German Typhoons beat USAF F-35s in WVR combat

Discuss all things 'aviation' that do not fit into a more appropriate forum
Post Reply
User avatar
Wissam24
UKAR Staff
Posts: 7784
Joined: Mon 29 Apr 2013, 9:54 am
Location: London

German Typhoons beat USAF F-35s in WVR combat

Post by Wissam24 »

[tweet]https://twitter.com/GarethJennings3/status/1191728333324718086[/tweet]
[tweet]https://twitter.com/GarethJennings3/status/1191736286794723328[/tweet]
Twitter: @samwise24 | Flickr: samwise24 | Shamelessly copying LN Strike Eagle's avatar ideas since 2016

User avatar
Brevet Cable
Posts: 13190
Joined: Tue 05 Mar 2013, 12:13 pm

Re: German Typhoons beat USAF F-35s in WVR combat

Post by Brevet Cable »

Meh....the Indian AF have beaten the USAF in the last few ( possibly more ) exercises they've done.
:biggrin:
Tôi chỉ đặt cái này ở đây để giữ cho người điều hành bận rộn
아직도 숨어있다

Domvickery
UKAR Staff
Posts: 2012
Joined: Tue 02 Sep 2008, 6:57 pm

Re: German Typhoons beat USAF F-35s in WVR combat

Post by Domvickery »

Brevet Cable wrote:Meh....the Indian AF have beaten the USAF in the last few ( possibly more ) exercises they've done.
:biggrin:


And the RAFs Typhoons
Free straws available to clutch at - PM me. Inventor of the baguette scale

User avatar
capercaillie
Posts: 8158
Joined: Mon 01 Sep 2008, 3:04 pm
Location: Leominster

Re: German Typhoons beat USAF F-35s in WVR combat

Post by capercaillie »

In a gun fight I would have been surprised if Typhoons hadn't beaten F-35s to be honest :dummy:
"The surrogate voice of st24"

User avatar
ericbee123
Posts: 2240
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 9:13 am
Location: Blackpool

Re: German Typhoons beat USAF F-35s in WVR combat

Post by ericbee123 »

capercaillie wrote:In a gun fight I would have been surprised if Typhoons hadn't beaten F-35s to be honest :dummy:

Exactly.

If you’re in a WVR dogfight with a specialist dogfighting aircraft using cannons in your stealthy BVR interceptor, then something has seriously gone wrong with your mission.

You should be able to detect and avoid a knife-fight if you’ve run out of bullets for your long range sniper’s rifle.
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.

User avatar
Brevet Cable
Posts: 13190
Joined: Tue 05 Mar 2013, 12:13 pm

Re: German Typhoons beat USAF F-35s in WVR combat

Post by Brevet Cable »

If you’re in a WVR dogfight with a specialist dogfighting aircraft using cannons in your stealthy BVR interceptor, then something has seriously gone wrong with your mission

ROE.
Tôi chỉ đặt cái này ở đây để giữ cho người điều hành bận rộn
아직도 숨어있다

Stagger2
Posts: 1512
Joined: Thu 16 Jun 2011, 8:46 am

Re: German Typhoons beat USAF F-35s in WVR combat

Post by Stagger2 »

How does a Return on equity (ROE) affect a Dogfight? :dunno:

User avatar
Brevet Cable
Posts: 13190
Joined: Tue 05 Mar 2013, 12:13 pm

Re: German Typhoons beat USAF F-35s in WVR combat

Post by Brevet Cable »

Wah?
Tôi chỉ đặt cái này ở đây để giữ cho người điều hành bận rộn
아직도 숨어있다

Orion
Posts: 585
Joined: Wed 22 Jul 2009, 9:34 pm

Re: German Typhoons beat USAF F-35s in WVR combat

Post by Orion »

ericbee123 wrote:
capercaillie wrote:In a gun fight I would have been surprised if Typhoons hadn't beaten F-35s to be honest :dummy:

...
If you’re in a WVR dogfight with a specialist dogfighting aircraft using cannons in your stealthy BVR interceptor, then something has seriously gone wrong with your mission.

...
OK, but shouldn't the F-35 pilot be able to break off the engagement? I gather that the F-35 isn't as manoeuvrable as the Typhoon but there should be a way for the F-35 pilot to get away and fight another day.

Cheers
David Mylchreest

verreli
Posts: 877
Joined: Sun 12 Mar 2017, 6:05 pm
Location: Lake District

Re: German Typhoons beat USAF F-35s in WVR combat

Post by verreli »

As others have implied, the F-35 is a high wing loading, high induced drag airframe so if you get in a 1 vs 1 turning fight, it's going to have a hard time, that's physics. But... multiple aircraft, data fusion and off boresight A2A missiles? The days of Baron von Richthofen are long gone. Nice boast for a play fight though.

For those that are interested in the physics...
http://www.dept.aoe.vt.edu/~lutze/AOE3104/turningflight.pdf

User avatar
Wissam24
UKAR Staff
Posts: 7784
Joined: Mon 29 Apr 2013, 9:54 am
Location: London

Re: German Typhoons beat USAF F-35s in WVR combat

Post by Wissam24 »

Rules of Engagement.

Over Syria, Coalition aircraft HAD to visually identify unknown aircraft. They had absolutely no permission to engage at BVR distances, making stealth pretty redundant. On some missions, eg the mass strike engagements, if enemy aircraft had positioned between them and their targets, they'd have had to abort the mission as they would be outside of their ROE distances until it was too late.

Dogfighting will never die as a skill or a requirement.
Twitter: @samwise24 | Flickr: samwise24 | Shamelessly copying LN Strike Eagle's avatar ideas since 2016

User avatar
Brevet Cable
Posts: 13190
Joined: Tue 05 Mar 2013, 12:13 pm

Re: German Typhoons beat USAF F-35s in WVR combat

Post by Brevet Cable »

To be honest, I honestly thought stagger2's post was a 'wah" hence why I asked.
The Americans learnt decades ago, during the Vietnam War, when the supposedly superior Phantoms, etc. were being clawed from the sky by supposedly inferior aircraft due to the fact that their extremely restrictive ROE ( requiring visual ID before engaging ) left their aircrew at a severe disadvantage.

Guess they've forgotten those lessons again.
Tôi chỉ đặt cái này ở đây để giữ cho người điều hành bận rộn
아직도 숨어있다

FarnboroJohn
Posts: 2514
Joined: Tue 28 Aug 2012, 6:57 pm

Re: German Typhoons beat USAF F-35s in WVR combat

Post by FarnboroJohn »

Brevet Cable wrote:To be honest, I honestly thought stagger2's post was a 'wah" hence why I asked.
The Americans learnt decades ago, during the Vietnam War, when the supposedly superior Phantoms, etc. were being clawed from the sky by supposedly inferior aircraft due to the fact that their extremely restrictive ROE ( requiring visual ID before engaging ) left their aircrew at a severe disadvantage.

Guess they've forgotten those lessons again.


Servicemen don't forget lessons like that, politicians do.

User avatar
Brevet Cable
Posts: 13190
Joined: Tue 05 Mar 2013, 12:13 pm

Re: German Typhoons beat USAF F-35s in WVR combat

Post by Brevet Cable »

Oh, I don't know....if the servicemen retire/leave and their service branch discontinue the training, then the experience isn't carried over, same where the people who do have the knowledge & experience become VSOs and seem to forget everything they've learnt.

The British Military stopped training up snipers after WW1, then promptly had to re-learn everything when WW2 kicked off.
The RN pretty much stopped teaching and training in gunnery prior to WW1 ( because they were more concerned with keeping their ships shiny ) then promptly had to re-learn it when they kept getting stuffed by the KM.
The Americans ( or the USAF, anyway ) stopped teaching ACMs after Korea because they thought it was obsolete when AAMs became prevalent, then promptly had to re-learn it during the Vietnam War.
Tôi chỉ đặt cái này ở đây để giữ cho người điều hành bận rộn
아직도 숨어있다

Wryneck
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue 17 Sep 2019, 7:20 pm

Re: German Typhoons beat USAF F-35s in WVR combat

Post by Wryneck »

verreli wrote:As others have implied, the F-35 is a high wing loading, high induced drag airframe so if you get in a 1 vs 1 turning fight, it's going to have a hard time, that's physics. But... multiple aircraft, data fusion and off boresight air-to-air missiles? The days of Baron von Richthofen are long gone. Nice boast for a play fight though.

For those that are interested in the physics...
http://www.dept.aoe.vt.edu/~lutze/AOE3104/turningflight.pdf


But hanging underwing stores negates stealth tech (as you become "visible" to radar - current article in Combat Aircraft covering recent use of F-35s loaded with underwing stores). So all this BVR talk is nonsense.

What's the point in building a fifth gen aircraft, with one of the major sealing points to other nations being its stealth capabilities... when you then go and hang underwing stores from it when its built with internal weapons bays :dizzy: something is very wrong here...

LM have pulled the wool over a lot of peoples eyes with this one :up: Its nothing more than a white elephant.

The Doctor
Posts: 110
Joined: Wed 26 Jun 2013, 12:26 pm

Re: German Typhoons beat USAF F-35s in WVR combat

Post by The Doctor »

Orion wrote:
ericbee123 wrote:
capercaillie wrote:In a gun fight I would have been surprised if Typhoons hadn't beaten F-35s to be honest :dummy:

...
If you’re in a WVR dogfight with a specialist dogfighting aircraft using cannons in your stealthy BVR interceptor, then something has seriously gone wrong with your mission.

...
OK, but shouldn't the F-35 pilot be able to break off the engagement? I gather that the F-35 isn't as manoeuvrable as the Typhoon but there should be a way for the F-35 pilot to get away and fight another day.

Cheers


Would have been a pretty rubbish training mission if Dave had just turned tail and run home. Sounds like they are getting great information on the positions they need to avoid in an engagement.

verreli
Posts: 877
Joined: Sun 12 Mar 2017, 6:05 pm
Location: Lake District

Re: German Typhoons beat USAF F-35s in WVR combat

Post by verreli »

Wryneck wrote:But hanging underwing stores negates stealth tech (as you become "visible" to radar - current article in Combat Aircraft covering recent use of F-35s loaded with underwing stores). So all this BVR talk is nonsense.

What's the point in building a fifth gen aircraft, with one of the major sealing points to other nations being its stealth capabilities... when you then go and hang underwing stores from it when its built with internal weapons bays :dizzy: something is very wrong here...

LM have pulled the wool over a lot of peoples eyes with this one :up: Its nothing more than a white elephant.


There are two points here. 1. How you use stealth tactically and 2. How you dogfight in modern aircraft.

First, stealth is a day 1 tactical tool to get your ground attack aircraft to their targets in contested skies. Once air superiority has been achieved you hang the pylons on for a higher weapon load because stealth is not needed.

Second, dogfighting has changed with the modern era. Previously it was about energy management with lower wing loading, lower induced drag and high thrust to weight all giving an advantage. That has changed since the advent of off bore sight missiles and again with the advent of data fusion. Tactics are still being developed but consider this scenario. You have one aircraft as a lead to visually identify the threat (satisfying rules of engagement and legal requirements) and one or more aircraft stood off. The lead aircraft at the merge can either simply look at the threat aircraft and launch a short range missile or launch a medium range missile from its wingman's aircraft. Neither scenario requires manoeuvring the aircraft behind the enemy before launch although you would still manoeuvre your aircraft to the best tactical position in case your missile wasn't successful. Typhoon has off bore sight capability evidenced by the fancy helmets they wear. F-35 takes it to another level with tactical battlespace management. Also consider that the enemy has this capability in their equivalent 4th and 5th generation aircraft.

6th generation will probably put AI in the missile for real time decision making independent of human intervention following launch.

User avatar
ericbee123
Posts: 2240
Joined: Sun 31 Aug 2008, 9:13 am
Location: Blackpool

Re: German Typhoons beat USAF F-35s in WVR combat

Post by ericbee123 »

If your ROE says you need to visually identify your targets.

Then the F-35 pilot with the biggest balls would probably fly towards a potential enemy it has detected with its long range sensors ( or using the information from an external more powerful radar ) , he would approach fast from whichever angle decreased his radar signature depending on his weapons fit ( internal or external - maybe he would approach fast and from low level so the enemy would be shielded by his airframe from his underwing stores radar signature - they must know by now the optimum angle to approach a radar to maximise stealth in various fit outs if they have the luxury of choosing it).

His wingman would sit outside of detection range of the potential enemy.

He visually identifies them as enemy dogfighting nasties and “legs it” as they detect him. As they concentrate on him, his wingman splashes them with a couple of BVR missiles up their tailpipes from the targeting information from the first F-35 or external radar or his radar.

The new sensors and situational awareness you have in the F-35 means that the traditional methods don’t apply anymore.

If your wingman can always “virtually” see you and use your targeting information he doesn’t need to physically be a few feet away to protect your back anymore.
Disclaimer-I have spell/grammar checked this post, it may still contain mistakes that might cause offence.

Post Reply