=en-CA

The RAF will be a different beast when the T1 retires. It will be the rise of the RPV. What's the purpose of the RAFAT? Recruitment - not needed for a few hundred front line pilots. Hawk sales pitch - not needed. Entertain the public / PR - Given the RAF100 effort, that's not even medium priority. Enjoy them while you can.


RAFAT doesn't just exist to recruit pilots only. The aim is to use them to recruit for all of the RAF trades, hence why many of the other trades available are highlighted in the commentary

verreli
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by verreli »

Dan213 wrote:RAFAT doesn't just exist to recruit pilots only. The aim is to use them to recruit for all of the RAF trades, hence why many of the other trades available are highlighted in the commentary


That's a fair comment but the entire RAF strength is only just over 30,000 and who knows how low that figure will be when the T1 retires. Would they even fill the West Bromwich Albion stadium? The RAFAT has undoubtedly historically been a great recruitment tool but I don't see the justification for the purchase of a fleet of aircraft or for taking the manpower resource from the front line. If the RAF was to continue the Red Arrows post T1 they'd have purchased the T2 airframes that were offered.

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f4phixeruk
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by f4phixeruk »

Would it be wise putting the Reds at Wittering.

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vulcan558
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by vulcan558 »

Honington as always struck me to be a waste of a good complex, with plenty of HAS shelters and conventional
Hangars a good runway and in a quiet location. Perfect for the Reds.

GertrudetheMerciless
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by GertrudetheMerciless »

vulcan558 wrote:Honington as always struck me to be a waste of a good complex, with plenty of HAS shelters and conventional
Hangars a good runway and in a quiet location. Perfect for the Reds.


Apart from proximity to Lakenheath and busy East Anglian airspace.

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harkins
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by harkins »

Lifted this quite from the Scampton airshow thread as it seems more relevant here;
XX752 wrote:
HaveQuick2 wrote:
f-4 wrote: Given the best option is Wittering.....

Absolutely agree. Red Arrows to Wittering is nailed-on IMHO.

Really? - It's proximity to the A1 and a circuit full of Tutors may have a say on why it isn't. Only one of 6 potential homes being looked at......


Six potential homes? Blimey, I genuinely didn't think we had that many airfields left that could realistically be considered. If Wittering's Tutors and the A1 is a problem then it's really hard to think of an alternative.

RAF Leeming: A1, 100 squadron, infrequent exercises.
RAF Honnington: Too close to Lakenheath
RAF Fairford: USAF base and soon to be home to intelligence aircraft.
RAF Valley: Too much training activity with Hawks and Texans.
RAF Marham, RAF Coningsby and RAF Lossiemouth: Front line fighter stations (2 with QRA)
RAF Waddington: Again another station with based intelligence units.
RAF Northolt: Convenient for flypasts up the Mall but otherwise no chance.
RAF Brize Norton: Far too busy.
RAF Cranwell: The A17 has been cited as an issue there. Seems like the least bad of all the options though.

Are we really sure that they won't just axe the Red Arrows on the basis there is nowhere for them to go?

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Arthur Tee
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by Arthur Tee »

harkins wrote:Are we really sure that they won't just axe the Red Arrows on the basis there is nowhere for them to go?


I believe you may have hit the nail on the head there...

In this age of continued austerity - how can we possibly justify their existence?

Arthur
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boff180
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by boff180 »

Wittering is a complete no-go.

I'd advise those that think it is to read the disgusting noise nuisance case of Dennis v MoD (2003) which was one of the main reasons the Harriers moved out.

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cambo007
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by cambo007 »

I wonder if there's maybe a possibility that rather than ditching the RAFAT altogether they become a shadow of their former selves, for example they fly active duty aircraft much in the same way the RNZAF did with Kiwi Red, and I believe still do with the Black Falcons. I think the RAAF Roulettes do as well. Obviously this would then mean displays become less "dynamic" as there would likely be less training time and fewer resources (if any) dedicated, and perhaps no longer an Exercise Spring Hawk.

There'd also be the effect of fewer appearances, meaning perhaps they'd be limited to full displays at a few "marquee" events (RIAT, Cosford, Scottish National Air Show, Swansea and Bournemouth spring to mind as likely contenders). Everyone else just gets a close formation flypast.

Just spit balling, not really sure of the details of whether or not this would even be a possibility.

edit: and by "active duty aircraft" I mean aircraft that perform a day job other than being part of the display team

edit2: Changed Red Checkers to Black Falcons

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by Brevet Cable »

As posted on another forum......what about Warton?
After all, BAE get a lot of publicity out of RAFAT ( and BAE already sponsor them, don't they? )
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starbuck
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by starbuck »

Why not Akrotiri? Have them based there 7 months of the year and then bring them over for the summer season when they can lodge at one or more of the UK bases previously mentioned.

BossMann
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by BossMann »

There seems to be lots of monemtum gathering from the people of lincolshire to try and over turn the decision by the MOD, with over 12K people signed petitions to keep Scampton open

https://www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/news ... ow-1827462
https://thelincolnite.co.uk/2018/07/ove ... -scampton/

In 2013 Lincolshire county council-led multi-million pound plan to turn the base into the UK's top aviation heritage centre as well as hosting regular air shows, exhibitions and even a hotel, helping to secure the Red Arrows' future as posted above

Tony McArdle, then chief executive of Lincolnshire County Council, said: “We’ve believed in this vision for a while – now it’s time to see what it would actually look like.

"It’s a very ambitious plan for a huge, unique, national attraction, with huge economic benefits for Lincolnshire.”

Also
https://www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/news ... on-1825510

Kenneth Bannerman, founder of the Airfields of Britain Conservation Trust, argues that public opinion could help save Scampton from closure.

He said he would like to keep the Red Arrows there - but says the base must not close.

"The situation facing Scampton is terrible," he said.

"The absolutely top priority would be to keep it open as an airfield, at the very least a commercial one, and secure it as home to the Red Arrows.

"We simply cannot afford to lose this place. The base is in very severe trouble but it is not the end.

"The way to go about helping to save it is simply to highlight the phenomenal all-round value of Scampton.

"If you build up a serious level of public support the politicians, if they have any sense, cannot ignore this groundswell of support."

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harkins
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by harkins »

starbuck wrote:Why not Akrotiri? Have them based there 7 months of the year and then bring them over for the summer season when they can lodge at one or more of the UK bases previously mentioned.

That's actually a great idea, and who wouldn't rather live in the sunny Med than wet damp grey Britain? Although, relocating the families overseas for 7 months would likely go down like a lead balloon in truth.

boff180 wrote:Wittering is a complete no-go.

I'd advise those that think it is to read the disgusting noise nuisance case of Dennis v MoD (2003) which was one of the main reasons the Harriers moved out.

Just read up on that boff and it's terrible. So his family (parents) moved there in '63 whilst Wittering was already home to two squadrons of Victor B.2s packing nukes on QRA. They had a permanent presence of Victors, Hunters and Harriers at Wittering and yet decided in 2003 that it was time to take legal action. Appalling. Farmer Dennis would have done well to remember that if it wasn't for the RAF that his 17th century manor house would have probably not been his home but that of an Obergruppenführer or something and he'd be speaking German!

BossMann
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by BossMann »

If the MOD wanted to make money they surely RAF Northolt would get more money than RAF Scampton, given that it is in a prime location in London surrounded by houses?

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harkins
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by harkins »

I'm another that thinks Honington looks a good option. It's not that close to Lakenheath and certainly not as close as Mildenhall is. In fact it's 10 miles between Honington and Lakenheath and less than five between Northolt and Heathrow. It still looks in great condition based on Google maps and I was under the impression that it had been under better maintenance than many other RAF stations. In fact, isn't it the owner of the newest HAS complex on any RAF station? It could also be a convenient RLG for Lakenheath (post Mildenhall) and Marham could it not? And again based on Google maps, it doesn't appear to have had taxiways removed or diverted or be covered in vehicles.

BossMann wrote:If the MOD wanted to make money they surely RAF Northolt would get more money than RAF Scampton, given that it is in a prime location in London surrounded by houses?

That's another great point. Worth a small fortune and doesn't seem to do much that couldn't be done using other airports around London. London City for the odd Royal happening for example?

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Arthur Tee wrote:
harkins wrote:Are we really sure that they won't just axe the Red Arrows on the basis there is nowhere for them to go?


I believe you may have hit the nail on the head there...

In this age of continued austerity - how can we possibly justify their existence?

Arthur


As this is a aviation enthusiasts' forum based in the UK I'd say how can we not?

The Arrows cost £9million a year - as against the defence budget of £35 billion. There are a hundred things I'd cut before the air force's only (multi) jet display team. The RAF has to justify how its money is spent and as it no longer has At Home days, the Arrows serve to show the professionalism, skill and work rate (often 2 shows a day up and down the country) of the current air force personnel.

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chrisward123
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by chrisward123 »

Brevet Cable wrote:As posted on another forum......what about Warton?
After all, BAE get a lot of publicity out of RAFAT ( and BAE already sponsor them, don't they? )


In the short term Warton could temporarily house the Reds but with a big order of Typhoons/Hawks due to emerge over the next few years for Qatar (plus any future orders) and limited available space, I would definitely rule a move to Warton out.
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wezgulf3
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by wezgulf3 »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Arthur Tee wrote:
harkins wrote:Are we really sure that they won't just axe the Red Arrows on the basis there is nowhere for them to go?


I believe you may have hit the nail on the head there...

In this age of continued austerity - how can we possibly justify their existence?

Arthur


As this is a aviation enthusiasts' forum based in the UK I'd say how can we not?

The Arrows cost £9million a year - as against the defence budget of £35 billion. There are a hundred things I'd cut before the air force's only (multi) jet display team. The RAF has to justify how its money is spent and as it no longer has At Home days, the Arrows serve to show the professionalism, skill and work rate (often 2 shows a day up and down the country) of the current air force personnel.


I think the public backlash to the Reds being axed would be huge.

Having read about Dennis I hope they go to Wittering!

Wes...

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Gonzo230
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by Gonzo230 »

BossMann wrote:If the MOD wanted to make money they surely RAF Northolt would get more money than RAF Scampton, given that it is in a prime location in London surrounded by houses?


Not when Northolt is the only RAF station that turns a profit for the RAF!

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Brevet Cable
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by Brevet Cable »

harkins wrote:Farmer Dennis would have done well to remember that if it wasn't for the RAF that his 17th century manor house would have probably not been his home but that of an Obergruppenführer or something and he'd be speaking German!

The two senior services would rightly disagree with that statement.
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harkins
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by harkins »

Brevet Cable wrote:
harkins wrote:Farmer Dennis would have done well to remember that if it wasn't for the RAF that his 17th century manor house would have probably not been his home but that of an Obergruppenführer or something and he'd be speaking German!

The two senior services would rightly disagree with that statement.

I didn’t say exclusively thanks to the RAF but, had the Luftwaffe ruled the skies over England in 41 it’s probably fair to say that the two senior services would have had a job on their hands at that point in time. My point really though is that Dennis was an idiot and an ingrate. A popular term on this site when critising others is that they’re entitled. Seems to me that Dennis was feeling entitled.

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CJS
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by CJS »

Why not Conningsby or Shawbury for the RAFAT?

The BBMF already fly from the former, so the excuse of it being the way of the QRA force wouldn't be a problem. And Shawbury hosts fast jet displays for Cosford, so that would be a possibility too, wouldn't it?

But I don't claim to have any knowledge of either base really, there's probably something obvious I haven't thought of!
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Binbrook 01
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by Binbrook 01 »

Simple answer with another Sqn soon to appear is that the place is pretty much full of Typhoons.

Aside from that, where are you gonna put them overnight as nearly all the hangars are full.

And the HAS site if not in use by the 2 current operational Sqn jets, is also used for storage (Tranche 1 Twin sticks and others awaiting a slot into TMF, oh and the other none flyers)

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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by jingernut »

House the Reds at Benson! My kids would love it. :biggrin:

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trebleone
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Re: Bye Bye Scampton?

Post by trebleone »

Could Chivenor make a home for RAFAT, perhaps?