RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

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Roughcutter
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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by Roughcutter »

It's a shame that the Swedes are static only, would've twisted my arm if they were in the flying. If I want to see Swedes on the ground then I can go down the road to Newark.
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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by Berf »

roberto wrote:
At this moment Scampton is still not mentioned on the SWAHF website, but maybe these guys are a bit lazy.



Or maybe its a voluntary organisation with several of the aircraft/volunteers away attending other airshows

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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by CJS »

Normally they're the opposite though - adding airshows for fun to their calendar which bear no resemblance to whether or not they're actually going to appear or not!
With just the slightest bit of finesse, I might have made a little less mess.

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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by austinp »

I got all excited about the Swedes. Pleased I re-read the article.

I'm back to sitting this one out. Shame, as its my local.

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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by CJS »

You have gotta wonder - as good as this static update is - if it would have happened had Jersey not been the following week. Especially if they hang around and don't go back to Sweden in between.
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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by BossMann »

When did the Swedish Air Force Historic Flight change its name to Saab Silver Wings?? They are referred as both in the scampton press releases?

The static line up is fine for a new show at RAF Scampton. Its the flying that still lets it down a little with items like the Autogyro that would never be seen at RIAT/ Waddington and are better at the free seaside airshows ( Clacton also had the Catalina, Vampire pair + MIG 15, strikemaster as well as the autogyro which are all on the Scampton list minus the MIG 15).

Are there expected to be any B1Bs and B52s at RAF Fairford during the Scampton show? I would expect DBH (based at Fairford) to get them to do flypasts at Scampton.

The Lens aircraft not been 'claimed' by sanicole yet include the Polish F16 demo, Czech Gripen, French Navy Rafale Marine duo demo, French Air Force Equip de Voltige ' Voltige Synchro' display team ( 2 x Extra 330 ) and the Canadian SkyHawks Parachute team... Maybe Sanicole can't fit them in to their already massive line up, if Scampton could get the above it would drastically change the flying display.

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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by bennysdad »

Fairly clear to see the logic behind advance ticket sales only in this case. I am travelling 300 miles from home and paying for an overnight stay based on pre bought high price tickets thinking that the ticket price indicated a great line up and a likely early sell out. Now it appears that the ticket price bears no relation to the flying display line up and rather than being needed to control the numbers each day it has far more to do with getting the cash up front so that it does not matter if the lack of an attractive final flying programme discourages people from turning up. The organisers will have made their money anyway.

I am sure that if the weather is right I will enjoy what is on offer and it will be nice to visit such a historic airfield but for me this is another nail in the coffin of my airshow attendance enthusiasm. That takes some doing for someone who has queued for hours to get out of Leuchars, endured the wait to get into RIAT and spent hours huddling under the wing of a Vulcan in the pouring rain at one of many rained off shows and kept looking forward to doing it all again next year. What it will do is make me determined not to pay any more than a day or so in advance, if at all, in the future. I will confine my attendance in future to Airshows where I can queue for a ticket on the day knowing that flying display and parking arrangements justify the cost and inconvenience. In this case I am struggling to to say there is anything in the display that makes me think it's worth enduring the dreaded park and ride let alone the high entry price. But I am often proved wrong so perhaps it's better to arrive expecting a poor show and being pleasantly surprised than anticipating a great show and being let down on the day.

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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by boff180 »

bennysdad wrote:rather than being needed to control the numbers each day it has far more to do with getting the cash up front so that it does not matter if the lack of an attractive final flying programme discourages people from turning up.


All I can say is you're very very wrong and a hell of a lot of work has gone into the show, organisers can't be blamed if foreign militaries do not choose to send assets to a new show over another. The ticket price was set long before aircraft began to even confirm.

The ill-informed conspiracy theories that are bring banded around this forum at the moment are wanting me to go around wearing a tin foil hat. :surrender:

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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by aviodromefriend »

CJS wrote:Normally they're the opposite though - adding airshows for fun to their calendar which bear no resemblance to whether or not they're actually going to appear or not!
But when they are doing that, they are not out to other airshows (as that is done during the off-season).
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bennysdad
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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by bennysdad »

boff180 wrote:
bennysdad wrote:rather than being needed to control the numbers each day it has far more to do with getting the cash up front so that it does not matter if the lack of an attractive final flying programme discourages people from turning up.


All I can say is you're very very wrong and a hell of a lot of work has gone into the show, organisers can't be blamed if foreign militaries do not choose to send assets to a new show over another. The ticket price was set long before aircraft began to even confirm.

The ill-informed conspiracy theories that are bring banded around this forum at the moment are wanting me to go around wearing a tin foil hat. :surrender:


I don't doubt that a great deal of work has gone into the organisation of the show and I am grateful that somebody has tried but my point is that setting the ticket price before the organisers knew what the flying programme was to be then insisting on no pay on the day for a new show risks the situation that we now have and enthusiasts are left feeling that they are not getting value for money. Clearly the fact that it is a new unknown show has had an effect on whether or not foreign air arms will support it. That is understandable and I don't blame them or the show organisers. Starting any new venture involves many unknowns and an airshow must be particularly difficult to predict. All that I am suggesting is that the untested elements of a new show might have prompted a bit more of an "opening offer" price wise. By all means put a premium on the tickets bought at the gate to encourage pre ordering but setting a high price and insisting on pre booking risks denting the reputation of the venue if the organisers can't get the flying participation they wanted. This reduces the chances of it becoming an annual highlight event that can justify the RIAT prices and I am sure we will all be disappointed if this show can't establish itself.

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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by vulcanshammer »

bennysdad wrote:
boff180 wrote:
bennysdad wrote:rather than being needed to control the numbers each day it has far more to do with getting the cash up front so that it does not matter if the lack of an attractive final flying programme discourages people from turning up.


All I can say is you're very very wrong and a hell of a lot of work has gone into the show, organisers can't be blamed if foreign militaries do not choose to send assets to a new show over another. The ticket price was set long before aircraft began to even confirm.

The ill-informed conspiracy theories that are bring banded around this forum at the moment are wanting me to go around wearing a tin foil hat. :surrender:


I don't doubt that a great deal of work has gone into the organisation of the show and I am grateful that somebody has tried but my point is that setting the ticket price before the organisers knew what the flying programme was to be then insisting on no pay on the day for a new show risks the situation that we now have and enthusiasts are left feeling that they are not getting value for money. Clearly the fact that it is a new unknown show has had an effect on whether or not foreign air arms will support it. That is understandable and I don't blame them or the show organisers. Starting any new venture involves many unknowns and an airshow must be particularly difficult to predict. All that I am suggesting is that the untested elements of a new show might have prompted a bit more of an "opening offer" price wise. By all means put a premium on the tickets bought at the gate to encourage pre ordering but setting a high price and insisting on pre booking risks denting the reputation of the venue if the organisers can't get the flying participation they wanted. This reduces the chances of it becoming an annual highlight event that can justify the RIAT prices and I am sure we will all be disappointed if this show can't establish itself.


They cannot offer tickets on the gate as they need to know how many people will be attending before the show starts. It's on an active military airfield.
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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by craig.mason »

Still 10 days plenty of time to add something to the flying display :snack:
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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by Finningley Boy »

vulcanshammer wrote:
bennysdad wrote:
boff180 wrote:
bennysdad wrote:rather than being needed to control the numbers each day it has far more to do with getting the cash up front so that it does not matter if the lack of an attractive final flying programme discourages people from turning up.


All I can say is you're very very wrong and a hell of a lot of work has gone into the show, organisers can't be blamed if foreign militaries do not choose to send assets to a new show over another. The ticket price was set long before aircraft began to even confirm.

The ill-informed conspiracy theories that are bring banded around this forum at the moment are wanting me to go around wearing a tin foil hat. :surrender:


I don't doubt that a great deal of work has gone into the organisation of the show and I am grateful that somebody has tried but my point is that setting the ticket price before the organisers knew what the flying programme was to be then insisting on no pay on the day for a new show risks the situation that we now have and enthusiasts are left feeling that they are not getting value for money. Clearly the fact that it is a new unknown show has had an effect on whether or not foreign air arms will support it. That is understandable and I don't blame them or the show organisers. Starting any new venture involves many unknowns and an airshow must be particularly difficult to predict. All that I am suggesting is that the untested elements of a new show might have prompted a bit more of an "opening offer" price wise. By all means put a premium on the tickets bought at the gate to encourage pre ordering but setting a high price and insisting on pre booking risks denting the reputation of the venue if the organisers can't get the flying participation they wanted. This reduces the chances of it becoming an annual highlight event that can justify the RIAT prices and I am sure we will all be disappointed if this show can't establish itself.


They cannot offer tickets on the gate as they need to know how many people will be attending before the show starts. It's on an active military airfield.


So for all those years that more active military airfields than you can list on a piece of paper, front and back, with pencil holding air shows, a sight better than that being proffered here at Scampton, not one until very recently 'Cosford and Fairford' sold tickets in advance only? Yeovilton still sell tickets at the gate, as did Culdrose, Waddington, Leuchars and all the others down the years! :cuppa:

Duxford fancy themselves enough to operate an advance ticket only policy and they are not an active military airfield! They're just full of it. I sense the whiff of corporate event thinking behind all of this nonsense currently ruining air shows and the whole bloody atmosphere.

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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by Finningley Boy »

craig.mason wrote:Still 10 days plenty of time to add something to the flying display :snack:


It would be interesting to know who they're waiting on and what they reckon the chances are?

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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by bennysdad »

vulcanshammer wrote:
bennysdad wrote:
boff180 wrote:
bennysdad wrote:rather than being needed to control the numbers each day it has far more to do with getting the cash up front so that it does not matter if the lack of an attractive final flying programme discourages people from turning up.


All I can say is you're very very wrong and a hell of a lot of work has gone into the show, organisers can't be blamed if foreign militaries do not choose to send assets to a new show over another. The ticket price was set long before aircraft began to even confirm.

The ill-informed conspiracy theories that are bring banded around this forum at the moment are wanting me to go around wearing a tin foil hat. :surrender:


I don't doubt that a great deal of work has gone into the organisation of the show and I am grateful that somebody has tried but my point is that setting the ticket price before the organisers knew what the flying programme was to be then insisting on no pay on the day for a new show risks the situation that we now have and enthusiasts are left feeling that they are not getting value for money. Clearly the fact that it is a new unknown show has had an effect on whether or not foreign air arms will support it. That is understandable and I don't blame them or the show organisers. Starting any new venture involves many unknowns and an airshow must be particularly difficult to predict. All that I am suggesting is that the untested elements of a new show might have prompted a bit more of an "opening offer" price wise. By all means put a premium on the tickets bought at the gate to encourage pre ordering but setting a high price and insisting on pre booking risks denting the reputation of the venue if the organisers can't get the flying participation they wanted. This reduces the chances of it becoming an annual highlight event that can justify the RIAT prices and I am sure we will all be disappointed if this show can't establish itself.


They cannot offer tickets on the gate as they need to know how many people will be attending before the show starts. It's on an active military airfield.


If they have a limited number of tickets available then there can't be any more on the airfield than the number of tickets they sell. Pre booking only helps with traffic management OUTSIDE the airshow to prevent far more traffic turning up than have any hope of getting a ticket. I understand the perfectly valid reasons why this procedure is adopted when demand vastly outstrips supply and causes gridlock on approach roads. I just think it's a bit of overkill for the first show at a location with a good transport network and options for a good traffic management plan..

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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by boff180 »

You're forgetting multiple reasons for advanced ticket only. To name but a few.

The organisers have to plan for the "worst" and assume a sell out, they can't just guess the show will be undersold and put tickets on the gates. Perhaps the organisers have designed the show to cater for a specific number of people?

It's also not just traffic management outside, it's managing limited parking inside the showground. There are now very very few major public events that you can buy tickets to on the day due to capacity limitations. Times change - perhaps not for the better - but they change none the less.

Then there is insurance, it's one of the biggest reasons the larger events have gone advanced ticket only. Insurance companies want to know exactly how many tickets they're covering and by the far the most effective way of doing this is via advanced ticket only, it helps limit premiums.

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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by bennysdad »

boff180 wrote:You're forgetting multiple reasons for advanced ticket only. To name but a few.

The organisers have to plan for the "worst" and assume a sell out, they can't just guess the show will be undersold and put tickets on the gates. Perhaps the organisers have designed the show to cater for a specific number of people?

It's also not just traffic management outside, it's managing limited parking inside the showground. There are now very very few major public events that you can buy tickets to on the day due to capacity limitations. Times change - perhaps not for the better - but they change none the less.

Then there is insurance, it's one of the biggest reasons the larger events have gone advanced ticket only. Insurance companies want to know exactly how many tickets they're covering and by the far the most effective way of doing this is via advanced ticket only, it helps limit premiums.


You are right about times changing for the worse and I really do appreciate the organisers' efforts to get a new airshow going. I suspect I am suffering from over active nostalgia and rose tinted glasses. I have built up an expectation of an airshow to match the RAF shows of old and do justice to an iconic venue and am anticipating disappointment. Getting up in the middle of the night to beat the queues and sitting for hours in a traffic jam to get home was just part of the enthusiasts experience but that is probably unacceptable now. Please keep trying for more flying participants and fingers crossed for a great day to prove what a curmudgeonly old git I am.

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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by Finningley Boy »

boff180 wrote:You're forgetting multiple reasons for advanced ticket only. To name but a few.

The organisers have to plan for the "worst" and assume a sell out, they can't just guess the show will be undersold and put tickets on the gates. Perhaps the organisers have designed the show to cater for a specific number of people?

It's also not just traffic management outside, it's managing limited parking inside the showground. There are now very very few major public events that you can buy tickets to on the day due to capacity limitations. Times change - perhaps not for the better - but they change none the less.

Then there is insurance, it's one of the biggest reasons the larger events have gone advanced ticket only. Insurance companies want to know exactly how many tickets they're covering and by the far the most effective way of doing this is via advanced ticket only, it helps limit premiums.

So how do Yeovilton and Dunsfold still get away with behaving like nowts changed? Leuchars and Waddington right up to the end never changed, same with Culdrose!? Are you sure this isn't a further demonstration of over engineering/organising the event? Sort of if its good enough for RIAT its good enough for us!? RIAT invented this nonsense because they feared (I suspect) a combination of cars, bad weather and Security procedures gumming up the flow of punters in and out after the debacle of 2008.

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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by AARDVARK »

XP282 wrote:I don't understand what the issue is with having these aircraft on the ground. I've never seen some of them up close in person and I wouldn't get the chance to do so if they were flying. I have to agree, the flying is still poor, but as far as the static goes, it doesn't look like a bad show now.


No issue ,but I guess it's just a shame as the whole reason for the Historic Flight is to display them in the air,bit of course it will be interesting to see these rare airframes up close ,personally I have been fortunate to see them display on many occasions so it's not going to entice me to spend lots of money to attend.

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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by Gonzo230 »

Really does make one wonder why some people bother to organise airshows.

If they don't announce loads of star items up front then they're being lazy or not trying hard enough. If they announce items within a few weeks of the show then it 'smells of desperation'.

If they set the ticket prices early then they're gouging the public, but then if they publicise reduced prices or special offers then they are obviously not selling enough tickets, and any warning they give that they're about to sell out is a ruse to get us all to rush to buy.

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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by Wrexham Mackem »

Gonzo230 wrote:Really does make one wonder why some people bother to organise airshows.

If they don't announce loads of star items up front then they're being lazy or not trying hard enough. If they announce items within a few weeks of the show then it 'smells of desperation'.

If they set the ticket prices early then they're gouging the public, but then if they publicise reduced prices or special offers then they are obviously not selling enough tickets, and any warning they give that they're about to sell out is a ruse to get us all to rush to buy.


Agreed. The RAFCTE know how to organise a show, and do so with the motive of making money for their charities. The idea that would under perform on purpose, or generally mess about with anything other than their core objective, is utterly ludicrous.

While airshows aren't currently as fashionable as they once were in the RAF, the notion that they would deliberately under-support an event is equally ludicrous.

For one reason or another, this show appears to have suffered a run of rotten luck on the allocation of military assets. Even by the law of averages I'm sure they would have expected more. I'm still crossing my fingers, they're getting sore now :-)

Advance tickets, prices and availability is a separate debate, but in this case there was nothing forcing any of us to buy early. They may well be available up to midnight the night before. I bought early because I expected an early sell out. That was my call, my judgement, nobody else's fault.
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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by jalfrezi »

Expecting countries that have already sent military assets to this country for RIAT, to then also send assets free of charge to Scampton is unrealistic, this is probably why Sanicole has secured so many this year, as for many countries it's their first trip to Belgium. Having said that, it's still a poor lineup for the money, £25 for a ticket would have been more reasonable.

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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by planenuttoo »

It is far easier and safer for there to be no ticket sales on the gate. There is no need to set up payment facilities with the wonders of modern technology involved, no security risk for the staff, nor risk as to the transport of the cash payments.

"Online" payment does exclude a lot of people who would have no access to it, or could make a decision based on the weather.

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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by Wrexham Mackem »

jalfrezi wrote:Expecting countries that have already sent military assets to this country for RIAT, to then also send assets free of charge to Scampton is unrealistic, this is probably why Sanicole has secured so many this year, as for many countries it's their first trip to Belgium.


No and yes.

There no reason why display teams don't visit any given country twice, so its not an unrealistic notion to invite them again. But there's no doubt that Sanicole has had allocations at Scampton's expense; Sanicole is very popular with crews, its a special year for the show, and its the only event in Belgium, a country very generous with their support in turn.
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Re: RAF Scampton Air Show 2017

Post by Finningley Boy »

jalfrezi wrote:Expecting countries that have already sent military assets to this country for RIAT, to then also send assets free of charge to Scampton is unrealistic, this is probably why Sanicole has secured so many this year, as for many countries it's their first trip to Belgium. Having said that, it's still a poor lineup for the money, £25 for a ticket would have been more reasonable.

JALFREZI,

Sanicole secure this level of participation all the time, they've not picked on the lack of Scampton's luck. The problem here seems to be selecting dates which clash with anything continent side! That's it, it has become a phenomenon of the last 10 years or so, if there's anything of any repute going on anywhere from Sanicole to Ostrava then for some reason stuff from the Baltic cold of Finland bypasses the UK, along the way save a slight nudge eastward to head for Belgium, Czech Republic and so on.

This is why criticism from folk like Dan O'Hagan is actually constructive to a degree, the organisers, I'm absolutely certain beyond doubt, are doing their damndest best to convince a variety of military air arms to come and strut their stuff over the weekend 9th-10th September 2017 over Scampton. But they should know by now, liaise through the European Air Show Council or whatever it is, ensure there is no conflict of interest. As for the SWAFHF, I'm not sure the problem with them isn't simply that they haven't been issued a DA from the now overtly squeamish CAA/MAA herewith. But again, regarding criticism of Scampton, it was their decision to go down the route of assuming a rush at the gates in anticipation that the show was going to be grand. On the other hand in anticipation of poor turnout because, as appears to be the case, they haven't quite played a blinder, the rationale of advance ticket sales still applies because numpties like yours truly bought into the show many months ago expecting that on the face of it this would really come up trumps, not quite RIAT, but certainly; Waddington and Leuchars on average!

Instead we're saddled with impressive overseas visitors who have to remain on terra firma almost certainly due to British admin! and a good sea front(not by a long chalk the best) air show. As for why they do it, the question has been answered, to make money for charities and in the past, by and large, it has worked very well! :cuppa:

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