Future of Airshows in the EV World

Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby RS2 on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 10:23 am

With the announcement by the Government that they are bringing forward the date for stopping sales of Diesel / Petrol vehicles, could the Electric Vehicle revolution spell the end for airshows and other events at remote sites.

Permanent venues will given time cater for mass EVs, but take the likes of RIAT, I'm not sure on the numbers but lets say 20,000 vehicles descend on a Cotswold airbase, some parked on the airfield and some in farmers fields. Non of these areas will or should cater for EVs, its not the normal day today use of the parking areas so if most of those vehicles then need a charge or boost to get home, what happens ?

I realise we are still some years off and technology moves on quickly, but the flip side is will the airshow then only become practical for the people with the best and newest EV vehicles at the time, with the greatest range etc and hence either become for the rich, or not practical as the crowds wont be big enough to support the costs of a show.

I'm in no way anti EV, but reading from some automotive industry professionals, I cant prove the numbers but at the moment they are talking about 34+ million vehicles in the UK and 24,000 charge points. Now if every single fuel pump became an EV charge point vehicles would still take longer to 'fill' and with the lower range would require filling more frequently.

Also most of our current and historic acts also run on Avgas, UL91 or JetA1, will the move to EV also push up the costs of these fuels and hence increase the cost of airshow acts?

There is certainly some uncertainty ahead, and I hope things aren't going to be as negative as I'm possibly suggesting, but lets just appreciate and enjoy our current airshows a little more each time we attend.

Finally out of interest take a look at http://gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ especially during an ad break after a major soap, demand is often in 40s and our windmills are contributing less than 2GWs, we've got some building to do to sustain the amount of power we are going to need.
RS2

Re: Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby boff180 on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 10:40 am

It's simple, EV is a fad - the limited range and long charge times make it unviable as a true future option.

The only option that actually works for long range and away from the major network driving is Hydrogen.

If I was PM, I would not be throwing money at the Bus Network and HS2 Phase 2 but throwing all those £Billions at getting a viable Hydrogren production and distribution network up and running. Perhaps supplemented by wireless charging lanes on the motorway every 50 miles or so for those that want to use EV.

Andy
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Re: Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby Wissam24 on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 10:50 am

boff180 wrote:It's simple, EV is a fad - the limited range and long charge times make it unviable as a true future option.


People said the same about PCs and mobile phones in their early days as they couldn't see how the technology could improve.

EVs are 100% the future. Fuel cells are always touted as some kind of miracle bullet alternative to electric vehicles because people think the elecrtic technology is literally never going to progress from this point - they're already a popular and well-proven alternative to IC.
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Re: Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby boff180 on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 11:01 am

They make sense in Cities, outside of them they are a liability. We are probably going to see a two-power source future however regardless of which, without massive investment and soon - it will take longer to travel distances in the future - a massive backwards step.
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Re: Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby BDL on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 11:13 am

10 years is a long time in tech development, as we all know - I suspect that batteries will improve massively in that time and car ranges will be improved dramatically.

Saying that I agree with Andy that we need to look at Hydrogen and improving infrastructure.
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Re: Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby HeyfordDave111 on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 12:43 pm

only if we find a cheap way of getting the Lithium out of the ground i suspect.
Plus its hellish on manpower and health thereof, and quite limited in supplies.
Got to love Russianhardware
HeyfordDave111


Re: Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby DOUGHNUT on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 12:55 pm

I would be surprised if many airshow will still be around on 15years time. Aviation will be under pressure to reduce it carbon footprint. We can only hope that plans can be made which will allow the heritage market to continue. Events at museum sites where flying is limited to the local area with out the need for unnecessary transit flights. GA flying will probably be smaller electric powered.
DOUGHNUT

Re: Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby iainpeden on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 1:07 pm

Clone Trump and get him and his clones to do a Putin - i.e. perpetual leadership. Then, using all the shale oil the USA produces, along with the leadership's denial of climate change, American airshows can carry on for ever. Ticket to Oshkosh every year and problem solved.
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Re: Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby BobL on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 1:37 pm

Seemples, Just pack your own genny with the picnic and windbreak...

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Underneath my gruff exterior is an even gruffer interior...
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Re: Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby Stagger2 on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 1:59 pm

Hybrid EV/Alternative power-source is the way to go. Battery technology & hopefully cost are being improved at a rapid rate, but currently the main obstacles to any future plans for completely EV vehicles are with (A) the infrastructure & (B) us (the Drivers, potentially out of a job too?) not being able to adapt to the new regime.
(A) Why aren't the sub-surface wireless charging loops not being installed in the motorways during the endless miles of lane closures upgrades to "Not-so-Smart" motorways?
Consider the new trains sitting in the Works because the overhead power cables are years late being installed?
Motorway Service Areas have installed limited charging points, but they've 'stolen' the disabled parking bays nearest the building to save on cable & trenching costs.
(B) It's great that future batteries can be charged to full in under 5 minutes, but typically anyone parking on a charge point will visit the Services, have a 'persist' , have a coffee, have another 'persist' & maybe a KFC ?....nett result is a charging point blocked for over 30 minutes!
Many people don't believe in having anything like as little as a quarter tank of fuel before they fill-up. Imagine the panic when your battery is going down faster than a $20 whore? :shock:
It's great to dream the Government timescale could work, but reality is ...not really! :loser: Any development of electric Warbirds should be limited to R/C Models! :wink:
Even though they stop selling 'new' petrol & diesel cars, we can still keep the ones we have if so desired. There'll always be chip-fat for the oil-burners amongst us. :yahoo:
Stagger2

Re: Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby BobL on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 3:12 pm

There was a piece on telly the other week about EVs and one owner described pulling up to charging station (on motorway I think she said) and there was a queue of about 30 vehicles waiting to charge.
My local town centre car park has a twin bay with charging point but it has had a plastic bag over the top for about a year now.
Bodes well for the future.

My diesel Volvo estate is in the £0 VEL tax band - it's 8 years old and has 70k on the clock - I think it may be staying with me a while longer!...
Underneath my gruff exterior is an even gruffer interior...
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Re: Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby farnboroughrob on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 4:16 pm

The original point will go for any large outdoor event that is best acessable by road. So music festivals, many sporting events (British GP, Golf, horse racing etc) and a simple visit to a country stateley home. I think it is govenment virtue signaling because they know what will really happern. That is that there will be a massive surge in new car sales in the two years before and people will keep those car's for longer. Yes we may well end up with 50% adoption by 2035 but a EV will be impractical for many, many people.
So in my job I travel to customers to fix things. That maybe within 100 miles but I oftern drive 300+ miles in a day. That is impossible in a EV, and maybe for a long time.Personally I will be retiring by then so it is not a big worry.
What happens with EV's if there is a big traffic jam, or the road is closed by snow? How are you going to recharge maybe 1000+ EV's that have been stuck for hours?
farnboroughrob

Re: Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby TonyC on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 5:08 pm

boff180 wrote:It's simple, EV is a fad - the limited range and long charge times make it unviable as a true future option.

The only option that actually works for long range and away from the major network driving is Hydrogen.

If I was PM, I would not be throwing money at the Bus Network and HS2 Phase 2 but throwing all those £Billions at getting a viable Hydrogren production and distribution network up and running. Perhaps supplemented by wireless charging lanes on the motorway every 50 miles or so for those that want to use EV.

Andy


Couldn't agree more, electricity stills require fossil fuels to continue production, as wind, solar and hydro are unable produce sufficient amounts to cover requirement whilst nuclear, is not wanted.

As I see it, EV is a short term fad and it wouldn't surprise me, if the fuel companies have decided to join the EV bandwagon and invested heavily in electric and are potentialy leaning on governments, to ensure that they remain in business!

In addition, how big will electric stations have to be, to supply enough plug-in stations, to allow for a 20 minute fill-up, compared with the current 5 minutes to fuel and pay at petrol stations?

As for hydrogen, apart from the high price of converting it to a usable product, which would obviously reduce as more facilities are built, I see no downside!
...and pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in Space cos there's bugger all down here on Earth!
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Re: Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby Wissam24 on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 5:37 pm

TonyC wrote:
boff180 wrote:It's simple, EV is a fad - the limited range and long charge times make it unviable as a true future option.

The only option that actually works for long range and away from the major network driving is Hydrogen.

If I was PM, I would not be throwing money at the Bus Network and HS2 Phase 2 but throwing all those £Billions at getting a viable Hydrogren production and distribution network up and running. Perhaps supplemented by wireless charging lanes on the motorway every 50 miles or so for those that want to use EV.

Andy


Couldn't agree more, electricity stills require fossil fuels to continue production, as wind, solar and hydro are unable produce sufficient amounts to cover requirement whilst nuclear, is not wanted.



A bafflingly incorrect statement in every way

In addition, how big will electric stations have to be, to supply enough plug-in stations, to allow for a 20 minute fill-up, compared with the current 5 minutes to fuel and pay at petrol stations?


What has led you to believe that charging stations are the only places cars can be charged? You can install charging points on every space in a car park, on every street, under the roads.
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Re: Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby Rich.B on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 5:41 pm

Was in the Ford dealership picking up the wifes new Fiesta. Sale rep was very confident that in 2021 that the likes of the fiesta and KA models will be EV with a range of 300miles. Now my wife will only need to charge this once a month with her commute. If i used it then once a week.
It would get me to RIAT and back no problem at all and still get my wife to work for a week before a charge.

In 5 years time the tech will get better. I'm sure it will be a sales pitch to keep things going. Further range each year.

Just like your camera memory cards and you mega pixels.
I once thought that my Canon eos d30 camera with 2 million pixels and a 256mb compact flash card was the dogs b,,'s. Yes that card cost £230. Back then.
Rich.B

Re: Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby Wissam24 on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 5:43 pm

Rich.B wrote:Was in the Ford dealership picking up the wifes new Fiesta. Sale rep was very confident that in 2021 that the likes of the fiesta and KA models will be EV with a range of 300miles. Now my wife will only need to charge this once a month with her commute. If i used it then once a week.
It would get me to RIAT and back no problem at all and still get my wife to work for a week before a charge.

In 5 years time the tech will get better. I'm sure it will be a sales pitch to keep things going. Further range each year.

Just like your camera memory cards and you mega pixels.
I once thought that my Canon eos d30 camera with 2 million pixels and a 256mbcompact flash cards was the dogs b,,'s. Yes that card cost £230. Back then.


"Digital will never replace film, the storage is too small and expensive and the photos are too low pixel count. This will never change, therefore digital photography is just a fad"
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Re: Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby Rich.B on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 5:46 pm

Wissam24 wrote:
Rich.B wrote:Was in the Ford dealership picking up the wifes new Fiesta. Sale rep was very confident that in 2021 that the likes of the fiesta and KA models will be EV with a range of 300miles. Now my wife will only need to charge this once a month with her commute. If i used it then once a week.
It would get me to RIAT and back no problem at all and still get my wife to work for a week before a charge.

In 5 years time the tech will get better. I'm sure it will be a sales pitch to keep things going. Further range each year.

Just like your camera memory cards and you mega pixels.
I once thought that my Canon eos d30 camera with 2 million pixels and a 256mbcompact flash cards was the dogs b,,'s. Yes that card cost £230. Back then.


"Digital will never replace film, the storage is too small and expensive and the photos are too low pixel count. This will never change, therefore digital photography is just a fad"


So true.
And i purchased a new SD card last week. 128 giga bytes for £25. Thats progress.
Rich.B

Re: Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby CJS on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 8:53 pm

Rich.B wrote:
Wissam24 wrote:
Rich.B wrote:Was in the Ford dealership picking up the wifes new Fiesta. Sale rep was very confident that in 2021 that the likes of the fiesta and KA models will be EV with a range of 300miles. Now my wife will only need to charge this once a month with her commute. If i used it then once a week.
It would get me to RIAT and back no problem at all and still get my wife to work for a week before a charge.

In 5 years time the tech will get better. I'm sure it will be a sales pitch to keep things going. Further range each year.

Just like your camera memory cards and you mega pixels.
I once thought that my Canon eos d30 camera with 2 million pixels and a 256mbcompact flash cards was the dogs b,,'s. Yes that card cost £230. Back then.


"Digital will never replace film, the storage is too small and expensive and the photos are too low pixel count. This will never change, therefore digital photography is just a fad"


So true.
And i purchased a new SD card last week. 128 giga bytes for £25. Thats progress.


Doesn't always work out though...

APS, Betamax anyone...
"Forewarned is forearmed"
How do you know I didn't?
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Re: Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby Wissam24 on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 9:03 pm

CJS wrote:
Rich.B wrote:
Wissam24 wrote:
Rich.B wrote:Was in the Ford dealership picking up the wifes new Fiesta. Sale rep was very confident that in 2021 that the likes of the fiesta and KA models will be EV with a range of 300miles. Now my wife will only need to charge this once a month with her commute. If i used it then once a week.
It would get me to RIAT and back no problem at all and still get my wife to work for a week before a charge.

In 5 years time the tech will get better. I'm sure it will be a sales pitch to keep things going. Further range each year.

Just like your camera memory cards and you mega pixels.
I once thought that my Canon eos d30 camera with 2 million pixels and a 256mbcompact flash cards was the dogs b,,'s. Yes that card cost £230. Back then.


"Digital will never replace film, the storage is too small and expensive and the photos are too low pixel count. This will never change, therefore digital photography is just a fad"


So true.
And i purchased a new SD card last week. 128 giga bytes for £25. Thats progress.


Doesn't always work out though...

APS, Betamax anyone...


Neither were whole technologies that disappeared. They were subtypes that lost to competition. Betmax failed, but "recorded video on magnetic tape" didn't.
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Re: Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby Alanko on Thu 13 Feb 2020, 9:21 pm

RS2 wrote:With the announcement by the Government that they are bringing forward the date for stopping sales of Diesel / Petrol vehicles, could the Electric Vehicle revolution spell the end for airshows and other events at remote sites.


I always enjoy these slightly myopic "but what does X mean for airshows?" threads.

EVs pose a risk to airshows as people won't have enough sparks stored in the tank to get them to an airshow and back? Or aircraft will be increasingly viewed as utilitarian thing-moving devices rather than stuff of whimsy? I'm not seeing the link here.

Airshows will die a quiet death as the skills required to keep historic aircraft in the air run dry. Modern aircraft will be too complex for spirited amateurs to spanner away on, whereas older types, beyond the generic Spitfire sorts, will be too difficult to maintain and the specialisms required to do so will also fade away.

Smaller airshows won't be able to afford the various costs required to host. This will leave us with fewer, bigger airshows with increasingly dull, pedestrian aircraft performing increasingly dull, pedestrian displays. There won't be any sort of renaissance that brings back historic fast jets or daring ten-foot passes directly over crowds of schoolboys wearing shorts and Fair Isle pullovers.
Alanko

Re: Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby spellow3010 on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 10:08 am

In summary then... modern life is going to be rubbish.

Sounds like a Blur album title :smile:

I'm of the age where that far into the future will have limited impact on me. I will have retired... unless I get killed in the crush at Park and View East this summer!! I will however, have gigs upon gigs of photographs to look back on and lament on the good old days. Enjoy it all while it lasts. Preserve your memories, they're all that's left you...

I am looking forward to the re-opening of the M6 between Rugby and Birmingham fully as a smart motorway now after years of 50mph running. How soon before they start ripping it up again and deploy the under-road charging technology? Bring it on... I've always wanted to have a go in a full sized Scalextric (sp).
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Re: Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby TonyC on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 5:10 pm

Wissam24 wrote:A bafflingly incorrect statement in every way

In addition, how big will electric stations have to be, to supply enough plug-in stations, to allow for a 20 minute fill-up, compared with the current 5 minutes to fuel and pay at petrol stations?


What has led you to believe that charging stations are the only places cars can be charged? You can install charging points on every space in a car park, on every street, under the roads.


Sorry, it was the Jeremy Clarkson in me, making an appearance (as he occassional does :lol: ) I do though, have concerns over EV.

Price being the main concern, if the Government and car firms want us to move away from fossil fuels, why make the supposed replacement initially expensive? Yes I know that statement would also apply to the fuel cell but wouldn't the uptake occur over much shorter period than it currently has taking, if pricing had been equal to the equivilent fossil fuel vehicle? How much will it cost to install charging points in all the places you suggest, how much to install a charging point at home as opposed to plugging into the house and as for under the roads, I'm sure that you have seen the state of the roads, the road network, despite the amount we pay, is woeful, so I'm not sure that that will ever be a possibility, certainly not in my life time and certainly not until there is a wholesale change in how we live, work and give up on the need to travel!

Also, whilst battery technology will improve, batteries will eventually die and need to be replaced, I don't see that being cheap as financial greed from the suppliers, 'may' come into play and prevent savings being passed on with the fuel companies certainly guilty of this!

I will admit that I can be a bit of a dinosaur with regard to EV (my car is a E63 AMG) and am a firm believer that the words 'green' and 'enivornmental' tend to mean that someone has discovered another way of charging more.

However, I do agree and accept that things have to change but purely electric won't solve the issue, it will need to be a mixture of hydrogen, electric, solar, hydro and wind!

I do wonder why there appears to be a reluctance to the hydrogen fuel cell though, from what little I've read, it seems that the technology is available, maybe as water is the end result, people are scared we'll all end up drowning (sorry Jeremy making another appearance and said tongue in cheek :grin: ).
...and pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in Space cos there's bugger all down here on Earth!
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Re: Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby Rich.B on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 6:41 pm

Every street lampost could have 2 or even 4 charge points in them.
Rich.B

Re: Future of Airshows in the EV World

Postby maltwoser on Sat 15 Feb 2020, 7:36 am

Biggest problem with charging points is for people in shared/terraced housing, apartment blocks etc. When I was in the UK I would have been the ideal candidate for an electric car, with a commute of about 7 miles and living a couple of miles from the city centre, but why would I pay upwards of 25 grand for something I'd use for an hour a day, maybe not even that on weekends? And then pay to lease the battery separately, or know that I'd have to pay the value of the car again in 6 or 7 years to replace the battery? I agree it's likely that technology will improve rapidly but for now it's simply not viable for private users who do low mileage and happily run older cars.
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