Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

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boff180
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Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by boff180 »

According to a report in the press, the CEO of Kemble has offered one of the silver PR.9 Canberra stored at the airfield after its short warbird career to the Indian Air Force Historic Flight as a gift.

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/07 ... force.html

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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by F-5F »

Couple of questions:-

Is this the aircraft not considered by VTTST?

Was it for sale at the time VTTST purchased WK163 (I seem to remember it was)?

If it was for sale and now being offered as a flyer "free of charge" to India then, although controversial, why is it not being offered to VTTST (or any other potential UK operator? VTTST whilst not being on mine, or many others Christmas Card List, does have recent experience of maintaining and operating a multi-engined large jet aircraft - and it would keep the aircraft in the UK.

It just seems odd being offered to an overseas air force free of charge when we may have the ability to operate it in the UK. Maybe VTTST were offered an opportunity and turned it down. Perhaps somebody will have more information on this. Just seems unfair to give it away to an operator such as India and never likely see it again in the UK. India are a very poor supporter of RIAT - even in the RAF 100 year.

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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by Beefy »

And plenty of "Foreign Aid" monies sent their way to encourage them (er, sorry I mean bribe them) to buy the Eurfofighter... Oh, hang on, I forgot, they took the cash and decided to buy Rafale instead. Another good use of Tax Payers money. Well done @UKgov :clap:

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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by Stagger2 »

Don't know this situation chapter & verse, but I do know the 'potentially' flyable & only remaining airworthy Canberra PR9 – XH134 (G-OMHD ) was offered, estimated at £50,000-70,000 (just needing scheduled maintenance, its annual revalidation service plus some other detailed works?) but failed to achieve a mere £45,000 reserve at Bonhams, Goodwood auction in March 2016!
It's unfortunate to say the least that this was not seen as the bargain it was in the post-Shoreham aftermath. Subsequently VTTS selected the 'money-pit' Canberra example purely on the back of provenance, historically a more significant airframe, BUT only to the most knowledgeable of enthusiasts. NOT to Joe Public who would need to dig deeper for cash than for the iconic Vulcan 'money-monster'! Surely a flying Canberra trumps an historic mark in the eyes of the general populace?
So, we come to the question why is it offered free to the IAF Museum? One assumes that the parking/storage costs since the failed auction have (or have not?) been met by the Receivers acting for Creditors of the former Midair organisation. Somewhere along the line the Canberra ownership, maybe in lieu of fees has passed to Ms. Suzannah Harvey, CEO Cotswold Airport & clearly unable to realise her assets as previously done :shock: has elected to rid herself of this burden in the most tax efficient expeditious fashion? allegedly & IMO :hide:
Gifting vintage aircraft to the IAF is really not so different to the millions of GBP gifted annually in Foreign Aid to India to ensure their current Air Force is much better equipped than ours. Meanwhile, their population goes without food, medicine, basics & the UK population goes without homes, an NHS & any hope of a rapid change in this arrangement! :mad:
But Hey! It's just a crappy old jet we're fretting about! Mustn't grumble! :surrender:

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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

F-5F wrote:why is it not being offered to VTTST (or any other potential UK operator?


Because Bob-A-Job and his cronies can't even afford to put a roof over the three former aircraft they're allegedly taking care of at the moment. Giving it to India at least gives this PR.9 a fighting chance - rather better than the prospects facing the Doncaster hulks.

Quite why VTTS went for an airframe that required years of restoration over one which was as close to "off-the-peg" as a classic jet can be is one of the tawdry side-issues that will have light cast upon it in the fullness of time. A reason given at the time was that they required a two-seat version. The 2016 accounts value WK163 at "cost" which is stated as £51,826 (the same accounts, laughably, value XH558 at £750,000) which seems an awful lot of a charity's money when a near-flyer was available at Kemble for a ball-park figure of £50,000?

Source: http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends48/0001101948_AC_20161031_E_C.pdf (Page 31 "Heritage Assets")
Last edited by Dan O'Hagan on Mon 30 Jul 2018, 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by st24 »

Why would India want a Canberra version they've never operated?? Unless they intend to hack it into a B(I)58?? And we've seen Indian hack jobs... :sad:
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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by Alanko »

st24 wrote:Why would India want a Canberra version they've never operated??


Because there is more to life than pathetic rivet-counting. I doubt anybody offered a freebie of this magnitude would turn it down for such silly reasons. Perhaps the Indians simply would prefer to get any sort of historic aircraft in the air, rather than obsess about period accuracy.

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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by farnboroughrob »

The Indians seem to have money to burn as far as their historic flight in concerned so getting it back in the air should be no issue. Would it not be better that it flies with them, rather than sitting at Kemble for a few more years and heading to the scrap man? It has clearly had no interest from UK parties. The Indians operated the similar looking B (I)58, these and the PR9 were always the ugly marks to me though.

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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by The Baron »

Don't worry. We'll soon have a squadron of near identical butchered T.9 Spitfires and a butchered Hurricane trundling around.
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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by toom317 »

F-5F wrote:If it was for sale and now being offered as a flyer "free of charge" to India then, although controversial, why is it not being offered to VTTST


Seriously! Do you think it would be in good hands with that lot?
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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by F-5F »

toom317 wrote:
F-5F wrote:If it was for sale and now being offered as a flyer "free of charge" to India then, although controversial, why is it not being offered to VTTST


Seriously! Do you think it would be in good hands with that lot?


You cut my quote short to suit your comment. I stated "any other UK operator". I am more upset that it is being given to India "free of charge".

I agree VTTST are not the best choice but shouldn't this aircraft remain in the UK, even if only in a museum. The Indian Air Force couldn't even be bothered to attend RAF 100 at Fairford!! I know this is not strictly relevant but what do we owe them? Nothing I would say.

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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by jasonT1981 »

And to think this only happened 4 years ago. August 9th 2014.

Image

It will be very sad if the Canberra leaves the UK.

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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by Tommy »

I think India is trying to build itself a heritage flight. Back in February 2018, it was the IAF's ambition to send a Spitfire and Hurricane from India to Britain for restoration before shipping them back (which is good, y'know, putting money and work into specialist UK restoration companies).

I'm all for it, if that's what they want. The machine's been languishing in a hangar since the end of 2014. No-one has come forward to buy it. VTTS squandered their opportunity (that was the tipping point for me with that organisation, I was done with it at that point), and no-one else has made a success of it. Why not gift it somewhere where it might be maintained and flown more regularly?

F-5F wrote:Just seems unfair to give it away to an operator such as India and never likely see it again in the UK. India are a very poor supporter of RIAT - even in the RAF 100 year.


VTTS could have bought it, but chose the different and decidedly non-airworthy Canberra instead. So it's not seen in the UK at the moment. It's not been seen at air displays for four years. Instead of thinking that we deserve everything first, and *then* repay other nations, maybe, just maybe, stuff like this might improve relations so that India do indeed support UK airshows in the future?

Warbirds move around. Sometimes it's sad to see them go. I was gutted to see Ferocious Frankie go to Turkey, but at the same time we've recently received former No Guts back from the US. It's a fluid process. Man alive, a Canberra sitting in a hangar for 4 years seen by absolutely no-one is hardly a loss to the current airshow circuit, is it? What is it that everyone is proposing? That it sit for another four years in a hangar at Kemble? If the owners of it want to gift it, then why not? Like I said, we have no idea of the positive things gifting such a machine might bring. Perhaps the hangar space that is being used up is now more valuable than the aircraft itself? Perhaps the owners want to build and/or maintain goodwill with like-minded colleagues in India? Maybe they just want shot of a machine that could still educate and inspire audiences, but no-one in the UK has bothered with it so hell, it might as well go and fly somewhere else?

And, side note, why is it with anything to do with India that sodding "foreign aid :mad: " comments crop up? If you want to have that discussion, have it, separately, and move on. So monotonous that it must infect every facet of anything to do with "India". :roll:

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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by clearstone »

I'd question the term "gift" unless Kemble are willing to pay to get the airframe either airworthy or recovered by road to wherever it can be made airworthy. Seems to me more like a long shot at trying to get rid of an airframe no-one wants.

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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by kinglear27 »

Tommy wrote:What is it that everyone is proposing? That it sit for another four years in a hangar at Kemble? :roll:

It is not even in a hangar at Kemble anymore. It has been parked outside next to XH135 for several months now, so will only deteriorate if left for a long time with no maintenance. At least XH134 has a canopy cover on though, unlike XH135.

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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by Stagger2 »

So there you have it. Not taking-up valuable hangar space at all, just occupying real estate that could be used for profitable purposes. There has been no projected timescale seen for such a transfer to the IAF Museum, but you may guess they (Cotswold Airport) will want it sorted asap.
I can't really be sure of the 'real' motive for this gift, but I bumped into this story from almost exactly a year back....
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/31-ex-fr ... ia.509328/
Really only serves to confirm what most people allegedly already know, that no business happens in India without 'greasing palms', miscellaneous freebies & more than a smidgin of butt-kissing!
The real agenda for the Jaguar bequest is to open the door for Rafale sales, can't believe a Canberra nobody seems to want is gonna sell may Typhoons? :dizzy:

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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by Alanko »

Tommy wrote:And, side note, why is it with anything to do with India that sodding "foreign aid :mad: " comments crop up?


I'm surprised that, as a member of staff, you are surprised at this given the core demographic of the spotter community. :lmao:

The heaps of peak Daily Mail thought process and behaviour that passes as regular discourse between here and 'Jet Blast' on PPRUNE has somehow passed you by? :shock:

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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by iaint »

F-5F wrote:
toom317 wrote:
F-5F wrote:If it was for sale and now being offered as a flyer "free of charge" to India then, although controversial, why is it not being offered to VTTST


Seriously! Do you think it would be in good hands with that lot?


You cut my quote short to suit your comment. I stated "any other UK operator". I am more upset that it is being given to India "free of charge".

I agree VTTST are not the best choice but shouldn't this aircraft remain in the UK, even if only in a museum. The Indian Air Force couldn't even be bothered to attend RAF 100 at Fairford!! I know this is not strictly relevant but what do we owe them? Nothing I would say.


Don’t understand the reason for your response, upset that a private business is dealing with assets they own as they choose? Do you have any vested interest in the aircraft? What does it matter to you if the owner makes £1m or nothing out of a deal? You won’t see anything out of it.

I also have absolutely no idea what India’s appearances at RIAT have to do with the price of fish either.. as I state above the owner is well within their rights to do what ever they please. They could have sold it for scrap, at least it remains an aircraft.

I’m not even going to comment on the “what do we owe them” comment :clown:
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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by Dan O'Hagan »

kinglear27 wrote:
Tommy wrote:What is it that everyone is proposing? That it sit for another four years in a hangar at Kemble? :roll:

It is not even in a hangar at Kemble anymore. It has been parked outside next to XH135 for several months now, so will only deteriorate if left for a long time with no maintenance. At least XH134 has a canopy cover on though, unlike XH135.


I had no idea XH135 was still there. I thought I'd read about it being roaded out to a new home a couple of years ago. Northern Ireland rings a bell. Sale must have fallen through.

Not my picture, but it looks like the snow last year left it sat on its tail...

ImageXH135 Canberra PR.9 Royal Air Force by Chris Chennell, on Flickr

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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by jasonT1981 »

Dan O'Hagan wrote:
kinglear27 wrote:
Tommy wrote:What is it that everyone is proposing? That it sit for another four years in a hangar at Kemble? :roll:

It is not even in a hangar at Kemble anymore. It has been parked outside next to XH135 for several months now, so will only deteriorate if left for a long time with no maintenance. At least XH134 has a canopy cover on though, unlike XH135.


I had no idea XH135 was still there. I thought I'd read about it being roaded out to a new home a couple of years ago. Northern Ireland rings a bell. Sale must have fallen through.
r


It is XH131 that is in Northern Ireland, with the Ulster Aviation Society.

http://ulsteraviationsociety.org/canberra-pr9

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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by F-5F »

iaint wrote:
F-5F wrote:
toom317 wrote:
F-5F wrote:If it was for sale and now being offered as a flyer "free of charge" to India then, although controversial, why is it not being offered to VTTST


Seriously! Do you think it would be in good hands with that lot?


You cut my quote short to suit your comment. I stated "any other UK operator". I am more upset that it is being given to India "free of charge".

I agree VTTST are not the best choice but shouldn't this aircraft remain in the UK, even if only in a museum. The Indian Air Force couldn't even be bothered to attend RAF 100 at Fairford!! I know this is not strictly relevant but what do we owe them? Nothing I would say.


Don’t understand the reason for your response, upset that a private business is dealing with assets they own as they choose? Do you have any vested interest in the aircraft? What does it matter to you if the owner makes £1m or nothing out of a deal? You won’t see anything out of it.

I also have absolutely no idea what India’s appearances at RIAT have to do with the price of fish either.. as I state above the owner is well within their rights to do what ever they please. They could have sold it for scrap, at least it remains an aircraft.

I’m not even going to comment on the “what do we owe them” comment :clown:


Cheers for calling me a clown. And you are a so called "staffer"!! Thought opinions could be expressed on here. Obviously not unless you agree with the heavy hand of the staffers!! Idiot. I bow down to your greater knowledge. :facepalm: :loser:

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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by jalfrezi »

F-5F wrote:
iaint wrote:
F-5F wrote:
toom317 wrote:
F-5F wrote:If it was for sale and now being offered as a flyer "free of charge" to India then, although controversial, why is it not being offered to VTTST


Seriously! Do you think it would be in good hands with that lot?


You cut my quote short to suit your comment. I stated "any other UK operator". I am more upset that it is being given to India "free of charge".

I agree VTTST are not the best choice but shouldn't this aircraft remain in the UK, even if only in a museum. The Indian Air Force couldn't even be bothered to attend RAF 100 at Fairford!! I know this is not strictly relevant but what do we owe them? Nothing I would say.


Don’t understand the reason for your response, upset that a private business is dealing with assets they own as they choose? Do you have any vested interest in the aircraft? What does it matter to you if the owner makes £1m or nothing out of a deal? You won’t see anything out of it.

I also have absolutely no idea what India’s appearances at RIAT have to do with the price of fish either.. as I state above the owner is well within their rights to do what ever they please. They could have sold it for scrap, at least it remains an aircraft.

I’m not even going to comment on the “what do we owe them” comment :clown:


Cheers for calling me a clown. And you are a so called "staffer"!! Thought opinions could be expressed on here. Obviously not unless you agree with the heavy hand of the staffers!! Idiot. I bow down to your greater knowledge. :facepalm: :loser:


I think you should look up India's involvement in the two World Wars before making comments like 'what do we owe them'. Your comment was borderline xenophobic, so I'm surprised you didn't expect a response.

Of course opinions can be expressed on here, but if you make a narrow minded remark don't be surprised if others voice their opinion as well. 'Staffers' are just as entitled to their opinions as you are.

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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by Wissam24 »

F-5F wrote:"I thought opinions could be expressed on here, unless they call me out on my extreme views in which case I can't handle it"
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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by F-5F »

jalfrezi wrote:
F-5F wrote:
iaint wrote:
F-5F wrote:
toom317 wrote:
F-5F wrote:If it was for sale and now being offered as a flyer "free of charge" to India then, although controversial, why is it not being offered to VTTST


Seriously! Do you think it would be in good hands with that lot?


You cut my quote short to suit your comment. I stated "any other UK operator". I am more upset that it is being given to India "free of charge".

I agree VTTST are not the best choice but shouldn't this aircraft remain in the UK, even if only in a museum. The Indian Air Force couldn't even be bothered to attend RAF 100 at Fairford!! I know this is not strictly relevant but what do we owe them? Nothing I would say.


Don’t understand the reason for your response, upset that a private business is dealing with assets they own as they choose? Do you have any vested interest in the aircraft? What does it matter to you if the owner makes £1m or nothing out of a deal? You won’t see anything out of it.

I also have absolutely no idea what India’s appearances at RIAT have to do with the price of fish either.. as I state above the owner is well within their rights to do what ever they please. They could have sold it for scrap, at least it remains an aircraft.

I’m not even going to comment on the “what do we owe them” comment :clown:


Cheers for calling me a clown. And you are a so called "staffer"!! Thought opinions could be expressed on here. Obviously not unless you agree with the heavy hand of the staffers!! Idiot. I bow down to your greater knowledge. :facepalm: :loser:


I think you should look up India's involvement in the two World Wars before making comments like 'what do we owe them'. Your comment was borderline xenophobic, so I'm surprised you didn't expect a response.

Of course opinions can be expressed on here, but if you make a narrow minded remark don't be surprised if others voice their opinion as well. 'Staffers' are just as entitled to their opinions as you are.


Wow!! Well that flushed out the staffers! They don't like it up em!! I suggest you look up the word Xenophobic as in no way can my post be classified as such.

Once again if the staffers views or comments are challenged they remind us all that it is their ball and they can take it home if they want.

Love it. :lmao: :clap:

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Re: Another jet warbird gone? Canberra to India?

Post by MiG_Eater »

Presuming the 'xenophobic' comment has been deleted as I literally cannot see anything that even approaches this. Genuinely confused...

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