BBC Planespotting live....

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CatB
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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by CatB »

speedbird2639 wrote:
One think I wish you had - a like button, or upvote button on posts. Some on this thread hit the nail squarely on the head and I would have liked to acknowledge such simply.


I agree - but I think the Luddites on here think its 'all a bit too Facebook' so they won't consider it.


Well that’s two of your posts for which I need that button.

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effects
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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by effects »

CatB wrote:
blueskytoday wrote:
CatB wrote: It was in the spirit of Springwatch.


a set of erudite individuals showing and discussing lesser creatures in their native environment.


Haha. In fact, the criticisms have mostly been the exact opposite. A set of know nothings insulting the intelligence of superior beings.

And there we have it.
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Tmyers123
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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by Tmyers123 »

effects wrote: Hmmm, disrespect, is that is a good description of simply pointing out that someone who was paid to be part of a programme was wrong, and respect is a two way street, remember the 'get some time in' comment.


Give it a rest mate, are you really arguing with a pilot about how aircraft work? :facepalm:

FarnboroJohn
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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by FarnboroJohn »

speedbird2639 wrote::clap:

Take no notice of him, Cat. Some of the people on here appreciate you taking the time to share your knowledge and experience.

@farnboroughjohn - you are exactly the sort of extremely knowledgeable person the programme was NOT aimed at. I wouldn't hold out much hope of them changing the programme to suit your interests.


Oh, I get that. However, it ought to be watchable in an amused sort of way (and its surprising how often you can learn even a snippet - look at how many on here have been pleasantly surprised by how good the Aeropark was). Luckily the spotters on there were treated with a good deal of respect in their segments, which I appreciated. Must admit I was disappointed by the one with Arthur at the end who said the Red Arrows were the best thing at RIAT though! :grin:

RleQuin
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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by RleQuin »

CatB wrote:
blueskytoday wrote:
CatB wrote: It was in the spirit of Springwatch.


a set of erudite individuals showing and discussing lesser creatures in their native environment.


Haha. In fact, the criticisms have mostly been the exact opposite. A set of know nothings insulting the intelligence of superior beings.


Are you actually being serious CatB?

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Rampvan
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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by Rampvan »

Just managed to catch up with these shows, all in all a little shoddy as regards detail, I thought the girl in the PJ's was quite good at explaining things and did it in an understandable way to those who may not of known or had much knowledge of aviation history. The Pilot was good with most things as you would expect as she was in the industry for many years, although some things she said were clearly wrong, 4 engines don't emit 4 trails aside :whistle: I was amazed to hear her say that the 747 carried more Freight than any other aircraft except dedicated freighters, in my 25 year experience within airlines the 747 has to be one of the worst freight/pax uplifters out there (combi aside), the only other aircraft that is worse is the A380. The PAX B777/B787/A346/A343 and even the A333 can uplift considerably more cargo than a comparable B747......actually I've even seen 28 tonne of cargo on a full A332 before !

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JJC
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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by JJC »

CatB wrote:
blueskytoday wrote:
CatB wrote: It was in the spirit of Springwatch.


a set of erudite individuals showing and discussing lesser creatures in their native environment.


Haha. In fact, the criticisms have mostly been the exact opposite. A set of know nothings insulting the intelligence of superior beings.


The litany of basic errors throughout the show was farcical, sorry to burst your bubble. No, the target audience doesn’t excuse this.
Last edited by JJC on Sat 27 Jul 2019, 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rampvan
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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by Rampvan »

RleQuin wrote:
CatB wrote:
blueskytoday wrote:
CatB wrote: It was in the spirit of Springwatch.


a set of erudite individuals showing and discussing lesser creatures in their native environment.


Haha. In fact, the criticisms have mostly been the exact opposite. A set of know nothings insulting the intelligence of superior beings.


Are you actually being serious CatB?


Course she right, Captains are always right!! and woe betide anyone who says different

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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by effects »

Tmyers123 wrote:
effects wrote: Hmmm, disrespect, is that is a good description of simply pointing out that someone who was paid to be part of a programme was wrong, and respect is a two way street, remember the 'get some time in' comment.


Give it a rest mate, are you really arguing with a pilot about how aircraft work? :facepalm:

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LN Strike Eagle
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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by LN Strike Eagle »

CatB wrote:Haha. In fact, the criticisms have mostly been the exact opposite. A set of know nothings insulting the intelligence of superior beings.

There’s no need to be that defensive about it. Or that patronising to people this show was supposed to be about.

A programme of this nature is there to educate - if those tasked with relaying the information to the audience can’t tell a Spitfire from a Lysander, it’s failing on a pretty basic level IMO. You expect teachers to know what they’re talking about, not to have a stab in the dark because it’s got a propellor and wears camo.

Again, I will reiterate that of all those involved with presenting the show, you were the most competent and engaging to listen to.

I left some constructive feedback earlier in this thread, but it has been glossed over in pursuit of petty arguments about contrails.

I noted what you said about the level at which you were told to pitch your broadcast, and that for me is one of the major issues. BBC Four is supposed to be their high brow channel, and frankly there’s no need to pitch this so low - it’s a hobby that has many facets, but apart from the in-depth engineering side of restorations etc or really detailed look at the physics of flight, none of it needs to be dumbed down as it’s all fairly straight forward. The subject matter in Stargazing or the Sky At Night is far more challenging, but at their peak, those programmes assumed a level of knowledge and intellect and sought to educate inquiring minds, rather than spoon feed to the lowest common denominator. These days, especially since the unfortunate passing of Sir Patrick Moore, that no longer holds true, but the BBC should be resisting this slide in the standard of its output.
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play it cool
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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by play it cool »

LN Strike Eagle wrote:A programme of this nature is there to educate - if those tasked with relaying the information to the audience can’t tell a Spitfire from a Lysander, it’s failing on a pretty basic level IMO. You expect teachers to know what they’re talking about, not to have a stab in the dark because it’s got a propellor and wears camo.

I don’t see why this programme can’t be on a par with Springwatch etc. People who largely know what they’re talking about informing us so we actually feel like we’re learning something, without the need to dumb down.

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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by ikarus »

If you learn one new fact from watching a program like this - then it's a result I suppose . Each to their own.

I flamed the show on the initial episode , and then watched the following 2 just to see if it improved , have to admit it did in
some minor respects ,I enjoyed seeing the memorabilia folk/collectors , but we all set the bar at a different personal level I suppose when watching these TV Shows . If BBC go for series 2 lets hope they improve the format.

Kudos to one of the presenters CatB for coming onto this forum to provide an insight into the production issues etc , I didn't realise you would have two different people talking in your ear when trying to present - I just assumed one for links etc.

I expected Arthur to go a^se over t^t when he was moving back and forth at London City Airport and end up in the water ......

It just shows that folk from all walks of the aviation community read this forum.

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Rampvan
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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by Rampvan »

Kudos to the RAF guy who referred to the Connigsby spotters as extra eyes and ears for security on the base :up:

CatB
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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by CatB »

RleQuin wrote:
CatB wrote:
blueskytoday wrote:
CatB wrote: It was in the spirit of Springwatch.


a set of erudite individuals showing and discussing lesser creatures in their native environment.


Haha. In fact, the criticisms have mostly been the exact opposite. A set of know nothings insulting the intelligence of superior beings.


Are you actually being serious CatB?


About?

Springwatch? That’s certainly how they described the format to me.

The criticisms?

I was translating the poster’s expectation of erudite presenters and lesser creatures to match my experience of the criticisms, both here, and, especially, on Twitter which has been that the presenters knew nothing and it should have been pitched higher, at active spotters, who, obviously, know much more than the presenters. In other words, the expectations were not, in any way, matched by the actuality.

CatB
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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by CatB »

LN Strike Eagle wrote:
CatB wrote:Haha. In fact, the criticisms have mostly been the exact opposite. A set of know nothings insulting the intelligence of superior beings.

There’s no need to be that defensive about it. Or that patronising to people this show was supposed to be about.


Certainly wasn’t intending to be patronising. Apologies if it came out that way. I was trying to point out the huge gulf between the poster’s expectation and the general reaction.

A programme of this nature is there to educate - if those tasked with relaying the information to the audience can’t tell a Spitfire from a Lysander, it’s failing on a pretty basic level IMO. You expect teachers to know what they’re talking about, not to have a stab in the dark because it’s got a propellor and wears camo.


As I said, he was probably fed a stumble into his earpiece about the next photo. As I found out, those earpieces can be pretty compulsive. However. I wasn’t there on night 3, so that’s a guess.

Again, I will reiterate that of all those involved with presenting the show, you were the most competent and engaging to listen to.


Thank you.

I left some constructive feedback earlier in this thread, but it has been glossed over in pursuit of petty arguments about contrails.


Again, I plead for a thank you button. I did read from the start but decided to address points I could clarify. I can, however, pass a composite forum viewpoint document on to the producers.

I noted what you said about the level at which you were told to pitch your broadcast, and that for me is one of the major issues. BBC Four is supposed to be their high brow channel, and frankly there’s no need to pitch this so low - it’s a hobby that has many facets, but apart from the in-depth engineering side of restorations etc or really detailed look at the physics of flight, none of it needs to be dumbed down as it’s all fairly straight forward. The subject matter in Stargazing or the Sky At Night is far more challenging, but at their peak, those programmes assumed a level of knowledge and intellect and sought to educate inquiring minds, rather than spoon feed to the lowest common denominator. These days, especially since the unfortunate passing of Sir Patrick Moore, that no longer holds true, but the BBC should be resisting this slide in the standard of its output.


Is BBC4 the highbrow channel. I thought we were preceded by vintage Top of the Pops.

I too, miss Sir Patrick. I had the privilege of flying him into London, on a Viscount, in the 1970s.

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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by RleQuin »

Haha. In fact, the criticisms have mostly been the exact opposite. A set of know nothings insulting the intelligence of superior beings.[/quote

The comment above.
Making out you are a superior being.
You flew planes - big deal, it’s not rocket science is it?

RleQuin
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FarnboroJohn
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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by FarnboroJohn »

CatB wrote:
I noted what you said about the level at which you were told to pitch your broadcast, and that for me is one of the major issues. BBC Four is supposed to be their high brow channel, and frankly there’s no need to pitch this so low - it’s a hobby that has many facets, but apart from the in-depth engineering side of restorations etc or really detailed look at the physics of flight, none of it needs to be dumbed down as it’s all fairly straight forward. The subject matter in Stargazing or the Sky At Night is far more challenging, but at their peak, those programmes assumed a level of knowledge and intellect and sought to educate inquiring minds, rather than spoon feed to the lowest common denominator. These days, especially since the unfortunate passing of Sir Patrick Moore, that no longer holds true, but the BBC should be resisting this slide in the standard of its output.


Is BBC4 the highbrow channel. I thought we were preceded by vintage Top of the Pops.

I too, miss Sir Patrick. I had the privilege of flying him into London, on a Viscount, in the 1970s.


I might not have described BBC4 as highbrow (now, maybe I would!) but it carries a lot of serious documentaries on subjects ranging across science and arts. I find it makes up a substantial part of my watching these days as a result: no soaps, reality or property marketing shows! I suspect that many of those choosing BBC4 must be taking refuge in the same way. Above all what I want to see is calm, informative, accurate presenting that treats both material and viewers in an adult way.

When I'm not being an aviation enthusiast - which I've been from a very young age, growing up in Farnborough when that meant something - I'm a birder and wildlife enthusiast. The two groups are in many ways similar: knowledgeable, inquiring, active, humorous (though intolerant of errors in those they feel should know better) and above all engaging. I've lost count of the times I've seen (or been) a member of either group answering a question from a member of the public - often with rather more detail than said member of the public expected or wanted, but the thing is the public pretty much always turn out to be eager to learn and happy to hear the whole answer, and even follow it into a conversation in which more learning takes place. Joe Public needs more respect from the BBC when pitching programmes. Even in the mass they aren't total idiots when faced with good quality programming.

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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by Stagger2 »

Tmyers123 wrote:
effects wrote: Hmmm, disrespect, is that is a good description of simply pointing out that someone who was paid to be part of a programme was wrong, and respect is a two way street, remember the 'get some time in' comment.


Give it a rest mate, are you really arguing with a pilot about how aircraft work? :facepalm:


Simple Question. Does a Taxi-driver automatically acquire superior 'knowledge' (pun intended?) about how a Taxi is built & operates just because he's driven it for 40 years?
PS:- Would all 'real enfusiasts' please spell CoNingsby correctly? It just makes us all look stupid sub-beings. Just sayin'. (Big-up :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: )

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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by LN Strike Eagle »

Thank you for the reply, and for taking the time to engage with our forum members.

I can certainly believe that errors can come about through the producers jabbering away in the presenter's ears, and absolutely take that on-board, but it was quite apparent that Andi Peters didn't know what he was looking at and had to seek clarification from Phil O'Dell. As I said, if you show one of the experts on the Stargazing programme a photo of a constellation or planet etc, they know immediately what they're looking at and don't need to rely on the producer to feed them the bare essentials. He might be enthusiastic about airliners or flight in general, but enthusiasm alone needs to be matched with competence and composure IMO. I go back to the same point - a geography teacher bumbling his way through coastal landforms will not educate a class in the same way as someone that knows exactly what they're looking at.

Ultimately though, regardless of errors, it was the tone that was well off the mark. I can sum it up with two examples for you. On the BBC2 Series "Stargazing Live", they had the last man to walk on the Moon, Gene Cernon, on as a guest once. Brian Cox's awe and respect for the man he was speaking to came across effortlessly, and he could have asked him intelligent questions (on behalf of himself, as well as the viewer) for the entire duration of the show. You could see and hear his enthusiasm. Conversely, when presented with a Rolls Royce test pilot that has enjoyed a long and varied career flying everything from fast jets in the military to displaying Spitfires and the Vulcan at airshows, Andi Peters opted to sing a Kenny Loggins song from a 35 year old film at him, and ask if he thought he was Tom Cruise.. It was demeaning to both the guest, and the audience.

There must be better people available for the job than Peters and Snow? They had no chemistry, and the tone of the show was borderline patronising. Rather than a celebration of "a great British hobby", it felt like taking the pee out of it. Airshow commentator Ben Dunnell is an excellent communicator and would be good as a presenter/expert for future series, and as well as James May that I mentioned before, I know that Ted Kravitz from the Sky F1 team (and formerly of the BBC F1) is an aviation enthusiast. He would be a much better starting point to build around IMO. Even ex-UKAR forum member Dan O'Hagan might be worth looking into - as a sports journalist/broadcaster, he's very comfortable in front of camera and has a solid knowledge of aviation.

On the subject of BBC 4, its in their remit:

BBC Four Service Licence wrote:1. Remit

BBC Four’s primary role is to reflect a range of UK and international arts, music and culture. It should provide an ambitious range of innovative, high quality programming that is intellectually and culturally enriching, taking an expert and in-depth approach to a wide range of subjects.

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/assets/files/pdf/regulatory_framework/service_licences/tv/2012/bbc_four_nov12.pdf


With regards to a "like" or "thank you" button - that would need to be a function of the forum software we use, and the version we are currently running doesn't have such a feature built-in as far as I can recall. My fear with it is always that it would likely reduce participation even further though - it's much less effort to click "like" than it is to type a reply and engage in a written conversation.
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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by Rampvan »

Stagger2 wrote:
Tmyers123 wrote:
effects wrote: Hmmm, disrespect, is that is a good description of simply pointing out that someone who was paid to be part of a programme was wrong, and respect is a two way street, remember the 'get some time in' comment.


Give it a rest mate, are you really arguing with a pilot about how aircraft work? :facepalm:


Simple Question. Does a Taxi-driver automatically acquire superior 'knowledge' (pun intended?) about how a Taxi is built & operates just because he's driven it for 40 years?
PS:- Would all 'real enfusiasts' please spell CoNingsby correctly? It just makes us all look stupid sub-beings. Just sayin'. (Big-up :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: )


yes sorry about that, spellchecker didn't notice it being incorrect and I'm not really a Military guy, they will be offering me a job on series 2 at this rate !!, :dizzy:

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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by CatB »

RleQuin wrote:Haha. In fact, the criticisms have mostly been the exact opposite. A set of know nothings insulting the intelligence of superior beings.


The comment above.
Making out you are a superior being.
You flew planes - big deal, it’s not rocket science is it?

RleQuin
Rocket Scientist[/quote]

Um no. Read it again. I was talking about much of the criticism from spotters, complaining the presenters were an insult to THEIR intelligence.

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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by parsley »

Rampvan wrote:Just managed to catch up with these shows, all in all a little shoddy as regards detail, I thought the girl in the PJ's was quite good at explaining things and did it in an understandable way to those who may not of known or had much knowledge of aviation history. The Pilot was good with most things as you would expect as she was in the industry for many years, although some things she said were clearly wrong, 4 engines don't emit 4 trails aside :whistle: I was amazed to hear her say that the 747 carried more Freight than any other aircraft except dedicated freighters, in my 25 year experience within airlines the 747 has to be one of the worst freight/pax uplifters out there (combi aside), the only other aircraft that is worse is the A380. The PAX B777/B787/A346/A343 and even the A333 can uplift considerably more cargo than a comparable B747......actually I've even seen 28 tonne of cargo on a full A332 before !


What length leg was that 332 on ?...it's pretty impressive regardless..my current lot's 333's (well the original oldest ones in the fleet) were often weight restricted for cargo with a full pax load to our furthest destination from the UK (about 4700 miles) when used on the route.With a previous company London did hold the network freight uplift records for the DC10 (which was always fun trimming as regards how much weight you could get away with if you wanted to put 5 88in aircraft pallets in the front hold) and the 767-300.

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Rampvan
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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by Rampvan »

parsley wrote:
Rampvan wrote:Just managed to catch up with these shows, all in all a little shoddy as regards detail, I thought the girl in the PJ's was quite good at explaining things and did it in an understandable way to those who may not of known or had much knowledge of aviation history. The Pilot was good with most things as you would expect as she was in the industry for many years, although some things she said were clearly wrong, 4 engines don't emit 4 trails aside :whistle: I was amazed to hear her say that the 747 carried more Freight than any other aircraft except dedicated freighters, in my 25 year experience within airlines the 747 has to be one of the worst freight/pax uplifters out there (combi aside), the only other aircraft that is worse is the A380. The PAX B777/B787/A346/A343 and even the A333 can uplift considerably more cargo than a comparable B747......actually I've even seen 28 tonne of cargo on a full A332 before !


What length leg was that 332 on ?...it's pretty impressive regardless..my current lot's 333's (well the original oldest ones in the fleet) were often weight restricted for cargo with a full pax load to our furthest destination from the UK (about 4700 miles) when used on the route.With a previous company London did hold the network freight uplift records for the DC10 (which was always fun trimming as regards how much weight you could get away with if you wanted to put 5 88in aircraft pallets in the front hold) and the 767-300.


Hi Parsley, the 332 was on the Cairo LHR route (3.500 miles) during veg season and included 2.5 tonne of hold 5 cargo, my current lot have a very heavy First class suite so lots of hold 5 weight does improve CoG resulting in a decent uplift with 6 96' and 2 88' plus a gaggle of AKEs

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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by psquiddy »

Having read this thread I almost did not bother to watch it but I am glad that I did (only the first one - which seems to be the worst one from what I have read)

Thanks Cat B for your insight and braving some of the hostile viewpoints on here.

Some of the Andy Peters bits were not quite as sharp at recognition as some on here are but I believe he is an enthusiast as he claims to be and I think he did a good job.

Peter Snow came across as an old bloke, but he is, and I think he was ok -the sick bags bit did seem a bit rushed - but generally he did well - it is a live show after all (perhaps that bit would have been better recorded)

Interviews with the general public at Myrtle Av were not great, but what do you expect from the general public, they are not TV presenters - what would you say if you had a mic stuck under you face?

Not sure about "Where is the AN125"? bit and most of the photos shown were rubbish - check out UKAR for decent aircraft photos (other sources are available)

Do science people need to have mad hair or is that her normal hair?

Summing up - I enjoyed it and am looking foreward to the next episode, but could do make improvements for the next series (yes please)
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Re: BBC Planespotting live....

Post by rjlaker »

I don't post on here anymore but wanted to on this occasion. A lot of people on here are showing themselves up and getting out of their cage and out of shape moaning over a programme that was a general lighthearted look at the aviation world. The vast majority of people that viewed the show wouldn't have given any minor points a second thought afterwards - I mean ... a quick off the cuff judgement whether it was a 2 or 4 engined aircraft represented as a dot on a photo...is it really worth throwing your dummys out of the pram about? People with lives have moved on.

CatB - you came across really well, don't let the tripe the anal folk on here bring you down to their level. You've had a career in the business that these sad acts can only dream of - you don't need to justify yourself to them! This is why a vast majority of the best and most interesting people in this hobby (and let's not forget it IS a hobby) don't bother on here any more.

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