Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
Unfortunately a reposition flight is in my opinion a flight of fancy (pun intended).
The only way I could see the CAA even considering such an endeavour would be a major overhaul and freshly overhauled/certified engines which I don't think they can afford or achieve in the timeframes.
Sadly that means dismantling to relocate elsewhere - it's been done before but would it mean that she would not taxi again? How does that effect the lottery grant terms?
If she isn't going to move again, I think there is a risk going anywhere near Kemble or Elvington. If there is space, Manchester Airport would be my suggestion, parked with the Concorde as a symbol of something made in the area. That being said, the Woodford aircraft should be relocated there as a more suitable airframe.
The future certainly isn't bright for XH558.
Thanks
Andy
The only way I could see the CAA even considering such an endeavour would be a major overhaul and freshly overhauled/certified engines which I don't think they can afford or achieve in the timeframes.
Sadly that means dismantling to relocate elsewhere - it's been done before but would it mean that she would not taxi again? How does that effect the lottery grant terms?
If she isn't going to move again, I think there is a risk going anywhere near Kemble or Elvington. If there is space, Manchester Airport would be my suggestion, parked with the Concorde as a symbol of something made in the area. That being said, the Woodford aircraft should be relocated there as a more suitable airframe.
The future certainly isn't bright for XH558.
Thanks
Andy
Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
There is no space at Manchester Airport. The airport want to reduce the size of the viewing area, not make it larger.
Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
Elvington have released a statement saying it is NOT going there
Hopefully this puts paid to the 'it will be only be a short ferry flight' brigade
Hopefully this puts paid to the 'it will be only be a short ferry flight' brigade
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
thanks Mike, I think the ferry flight is the by far less likely option and the word 'short' was in the e-mail. I'm struggling to thing of anywhere else logical just a 'short' flight away but how long (or short) is a piece of string.
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
I wonder if the Plane Tags folks would be interested. It would keep them in raw materials for keyrings for years to come.
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
St Athan has been mentioned, but I feel there are a couple of points against it as things stand.
For those who think that the SWAM is actually within the airfield environs, it isn't -- it's about 500m North, part of a bunch of outlying hangars near Picketston.
Part of the plan by VTST is to have XH558 under cover....nowhere near SWAM to do this & I don't think it would physically fit in their existing museum hangar even if they had room for it -- the Shackleton's outside & I think that's where the DC-6 & BAe-146 will also be displayed.
Yes, they could theoretically stick it within the environs of the airfield, but they'd be left with the issues of where ( given the number of companies already there ) and the fact that it's not exactly public access.
But the main sticking point for wherever XH558 goes? VTST themselves.
Would SWAM ( in the form of Gary Spoors & John Sparks ) be prepared to kowtow to any demands VTST are likely to make, or their future involvement once the aircraft is moved there?
If not, would they be prepared to stump up the presumably silly amount VTST would likely ask for the airframe ( am I right in thinking they valued it as something like £2mil ? )
For that matter, would any other location do so?
For those who think that the SWAM is actually within the airfield environs, it isn't -- it's about 500m North, part of a bunch of outlying hangars near Picketston.
Part of the plan by VTST is to have XH558 under cover....nowhere near SWAM to do this & I don't think it would physically fit in their existing museum hangar even if they had room for it -- the Shackleton's outside & I think that's where the DC-6 & BAe-146 will also be displayed.
Yes, they could theoretically stick it within the environs of the airfield, but they'd be left with the issues of where ( given the number of companies already there ) and the fact that it's not exactly public access.
But the main sticking point for wherever XH558 goes? VTST themselves.
Would SWAM ( in the form of Gary Spoors & John Sparks ) be prepared to kowtow to any demands VTST are likely to make, or their future involvement once the aircraft is moved there?
If not, would they be prepared to stump up the presumably silly amount VTST would likely ask for the airframe ( am I right in thinking they valued it as something like £2mil ? )
For that matter, would any other location do so?
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
Nice to see you back BC.
I think you are right, who would really want to host VTST?
Has there been any comments on the more historically significant Canberra in their care?
I think you are right, who would really want to host VTST?
Has there been any comments on the more historically significant Canberra in their care?
Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
Good point re VTST and considerations of it being under cover etc - I suspect that a point will be reached where beggars can’t be choosers. I hope it doesn’t come down to various “pledges” to build hangars that are unlikely to ever materialise.
(Good to see you back, BC)
And yes, Saints would be disassembled - I doubt they could get it to SWAM from the airfield (though I haven’t been there much since they put all the new roads in so perhaps it’s easier now).
(Good to see you back, BC)
And yes, Saints would be disassembled - I doubt they could get it to SWAM from the airfield (though I haven’t been there much since they put all the new roads in so perhaps it’s easier now).
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
Forget zero time engines as they don't exist, which was part of the trouble towards the end of its flying days 7 years ago........and as you say a major, would be required which isn't going to happen either.
I remember all the faff with the CAA when the Lightning Association were trying to arrange the one off ferry flight of F.6 XR724 from store at RAF Shawbury to Binbrook under a G reg, and that was with fitting lots of zero time parts loaned by Barry Power including two zero hr bagged and tagged engines etc., and CAA still said no. It took a hugely generous offer from BAe to put it back under its temporary ownership, and thus operate it under the old COMO, and get the late grate Baz Livesey from Warton to check it all out once the work was complete and sign it all off so BAe TP Peter Gordon-Johnson could fly it from Shawbury to Binbrook on one final flight. Warton were still flying the 3 x F6's still under their Tornado radar contract, so '724 had only flown into Shawbury about 18 months before as well....so it hadn't been sitting on the ground for 7 years!!
IMHO, only way '558 will leave DSA is in a skip, with hopefully as many bits of her and all the spares left, going to the 655 and 426 teams (I doubt VTTS will be that generous though.....they probably rather sell of all the bits to raise money to pay their last paychecks )
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
"Vulcan back to the Sky" more comebacks than Frank Sinatra - my fear is that they start a new campaign and convice people to donate for "one last flight" - people who know more about this than I do know it's very very very unlikely. Surely, they have a legal resonsibilty to know that this is a realistic option (legally, financially and technically) before putting that option formally in writing?
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
IMHO, save the cockpit as someone will buy that or even the trust could still operate it, and scrap the rest. The whole, sorry, saga has dragged on for far too long now and frankly, I'm bored by it all.
Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
Thankfully the VTTS have a marvellous track record of achievement and despite the ever present scepticism, I believe if anyone can come up with a workable solution, they can. I don't believe a so called ferry flight could ever be feasible and so the solution must lie in dismantling and a road move. The extent to which removal of components would be necessary is unclear. Obviously removal of wings and engines is a given and other weight saving measures are inevitable. The key unknown is whether such components can be removed and restored in a manner whereby the airframe remains operational and capable of engine runs and taxying. If the VTTS could provide clarity on this I'm sure this would aid fundraising, etc. As for locations, this would be a severe challenge. Some like Duxford already have a Vulcan but I don't think this completely rules out them being a candidate; indeed there would be much prestige in such a celebrated aircraft being present and would surely aid revenue for the venue. However a Bruntingthorpe type scenario must be avoided if at all possible, which of course is difficult to the extreme. And then there's the Canberra.....
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
I know it was some time ago now but Duxford have also public ally said they don't want it.
Its all smoke and mirrors from VTTS in my opinion, it'll never fly out and they will never raise enough money to move it anywhere by road. They don't come apart for road transport so various bits would have to be cut (as per one the one at Hendon). Many people say that would preclude it ever ground running again.
Its all smoke and mirrors from VTTS in my opinion, it'll never fly out and they will never raise enough money to move it anywhere by road. They don't come apart for road transport so various bits would have to be cut (as per one the one at Hendon). Many people say that would preclude it ever ground running again.
Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
Oh dear.106500 wrote: ↑Mon 15 Aug 2022, 2:53 pmThankfully the VTTS have a marvellous track record of achievement and despite the ever present scepticism, I believe if anyone can come up with a workable solution, they can. I don't believe a so called ferry flight could ever be feasible and so the solution must lie in dismantling and a road move. The extent to which removal of components would be necessary is unclear.
Anyway, its not unclear, as its been done before when Crash n Smash dismantled the RAFM Hendon example, but that's was the RAF doing it, and knowing it was never going to be live again, so a lot of the electrical looms at the joints were cut through. It was still a huge undertaking and why would you do it when there are plenty of dead Vulcans in museums already?
Here's XL318 in pieces ready for transport to Hendon.
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
I don't think any of us are suprised about this. Although even the much vaunted move to Bruntingthorpe could also have ment a unsecure future as we have seen. Question is are they looking for an establised museum to take on 558, or set up somewhere else on their own as a stand alone?? The previous track record suggest they may be looking at the latter? The short road trip to the Aeroventure in Doncaster could be possible, although they don't have a massive amount of room. Its its not Elvington there aren't many options that have security of tenure that mean a long term future for the airframe.
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
A number of problems there, though.....
1. Joe Public & family have a lot less ( if any ) disposable income available at the moment to be able to chuck any at an aircraft - just look at the decrease in donations to ordinary charities.
2. To put it bluntly, a number of the individuals who in the past have made sizeable donations are now dead, so that's one revenue stream gone.
3. In the past, the various appeals have tended to have mainstream media involved, even if that involvement only happened - can you see that happening this time around?
Can Vulcans be dismantled? Can't remember if it was posted on here or elsewhere, but apparently the answer is yes.
Whether or not the expertise still exists to do so ( and, more importantly, to reassemble it correctly ) is another matter.
Would there be a need for the capability to carry out engine runs / taxying, given that the wherever it ends up may not have the space for that to happen?
As for the Canberra, theoretically that's a lot simpler proposition.....assuming that VTST don't make excessive demands, such as insisting both airframes are kept together
Edited to say :
Ref. the above in bold, beaten to it by GeeRam
1. Joe Public & family have a lot less ( if any ) disposable income available at the moment to be able to chuck any at an aircraft - just look at the decrease in donations to ordinary charities.
2. To put it bluntly, a number of the individuals who in the past have made sizeable donations are now dead, so that's one revenue stream gone.
3. In the past, the various appeals have tended to have mainstream media involved, even if that involvement only happened - can you see that happening this time around?
Can Vulcans be dismantled? Can't remember if it was posted on here or elsewhere, but apparently the answer is yes.
Whether or not the expertise still exists to do so ( and, more importantly, to reassemble it correctly ) is another matter.
Would there be a need for the capability to carry out engine runs / taxying, given that the wherever it ends up may not have the space for that to happen?
As for the Canberra, theoretically that's a lot simpler proposition.....assuming that VTST don't make excessive demands, such as insisting both airframes are kept together
Edited to say :
Ref. the above in bold, beaten to it by GeeRam
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
It's not for me to tell anyone how to spend their money, but I strongly feel that any donations should now probably go to the VRT at Southend.
They need an achievable amount to get their aircraft in a hangar, and they can still fast taxi and have regular open days.
I just think now is the time to get the money going to a Vulcan that seems to be in the best position right now, and for me that is XL426.
They need an achievable amount to get their aircraft in a hangar, and they can still fast taxi and have regular open days.
I just think now is the time to get the money going to a Vulcan that seems to be in the best position right now, and for me that is XL426.
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
I just hope that the spares they have can now be used to support the other Vulcans where compatible, if they have not already been doing that.
I wonder if XM607 still needs an entrance door lock and if it does can they now have one of the spare ones that 558 had, I did try years ago when 607's door lock got damaged but was not allowed one of their spare ones at the time.
As for moving her, as others have said a ferry flight is not likely to be permitted and dismantling and moving would be an expensive undertaking and who would do it, again, as others have said, there won't be the money around to help this time and certainly not in the quantities that would be needed.
I wonder if XM607 still needs an entrance door lock and if it does can they now have one of the spare ones that 558 had, I did try years ago when 607's door lock got damaged but was not allowed one of their spare ones at the time.
As for moving her, as others have said a ferry flight is not likely to be permitted and dismantling and moving would be an expensive undertaking and who would do it, again, as others have said, there won't be the money around to help this time and certainly not in the quantities that would be needed.
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
I might have posted this on an earlier 558 thread, but with regard to the money, VTTS said they raised £500K for the visitor centre appeal and also said that 9/10 donors allowed them to keep their money.ExVulcanGC wrote: ↑Mon 15 Aug 2022, 4:30 pmAs for moving her, as others have said a ferry flight is not likely to be permitted and dismantling and moving would be an expensive undertaking and who would do it, again, as others have said, there won't be the money around to help this time and certainly not in the quantities that would be needed.
So that leaves a £450K ‘nest egg’ which should make a substantial inroad into the costs of dismantling the aircraft or a one-off ferry flight. That, coupled with donations from yet another ‘Save the Vulcan’ campaign, will I’m sure make the move affordable.
Ken
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
I did not know that they had so much money 'left over' I had the impression that it had been used for the ongoing costs to date trying to keep her in the news/engine running/planning for new accommodation etc, if that is the case then yes it will go a long way to getting her moved. Pity that one of those recent lottery winners who won large amounts of money is not a Vulcan fan.
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
They only finished consulting with the donors a month or two back, so I’d be shocked if they’ve spent a sum like that on running costs in such a short time. I’m not sure what, if any, costs they would have had regarding planning for new accommodation, certainly not until Peel made its announcement about Doncaster’s future.ExVulcanGC wrote: ↑Mon 15 Aug 2022, 5:28 pmI did not know that they had so much money 'left over' I had the impression that it had been used for the ongoing costs to date trying to keep her in the news/engine running/planning for new accommodation etc, if that is the case then yes it will go a long way to getting her moved. Pity that one of those recent lottery winners who won large amounts of money is not a Vulcan fan.
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
Fair enough, I have been out of touch for a while and just picked up snippets here and there which obviously don't add up, it will be interesting to see where they go from here and how much financial support will be out there, what is interesting now is who would want/be able to have 558, and would the current team expect to stay in control at a new home.
Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
I wish someone would take a disc cutter to this aircraft and put it out of its misery.
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Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
From memory, I don't think this was ever a realistic option (despite people posting it on forums etc) as didn't D Walton state that he didn't want it at Brunty pretty much as soon as VTTS announced her retirement 12 months ahead of its final flight....??farnboroughrob wrote: ↑Mon 15 Aug 2022, 3:48 pmI don't think any of us are suprised about this. Although even the much vaunted move to Bruntingthorpe could also have ment a unsecure future as we have seen.
Re: Vulcan XH558 to leave Doncaster, possible ferry flight
I quite agree.centaurus18 wrote: ↑Mon 15 Aug 2022, 10:14 amSaving the historically significant Canberra should be the priority... and far more achievable both in terms of cost and size of airframe to move.
Whilst it would be very sad for '558 to be chopped up, they could keep the cockpit as a visitor exhibit, and surely any panels with names on could be kept? The Canberra is a more realistic proposition and could potentially fly.