RAF 146 replacement

[Berf]

Under a new £80 million contract with Bristol-based Centreline, four BAe146 aircraft, will be replaced by two more sustainable aircraft to continue the UK’s global engagement.

The new planes will be more sustainable thanks to their smaller engines, leading to a reduction in fuel burn and emissions. They will also be able to fly further, providing the UK greater opportunity to engage with key allies and partners.

The contract with Centreline, placed by Defence Equipment and Support (DE&S), the MOD’s procurement arm, includes the purchase of two Dassault 900LX aircraft and two years of initial support, plus three option years if required.

Dassault 900LX was successful in this competition as the standout candidate in performance, cost value and time requirements
The two-phase programme will see the aircraft initially operated by a mixed crew of civilian and RAF personnel. The aircraft will be upgraded with missile jamming systems and military communications to deliver full capability and crewed by RAF personnel. The Integrated Review and Defence Command Paper set out a bold and global vision stressing the importance of soft power, enhancing our international presence, developing on current relationships and building new ones.

After four decades of service, two BAe 146 aircraft are being preserved at the British Airliner Collection at Duxford, Cambridgeshire, and the South Wales Aviation Museum at St Athan in South Glamorgan. The remaining two aircraft have been bought by a Civilian Operator.

[DerekF]

Replacing four 146s with freight capacity with two business jets. Makes sense. They will certainly be have lower emissions as they won't be able to do most of what the 146 did. Why did they not buy the Global Express? They had the training and support infrastructure in place for the Sentinel. I guess that would involve common sense and forward planning. Something the MoD are incapable of.

[Berf]

The key phrase in the standout candidate is.... time requirements

[Tommy]

Me, whispering: I still don’t get the point of the Titan A320s

[FarnboroJohn]

The key phrase in the standout candidate is.... time requirements

But how much incompetence was required to get into a position where time was an issue?

I'd like to see the spec that a Falcon 900 meets and a G650 or Global Express doesn't. I'm not sure that running smaller engines harder is good economics, either.

[Berf]

The key phrase in the standout candidate is.... time requirements

But how much incompetence was required to get into a position where time was an issue?

I quite agree with you...

[GeeRam]

The key phrase in the standout candidate is.... time requirements

But how much incompetence was required to get into a position where time was an issue?

Its the MOD, so there would have been months of preliminary incompetence meetings and discussion on the subject, just to make sure they make a proper clusterf**k out of the situation....as normal.

[Paul Waggett]

Why not just open an account with NetJets or VistaJet?. Might even save some more cash using the empty-leg database......

[cg_341]

I'd like to see the spec that a Falcon 900 meets and a G650 or Global Express doesn't. I'm not sure that running smaller engines harder is good economics, either.

The 146 cruises at M0.7ish, usually around 23,000ft. The Falcon 900 cruises at M0.8ish, at around 38,000ft.

It is more economical, because you don't "run smaller engines harder", it's not like a car where faster = more RPM.

Why pay two or even three times the money for a new Global Express 6500, when you don't need one? For one this is actually a halfway decent procurement decision that people seem to be missing because it's not the flagship product from a manufacturer (which, by the way, would be a Falcon 8X, approximately TWICE the price of a 900LX just to buy, let alone the running costs).

[DerekF]

The could have bought second hand GLEX for a fraction of the cost as the support infrastructure already existed. They could even have converted the existing Sentinels. Airframes they already owned. It will be interesting to see how some of the 146 roles will now be fulfilled. The freight carrying, the Casevac etc. Still I'm sure the MoD know best...

[Mike]

Well, they could always use their existing C-130 fleet for some of those other tasks you mentioned

Oh…

[bizfreeq]

They could even have converted the existing Sentinels. Airframes they already owned.

To de-modify an aircraft like the Sentinel would be astronomical in monetary terms and would involve an almost complete re-build.....very cost effective solution that!

[DerekF]

They could even have converted the existing Sentinels. Airframes they already owned.

To de-modify an aircraft like the Sentinel would be astronomical in monetary terms and would involve an almost complete re-build.....very cost effective solution that!

I'm sure the combination of the RAF, MoD and defence contractors would make it expensive.

[FarnboroJohn]

I'd like to see the spec that a Falcon 900 meets and a G650 or Global Express doesn't. I'm not sure that running smaller engines harder is good economics, either.

The 146 cruises at M0.7ish, usually around 23,000ft. The Falcon 900 cruises at M0.8ish, at around 38,000ft.

It is more economical, because you don't "run smaller engines harder", it's not like a car where faster = more RPM.

Why pay two or even three times the money for a new Global Express 6500, when you don't need one? For one this is actually a halfway decent procurement decision that people seem to be missing because it's not the flagship product from a manufacturer (which, by the way, would be a Falcon 8X, approximately TWICE the price of a 900LX just to buy, let alone the running costs).

I wasn't talking about 146 v Falcon 900. The 146 is going to be history. I was talking about the options for the replacement. There has to be a reason why the G650 and Global Express exist and I would like to know why the Falcon 900 is considered a better option. To a large extent the capital cost of the airframe is a minor consideration over the life of the procurement.

[Binbrook 01]

Derek F.

Until the new customers for the RAF Sentinel fleet appeared. They had already apparently stripped out the mission kit. And they were ready for the chop. I suspect the concept of rebuilding them was far to much.... Not something you could pop some swanky carpet and a few posh seats in? I know not what they did to them structurally while building them either.

[Spiny Norman]

Putting a Union Jack on a French machine and talking about Global Britain says something about the present times.

[farnboroughrob]

The RAF transport requirements have significantly reduced post Afhganstan. Wasn't a couple of 146's purchased about 10 years ago just because of Afghanstan? If we look at France and Germany they have 3-5 VVIP aircarft (A321, A330,A350) then around the same number of smaller bizjets. We Have the A330 and 2 A321 but will be short in the smaller aircraft. I think this really brings up the question of what the point of Northolt is with out two aircarft based there for the RAF? I have been passing regually over the past few months and only see the odd civil jet now where once there were 10 or so. Seems pretty pointless to keep the runway etc, i know there are other tennants there though. Why not develop a RAF enclave at Stansted or Farnborough, plenty of room at both.

[Mike]

Wasn't a couple of 146's purchased about 10 years ago just because of Afghanstan?

Yes and no. It was also on the back of early retirement of the remaining C-130Ks. As a result, C-130Ks were coming off Majors at Cambridge, with shiny new paint jobs, and going straight to St Athan for storage (and later scrapping)

[Binbrook 01]

They have rather a lot of non aviation related things at Northolt. Having shut other facilities at other locations near London Stanmore etc.

The British Forces Post Office is one lodger.