The Red Arrows will be moving to.....

[GertrudetheMerciless]

For anyone wishing to follow the airspace change process https://airspacechange.caa.co.uk/PublicProposalArea?pID=105

The documents are well worth reading, particularly those from the end of March.

[Berf]

Latest

The RAFAT ACP has been paused due to on-going RAF discussion regarding the airspace options development criteria. A new timeline will be established once resolved. An update will be provided in April 2020.

= there's no room anywhere and we don't know what to do now....

[harkins]

I'm sure the MOD and maybe even the RAF big wigs would love to axe them as it'd be a huge saving. Probably just a little concerned about the backlash from various quarters.

[Stagger2]

Andy has summed up the pros and cons well. My only comment is that the Wittering noise issue was Harrier specific (low, slow on final approach over Barnack) and the Reds won't paint the same footprint. The really sensible choice would be to reactivate Cottesmore's runway, shiny new hangar near the old TTTE pan and bespoke entrance off Thistleton lane. Runway lights would need reinstalling but apart from that it's good to go with sufficient display space between the runway and the villages to the north. I very rarely see the Army utilising the runway and taxiways (I drive past every day) so they should be content with bimbling around the old Harrier ASP. In the words of Capt Picard, Make it so!

Digging-up this post from last year (my Edit), it seems one of the best ideas given the lack of options. Not a bad location geographically for air-show transits & continuing the current theme of re-using runways at former RAF bases given over to the Army. Similar to Leuchars (Northern QRA) Kinloss, Abingdon (to an extent) & Chivenor (occasionally). Beggars can't be Choosers!

[jules48]

Last I heard via FC they were moving to Valley which makes sense.

Dont shoot the messenger

[CJS]

Latest

The RAFAT ACP has been paused due to on-going RAF discussion regarding the airspace options development criteria. A new timeline will be established once resolved. An update will be provided in April 2020.

= there's no room anywhere and we don't know what to do now....

I'm not sure your = is accurate. Surely, in terms of space, there are plenty of places that could accommodate whatever it is: 12 or so jets, pilots, ground crew, office staff, time and airspace to fly in...

It's not at if there's nowhere, so I imagine it's more that various options are being considered.

As for harkins' post speculating on the future of the RAFAT full stop - seriously?

[GertrudetheMerciless]

Last I heard via FC they were moving to Valley which makes sense.

Dont shoot the messenger

Training bases and the Reds don’t necessarily mix very well. I’d be surprised if they move West of the border.

The airspace issue, and access too and from their home airfield will probably be the biggest considerations.

[The Baron]

Imagine the horrendous journey that the ground support would have to make every weekend if RAFAT based out of Valley.

[Cole]

Imagine the horrendous journey that the ground support would have to make every weekend if RAFAT based out of Valley.

Took the words straight from my mouth...or keyboard?

[Berf]

Latest

The RAFAT ACP has been paused due to on-going RAF discussion regarding the airspace options development criteria. A new timeline will be established once resolved. An update will be provided in April 2020.

= there's no room anywhere and we don't know what to do now....

I'm not sure your = is accurate. Surely, in terms of space, there are plenty of places that could accommodate whatever it is: 12 or so jets, pilots, ground crew, office staff, time and airspace to fly in...

It's not at if there's nowhere, so I imagine it's more that various options are being considered.

As for harkins' post speculating on the future of the RAFAT full stop - seriously?

It is about airspace the clue is in the statement. Ask the GA community if there is the right balance of airspace. Ask the controllers about airspace infringements. Shift the airspace needed south and it is even more crowded. The decision has probably been deferred so it is included in the airspace modernisation programme.

[harkins]

As for harkins' post speculating on the future of the RAFAT full stop - seriously?

Yes, of course. I wasn't saying that it is highly likely or imminent, but I cannot believe that there are not some people in government and even in the air force that would have no problem saving a huge amount of money by axing the Reds. There just has to be some people who couldn't care less if they no longer existed.

[Spiny Norman]

As for harkins' post speculating on the future of the RAFAT full stop - seriously?

Yes, of course. I wasn't saying that it is highly likely or imminent, but I cannot believe that there are not some people in government and even in the air force that would have no problem saving a huge amount of money by axing the Reds. There just has to be some people who couldn't care less if they no longer existed.

The current chief government 'adviser' I'm sure would have no problem cutting the Red Arrows.

[SilentFlight]

At around £8 Million a year, its not a huge amount in the grand scheme of things, although I wouldn't object to it in my bank account. If you take that against the benefit to the economy, both at home and abroad from goodwill tours, its worth the cost, which most of the key players in government get.

[Ant.H]

Axing the Red Arrows was mooted a few years ago by the Labour Govt (Blair/Brown), but there was a massive public backlash with an online petition and a debate in the Commons and the idea was smartly dropped. There seems to be widespread support for the Reds among the "ordinary" public, not to mention the PR value to the Govt (recent US tour an example).

[Mike]

The interesting time will come when BAE offer MoD a last-time buy of a batch of Hawk T2s for the Reds. The T1s won't be able to carry on indefinitely so at that point the decision will have to be made to either stump up a significant amount of cash for 15 or so new jets, buy perhaps 10 and downsize them to a 6-ship, or disband the team altogether.

[Wrexham Mackem]

I can't help wonder whether available aircrew may not become a constraint eventually. The pool of pilots who qualify under present criteria (promoted/completed an operational tour/rated as outstanding), and who wish to commit to it, must be diminishing. Added to that aerobatics isn't necessarily in the Air Force training syllabus any more.

I do hope that challenges are overcome as they always have been and they continue. It wouldn't be the same without the Reds.

[motormouser]

https://www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/news ... ws-3864508

[Unknown74]

I know this is daft but could the right decision be to keep Scampton open and base both the Red Arrows and BBMF at RAF Scampton so as has been mentioned two of the RAFs main Display Teams operate from the same Base? Good question would also be is there enough room?

[boff180]

More than enough room however for that to happen the Dispersals and taxiways would need a structural review - as would the Hangars. For example, the Red Arrows dispersal was only resurfaced to a specification that could handle the weight of a Hawk.l

Back in 2017, one Hangar was used for vehicular maintenance, one by the museum (and show), one by the Reds and the other was so unsafe it was sealed off. To move the BBMF in would likely mean refurbishing the derelict Hangar too.

It’s a good idea but it would also be extremely costly.

[Smog Monster]

Agree using Scampton as a joint base would make a lot of sense.

In an ideal world the site would be thoroughly developed into a museum / educational centre... a Duxford / RAF museum of the north with space to expand and store aircraft types yet to be retired.

The obvious link with 617 squadron, prospect of seeing the reds / BBMF giving the site a USP alongside any additional museum collections, or privately operated warbirds or jets that could locate there in the future.

For all their faults (many of them) the current government's aim to cash in on British patriotism and willingness to spend on infrastructure is probably the best hope for Scampton.

Some kind of public private partnership that developed the site as a living museum and home to those teams could be amazing.

Would require a hell of a lot of cash from somewhere though.

[NAM Updater]

This topic has been covered before and if you follow the link in the 9.49am post from back in 2018 you will find lots of Lincs County Council documents from 2013, when such a proposal was made - enjoy the read!

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=81673&p=836115&hilit=Scampton#p836115

Or for quickness here's the direct link to the LCC site:

https://lincolnshire.moderngov.co.uk/mgAi.aspx?ID=1891

[DOUGHNUT]

One issue with relocating BBMF away from Coningsby is the fact that all the pilots are based at Coningsby. Therefore the commute to Scampton would become an issue in terms of the hours / days taken from their operational flying, and other duties, as members of Typhoon squadrons.

[Ant.H]

There was some discussion about a BBMF move to Scampton on one of the other forums several years ago, and one of the biggest concerns that came up was that Scampton has only one active runway. At Coningsby they have two runways to choose from, which is an important consideration when operating aircraft with relatively low crosswind limits, ie. a move to Scampton could mean more cancellations with the winds more often out of limits.

[boff180]

Coningsby only has one runway, they operated two for a very short time whilst there were Harriers were on base however it was too short for anything other than a Spitfire. The cross runway is now closed.

[spellow3010]

Not looking to call anyone out, but I doubt that the 'commute' from one part of Lincs to another is going to be insurmountable for aircrew. It's not like going from... Coningsby to Valley...