The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

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boff180
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The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by boff180 »

Either RAF Waddington, RAF Leeming or RAF Wittering!

Confirmed by the Minister to a Lincolnshire MP by letter and reported by the Lincolnite this evening.

Andy

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Tmyers123
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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by Tmyers123 »

Can’t see them moving to Waddington, just seems like a weird mix having the Reds with the ISTAR Force. Leeming makes the most sense IMO with the rest of our Hawk T.1 fleet being based there.

But maybe that’s just a bit of wishful thinking, if they move to Leeming they’ll only be a 45 minute drive away from me. :biggrin:

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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by GertrudetheMerciless »

Waddington is hardly suffering with Heathrow levels of traffic, and in the time frames being discussed probably has the pan and hangar space.

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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by Unknown74 »

Quite surprised no mention of Cranwell?

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Danny
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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by Danny »

If it is Waddington, could they still use the airspace over Scampton?
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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by GertrudetheMerciless »

Danny wrote:If it is Waddington, could they still use the airspace over Scampton?


In theory yes, as long as there's still an MoD presence and the infrastructure required to support their flying activities over the airfield. However, if and when the airfield starts being sold off, they'll need to go elsewhere.

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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by GertrudetheMerciless »

Unknown74 wrote:Quite surprised no mention of Cranwell?


With modern day ATC regulation and the concentration of training aircraft, I suspect trying to fit them in at Cranwell - although it was done before - is not a prudent solution.

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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by boff180 »

Thinking about this logically...

Waddington-pros
Can use the airspace over Scampton
Squadron personnel won’t need to relocate.
Keeps the Reds in Lincolnshire.

Waddington-cons
Will require transit to suitable practice airspace.
Limited spare hangar space due to number of units already on base.
Base security requirements limit visitors.

Wittering-pros
Base infrastructure available.
Empty airspace over both Wittering and Cottesmore available.

Wittering-cons
The A1 poses a risk to landing aircraft
Display airspace over Wittering limited due to the A1
Reds pose a safety issue to drivers on the A1 (distraction)
Base has historic noise abatement issues with neighbours on approach limiting fast jet operations - particularly at the weekend.
Too far for Reds to travel - personell have to relocate?

Leeming-pros
Already a Hawk T1 main operating base - support infrastructure already in situ
Base has the capacity to accommodate the squadron with hangars.
Has the perfect practice airfield with active runways near-by at Topcliffe.

Leeming-cons
Orientation with the A1 makes displaying over the base impossible.
Families would need to relocate.
Would operations be distracting to drivers?
Weather conditions the further north being less reliable.
Longer transits to most airshows - increased fuel usage.

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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by GertrudetheMerciless »

boff180 wrote:Thinking about this logically...

Waddington-cons
Will require transit to suitable practice airspace.
Limited spare hangar space due to number of units already on base.
Base security requirements limit visitors.


It’s not that bad. They’d just need escorting well like any other front line base, or have access via another mean. Either possible. If they use a 313 type complex remotely located the visitor numbers may drop anyway.

As for hangar space, depends on the timeframe, or building/relocating a new one etc.

Wittering-pros
Base infrastructure available.
Empty airspace over both Wittering and Cottesmore available.

[/quote]

I’m not sure either are valid. The infra is now largely logistics based. The only hangar currently for aircraft has been set up for Tutors, with hangarettes build inside.

The airspace at Wittering certainly isn’t empty either. Considering the issues with pilot training they may wish to avoid creating more bu trying to fit 9 Hawks around 20 Tutors! The airspace could exist perhaps at Cottesmore but the issue is getting in and out of Wittering.

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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by The Baron »

So basically none of the alternative locations are as suitable as Scampton.
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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by f-4 »

Andy has summed up the pros and cons well. My only comment is that the Wittering noise issue was Harrier specific (low, slow on final approach over Barnack) and the Reds won't paint the same footprint. The really sensible choice would be to reactivate Cottesmore's runway, shiny new hangar near the old TTTE pan and bespoke entrance off Thistleton lane. Runway lights would need reinstalling but apart from that it's good to go with sufficient display space between the runway and the villages to the north. I very rarely see the Army utilising the runway and taxiways (I drive past every day) so they should be content with bimbling around the old Harrier ASP. In the words of Capt Picard, Make it so! :biggrin:

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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by GertrudetheMerciless »

The Baron wrote:So basically none of the alternative locations are as suitable as Scampton.


Of course not. That’s why the still used Scampton’s overhead last time it closed! :)

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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by BossMann »

The Baron wrote:So basically none of the alternative locations are as suitable as Scampton.


Maybe after the MOD have wasted lots of taxpayers money on feasibility studies etc.. they may come to the same conclusion lol.

The money they are wasting on these studies would be better spent on keeping/ maintaining RAF Scampton plus its training airspace for the Reds.

Both RAF Waddington and RAF Leeming have both held airshows - has RAF Wittering ever held an air show??? I know it was being considered for RIAT 2000/ 2001 that eventually went to RAF Cottesmore

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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by GertrudetheMerciless »

BossMann wrote:
The Baron wrote:So basically none of the alternative locations are as suitable as Scampton.


Maybe after the MOD have wasted lots of taxpayers money on feasibility studies etc.. they may come to the same conclusion lol.

The money they are wasting on these studies would be better spent on keeping/ maintaining RAF Scampton plus its training airspace for the Reds.

Both RAF Waddington and RAF Leeming have both held airshows - has RAF Wittering ever held an air show??? I know it was being considered for RIAT 2000/ 2001 that eventually went to RAF Cottesmore


Holding an air show over a weekend is quite a different proposition to 6 months of 3 or 4 x daily practices! :)

Sadly Scampton will go this time. It’s been allowed to degrade, it’s in varying states of decay, the runway needs doing. I think the economic realities are being massively underestimated; You’re looking at 10s of millions of pounds to keep it going in the short term, let alone the long term (circa.£7-9m running costs per annum, plus new runway etc). That’s money that could be spent ensuring from line bases, ones with thousands of personnel serving there, have adequate and properly maintained facilities (accommodation, messes, gyms, medical facilities, swimming pools etc).

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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by BossMann »

In 2012 when the Korean Black Eagles were based at RAF Leeming where did they go to practise their display if the airspace above Leeming is unsuitable ???

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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by boff180 »

Things have changed since Shoreham.

Displaying over or near a major trunk road is no longer considered acceptable.

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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by BossMann »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2xizpIB-lU

According to this footage of the RAF Leeming Air show in 1995 the display area was on the A1M side of the airfield as opposed to the hangar side....

I would have thought that the hangar side would have been safer even pre-shoreham times

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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by clearstone »

The project to move the Red Arrows does not just include the base, it also includes the opening (or closure depending on how you look at it) of a new training area for the team. It does not necessarily need to be over the operating airfield.

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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by The Baron »

clearstone wrote:The project to move the Red Arrows does not just include the base, it also includes the opening (or closure depending on how you look at it) of a new training area for the team. It does not necessarily need to be over the operating airfield.


Which then includes added transit time and fuel costs, not to mention airframe hours. Then there's the issue of moving personnel ie Red 10 and the camera crew, from the briefing to the practice area.
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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by BossMann »

Given the above................

Does it not make sense for the training airspace to be above the base airfield??

also if the training airspace is far from the base airfield what would happen if one of the jets needed to land in an emergency???

When a few years ago the Reds were going to move to Waddington what was the plan for the training airspace???

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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by st24 »

Well there doesn't seem to be any issues at Tanagra.... :whistle: :wink:
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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by GertrudetheMerciless »

BossMann wrote:Given the above................

Does it not make sense for the training airspace to be above the base airfield??

also if the training airspace is far from the base airfield what would happen if one of the jets needed to land in an emergency???



1. Yes, but there aren’t many airfields left and it’s almost impossible to give the virtual exclusivity required.

2. Divert. Maybe forced landing. Maybe bang out!

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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by CJS »

BossMann wrote:Given the above................

Does it not make sense for the training airspace to be above the base airfield??

also if the training airspace is far from the base airfield what would happen if one of the jets needed to land in an emergency???

When a few years ago the Reds were going to move to Waddington what was the plan for the training airspace???


Presumably, so long as there was a runway of some description, they could land there in an emergency? Might not be as convenient, but I don't imagine that makes much difference in an emergency, surely? I've not seen any suggestions of them training over open countryside. :dunno:
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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by motormouser »

Of course ref.Waddo,the A15 will be diverted in a year or so,so the road at the end of the runway will be much quieter?

Edited to add,after looking at the plans,the A15 will still pass the end of the runway! :clown:

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Re: The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

Post by Berf »

For anyone wishing to follow the airspace change process https://airspacechange.caa.co.uk/PublicProposalArea?pID=105

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