Time for a new UK military airshow?
Time for a new UK military airshow?
In my post RIAT comedown i'm really lamenting the good old days where you'd get a chance to see some modern military heavy metal at airshows for several weekends up to September. I fondly remember Scampton in 2017 which was really lambasted at the time, but which I really enjoyed and would have gladly attended again (yes - even at those prices!)
Every airshow I go to these days seems to be packed, regardless of pricing so I wonder if the market is there for another military show. Maybe even time for RAFCTE to dip their toe in the water again with a September show?
... maybe i'm dreaming...
Every airshow I go to these days seems to be packed, regardless of pricing so I wonder if the market is there for another military show. Maybe even time for RAFCTE to dip their toe in the water again with a September show?
... maybe i'm dreaming...
Re: Time for a new UK military airshow?
September's a really bad time for a new mil shows as the calendar is already chock-full in mainland Europe so assets are generally committed elsewhere. ISTR that was one of the main complaints with Scampton last time
Just bring back VL!
Just bring back VL!
Re: Time for a new UK military airshow?
Bringing back Yeovilton (appreciate it wasn’t held during August/September) would be a decent start.
It would be excellent for RAF Waddington to return, too. Appreciate security stuff given the Shawdow/Airseeker fleet, but that never stopped them before, and now the Red Arrows are shortly to be based there, it’s seems a bit axiomatic for anyone to be serious about security concerns.
It would be excellent for RAF Waddington to return, too. Appreciate security stuff given the Shawdow/Airseeker fleet, but that never stopped them before, and now the Red Arrows are shortly to be based there, it’s seems a bit axiomatic for anyone to be serious about security concerns.
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tomdjones/
Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/tomd.jones/
Hell is other people.
Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/tomd.jones/
Hell is other people.
Re: Time for a new UK military airshow?
We also miss Leuchars which used to be in September
What do you call a horse that lives nextdoor?? - A Neigh-bour!
Whisky Connoisseur
Whisky Connoisseur
-
- Posts: 2117
- Joined: Fri 05 Jun 2009, 8:31 am
Re: Time for a new UK military airshow?
I would love to see a new military airshow but feel there is a total lack of commitment from the forces. We need to see comitment to show atleast a couple of aircraft from each squadron on the ground ( transports, Airseeker etc excluded) and atleast a demonstration of each type in the air. A real revival of the old 'RAF at home ' event, doesn't need to be massive. Add some RN and AAC helicopters and a smattering of NATO aircraft. Maybe one year at Benson or Odiham and next year Marham/Scampton/Waddington?
Re: Time for a new UK military airshow?
Naff sticker aside, the commitment the RAF put into shows like RIAT and RAF Cosford (and others) in 2018 is the same commitment most foreign air forces put to their big standard annual/biennial air shows. Perhaps even slightly less because it was mostly just same-type or mixed-type flypasts, there was no real combined-aircraft demo (such as a mass of Chinooks, or Typhoons intercepting an A400 or something). The difference is that for foreign shows, that’s usually it in each country, perhaps a smattering of smaller events, whereas the RAF displays consistently have some of the busiest domestic calendars in Europe.
It’s been said before but there are so many events, from village fetes to RIAT, from local food festivals to the Queen’s Birthday Flypast, all vying for aircraft participation. It’s probably a bit simple to say the RAF/MoD don’t have the will (albeit I did lament the “that’ll do-ism” in the RIAT wishlist), but they’re massively in demand. In fact, I’ve not done any maths on this, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the U.K. had per capita the most airshows in the world. Or second perhaps to the US.
The “lack of will” vibe comes from, I think, a lack of imagination. I’m not convinced it’s a costs thing, but why is there no Texan solo after the Tucano retired? Has no thought been given to a Prefect or Phenom display? No Atlas demo? They did try to bring in a Hawk T2 pair in 2015 but that seems to have died a death.
All of these things are, in my view, quite doable, but as with anything new, it’s far easier to think of all the reasons not to do something than to fight through to making it happen in spite of those reasons.
As always, the boots seem to be dead keen - you only have to talk to the crews at airshows to see how much they love being there. It’s the suits at the top who don’t really get it. It’s not that they don’t want to do it, but rather, the prospect of something new raises loads of questions and problems, whereas the prospect of falling back onto the same old formula is nice and comfortable.
The worst victim of this corporate attitude, I think, is that the RAF and Army always seem to miss the boat on retirements (the RN are slightly better). They seem to forget that their public engagement months are May - September, that’s when the majority of public can see them. Take next year for example - we’re losing the C-130 (though this might now be reversed) - was there no desire for a special tail? Or hell, even a couple of missed approaches/flypasts at some events? No, the suits won’t think of that until February, and then they’ll put together a without-notice plan to fly around a couple of U.K. airfields on a rainy Tuesday and that’ll be it.
Those two special tails and the all over special scheme on the Tornados would have been bloody great for airshows in 2018, but instead the public were none the wiser, and only a handful of enthusiasts who had the time and the means to get to Marham in February 2019 ever saw them.
Anyway - gosh, the above is such a massive ramble. Apologies all. It could have been much more concisely put to “Whitehall suits are unimaginative”.
It’s been said before but there are so many events, from village fetes to RIAT, from local food festivals to the Queen’s Birthday Flypast, all vying for aircraft participation. It’s probably a bit simple to say the RAF/MoD don’t have the will (albeit I did lament the “that’ll do-ism” in the RIAT wishlist), but they’re massively in demand. In fact, I’ve not done any maths on this, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the U.K. had per capita the most airshows in the world. Or second perhaps to the US.
The “lack of will” vibe comes from, I think, a lack of imagination. I’m not convinced it’s a costs thing, but why is there no Texan solo after the Tucano retired? Has no thought been given to a Prefect or Phenom display? No Atlas demo? They did try to bring in a Hawk T2 pair in 2015 but that seems to have died a death.
All of these things are, in my view, quite doable, but as with anything new, it’s far easier to think of all the reasons not to do something than to fight through to making it happen in spite of those reasons.
As always, the boots seem to be dead keen - you only have to talk to the crews at airshows to see how much they love being there. It’s the suits at the top who don’t really get it. It’s not that they don’t want to do it, but rather, the prospect of something new raises loads of questions and problems, whereas the prospect of falling back onto the same old formula is nice and comfortable.
The worst victim of this corporate attitude, I think, is that the RAF and Army always seem to miss the boat on retirements (the RN are slightly better). They seem to forget that their public engagement months are May - September, that’s when the majority of public can see them. Take next year for example - we’re losing the C-130 (though this might now be reversed) - was there no desire for a special tail? Or hell, even a couple of missed approaches/flypasts at some events? No, the suits won’t think of that until February, and then they’ll put together a without-notice plan to fly around a couple of U.K. airfields on a rainy Tuesday and that’ll be it.
Those two special tails and the all over special scheme on the Tornados would have been bloody great for airshows in 2018, but instead the public were none the wiser, and only a handful of enthusiasts who had the time and the means to get to Marham in February 2019 ever saw them.
Anyway - gosh, the above is such a massive ramble. Apologies all. It could have been much more concisely put to “Whitehall suits are unimaginative”.
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tomdjones/
Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/tomd.jones/
Hell is other people.
Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/tomd.jones/
Hell is other people.
Re: Time for a new UK military airshow?
(To add - it’s not as black ad white as the above is made to sound - I’m amazed, for example, at the Typhoon’s special colours these past few years and I celebrate such imagination and willingness - when the RAF do pull their socks up, they can achieve amazing moments/things - but even with that you contrast it with European counterparts and think “well, the Belgian F-16 solo has rotated special colours every couple of years for decades, and France is farting out so many special Rafale schemes we end up losing count”)
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tomdjones/
Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/tomd.jones/
Hell is other people.
Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/tomd.jones/
Hell is other people.
Re: Time for a new UK military airshow?
The reason for the lack of Texan, Phenom etc demos is, I believe, that they are privately-owned and leased to the RAF under MFTS. That said, at least we did get a couple of Texans make a flypast at Cosford, and an AirTanker Voyager at RIAT.
Re: Time for a new UK military airshow?
Indeed, and that might be something to be overcome, but without looking at the wording of the actual contracts, I’d be quite surprised if there was anything expressly forbidding display flying (what trainer is prevented from doing aerobatics, which is part of the training syllabus) or weekend work.
I think the Junos/Jupiters are under a similar MFTS/Ascent arrangement and yet they manage to act as the Reds’ hacks most summer weekends, so there must be something in there that allows (or doesn’t expressly prohibit) out of hours operations on the weekend for airshow shuttling.
It’s precisely this point I’m making - it’s very easy for the RAF to look at any idea/proposal/plan and think of obstacles, but the tougher and more rewarding path is to look at overcoming them.
I think the Junos/Jupiters are under a similar MFTS/Ascent arrangement and yet they manage to act as the Reds’ hacks most summer weekends, so there must be something in there that allows (or doesn’t expressly prohibit) out of hours operations on the weekend for airshow shuttling.
It’s precisely this point I’m making - it’s very easy for the RAF to look at any idea/proposal/plan and think of obstacles, but the tougher and more rewarding path is to look at overcoming them.
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tomdjones/
Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/tomd.jones/
Hell is other people.
Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/tomd.jones/
Hell is other people.
Re: Time for a new UK military airshow?
I might be in the minority, but i’d happily attend a 4 hour show in the winter. I’m sick of being at shows where the heat was too much to enjoy it. An airshow wrapped up in a coat with a hot chocolate, sounds good to me.
Some of my favourite RIATs were the ones where it wasn’t baking. 2012/2016/2017/2019…
Can understand this wouldn’t be feasible as demo teams use this time to practice!
Some of my favourite RIATs were the ones where it wasn’t baking. 2012/2016/2017/2019…
Can understand this wouldn’t be feasible as demo teams use this time to practice!
Re: Time for a new UK military airshow?
Also the winter is when essential maintenance is done as wellJMC wrote: ↑Wed 17 Aug 2022, 10:03 pmI might be in the minority, but i’d happily attend a 4 hour show in the winter. I’m sick of being at shows where the heat was too much to enjoy it. An airshow wrapped up in a coat with a hot chocolate, sounds good to me.
Some of my favourite RIATs were the ones where it wasn’t baking. 2012/2016/2017/2019…
Can understand this wouldn’t be feasible as demo teams use this time to practice!
What do you call a horse that lives nextdoor?? - A Neigh-bour!
Whisky Connoisseur
Whisky Connoisseur
- capercaillie
- Posts: 9326
- Joined: Mon 01 Sep 2008, 3:04 pm
- Location: Leominster
Re: Time for a new UK military airshow?
What fun, sitting on a huge flat space, freezing your unts off watching a grey Typhoon or whatever performing in near dark conditions, unable to press the shutter as its either frozen solid with ice, your gloves are too thick or your eyelashes have frozen to your eyball and you are in far too much pain.
Or maybe it would be a case of watching from the car and counting how many folk slip over and dislocate body parts on the ice rink static parks, or the number of cars that get stuck in the quagmire field after weeks of heavy rain.
Examining your pics at home to see if after 4 hours of induced hypothermia the IS on your camera actually compensated for your constant shivering.
Why not, bring it on!
Or maybe it would be a case of watching from the car and counting how many folk slip over and dislocate body parts on the ice rink static parks, or the number of cars that get stuck in the quagmire field after weeks of heavy rain.
Examining your pics at home to see if after 4 hours of induced hypothermia the IS on your camera actually compensated for your constant shivering.
Why not, bring it on!
Re: Time for a new UK military airshow?
The only time I've been to Bruntingthorpe was when WM167 landed for the final time, in January 2019. I've not even looked at the photos they were that poor. Four hours standing in the cold was not pleasurable.JMC wrote: ↑Wed 17 Aug 2022, 10:03 pmI might be in the minority, but i’d happily attend a 4 hour show in the winter. I’m sick of being at shows where the heat was too much to enjoy it. An airshow wrapped up in a coat with a hot chocolate, sounds good to me.
Some of my favourite RIATs were the ones where it wasn’t baking. 2012/2016/2017/2019…
Can understand this wouldn’t be feasible as demo teams use this time to practice!
Re: Time for a new UK military airshow?
If my memory serves me correctly after Leuchars was closed and the Airshow sadly came to an end, was there not supposed to be a review with a view to establishing a new Airshow or shows to replace it? Can’t recall what happened with that if anything at all.
Re: Time for a new UK military airshow?
The coldest i've ever been at an aviation event. Ever.5944 wrote: ↑Thu 18 Aug 2022, 10:38 amThe only time I've been to Bruntingthorpe was when WM167 landed for the final time, in January 2019. I've not even looked at the photos they were that poor. Four hours standing in the cold was not pleasurable.JMC wrote: ↑Wed 17 Aug 2022, 10:03 pmI might be in the minority, but i’d happily attend a 4 hour show in the winter. I’m sick of being at shows where the heat was too much to enjoy it. An airshow wrapped up in a coat with a hot chocolate, sounds good to me.
Some of my favourite RIATs were the ones where it wasn’t baking. 2012/2016/2017/2019…
Can understand this wouldn’t be feasible as demo teams use this time to practice!
Still, worth it!
Re: Time for a new UK military airshow?
I do love winter spotting (when it’s good it’s great with nice soft sunlight and short days so you can call it quits at about 4:00 and go home early) but I’m not sure I’d like to be at an all day event, even in shorter days, freezing my fruits and with at least a 60% chance of horrid conditions, as others have said
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tomdjones/
Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/tomd.jones/
Hell is other people.
Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/tomd.jones/
Hell is other people.
Re: Time for a new UK military airshow?
I think you're right there. Back in 2009 there was this interesting interview piece with Andy Pawsey and the responses to the "will we see Griffin/Squirrel/Dominie ever display?" was "what benefit would the RAF have from displaying them?". Those responses always stuck with me and since then I've never expected anything more than the bare minimum from the public facing RAF.Tommy wrote: ↑Wed 17 Aug 2022, 2:55 pmThe “lack of will” vibe comes from, I think, a lack of imagination. I’m not convinced it’s a costs thing, but why is there no Texan solo after the Tucano retired? Has no thought been given to a Prefect or Phenom display? No Atlas demo? They did try to bring in a Hawk T2 pair in 2015 but that seems to have died a death.
Interestingly the article also noted that there wasn't a specific pot of cash for the RAF Events Team to use, instead they're resourced accordingly by Air Command. Assuming nothing has changed in terms of the structure of the RAF Events Team (it probably has, that interview was 13 years ago!) then it's got to just come down to a lack of willing.
Back at RIAT 2017 I was chatting to the pilot of the RAF Atlas who was saying that he was working up an Atlas solo for the RAF 100th anniversary year. Shame it never materialised!
Re: Time for a new UK military airshow?
There are positive noises about the 'Ayr'show returning in 2023 - in fact there was a piece about it in today's Daily Rectum.Unknown74 wrote: ↑Thu 18 Aug 2022, 5:00 pmIf my memory serves me correctly after Leuchars was closed and the Airshow sadly came to an end, was there not supposed to be a review with a view to establishing a new Airshow or shows to replace it? Can’t recall what happened with that if anything at all.
I'd also be keen to find out what the plans are for the event at East Fortune - between them I thought the two shows did a fair job of replacing the irreplaceable, and whilst we'll always miss Leuchars (mid-September has never felt quite the same since), having those two shows did at least keep the airshow scene in Scotland ticking along quite nicely. But to have nothing at all is just rubbish.
Posting comments on an aviation-related chatroom, are ya? Looks like it an' all...
Re: Time for a new UK military airshow?
Wow, a return of the Scottish International Ayr Show would be fantastic went to all the ones held since 2014 after Leuchars was denied to us thanks to the wrongful decision to hand it to the Army! East Fortune doesn’t quiet do it for me for some reason, to be honest I would rather go to Sunderland that same Weekend - went once & really enjoyed it. What we really need is an Airshow with a Flying and Static which was what Leuchars could provide, It’s really a big shame Lossiemouth is too far away to accomodate a Scottish Airshow.
Re: Time for a new UK military airshow?
Yup.. this numpty was lying on the ground waiting for the vampire to hot start for 10 mins.. bloody cold... this is after we all were nearly squashed by a Fiat 500.5944 wrote: ↑Thu 18 Aug 2022, 10:38 amThe only time I've been to Bruntingthorpe was when WM167 landed for the final time, in January 2019. I've not even looked at the photos they were that poor. Four hours standing in the cold was not pleasurable.JMC wrote: ↑Wed 17 Aug 2022, 10:03 pmI might be in the minority, but i’d happily attend a 4 hour show in the winter. I’m sick of being at shows where the heat was too much to enjoy it. An airshow wrapped up in a coat with a hot chocolate, sounds good to me.
Some of my favourite RIATs were the ones where it wasn’t baking. 2012/2016/2017/2019…
Can understand this wouldn’t be feasible as demo teams use this time to practice!
Canon 800D & Sigma 150-600 C
Dudley, West Midlands
Shows I'm Attending in 2020:
Well Um..
Dudley, West Midlands
Shows I'm Attending in 2020:
Well Um..
Re: Time for a new UK military airshow?
The forces are all short of people and find recruiting difficult. All we get is STEM this and STEM that - what inspired my generation was seeing aircraft, visiting RAF stations, taking part in cadet forces. Now the RAF is more interested in promoting all the things you can do in the RAF - that are nothing to do with aircraft. They are selling a lifestyle. But even if they think this is the way to go the big sell is mainly just at RIAT. Unless you are already interested in aircraft or a parent is if you are a young person you are not going to get exposed to it. Young people from London, Belfast, Manchester, Glasgow or Edinburgh just don't get the opportunity. The At Home days did a lot for recruitment - not just for aircrew but all branches where each could show what is does. The RAF needs open days at all of its meagre number of bases. In particular those near large cities. Sorry its not going to be large airshows but it could get the RAF back in the minds of people. Let's take Northolt - all of the RAF lifestyle /STEM stuff that was at RIAT during the day with static aircraft - maybe a few circuits with training aircraft. And the evening before a night shoot for the enthusiast. Perhaps larger displays at other bases with the display teams. It's clearly difficult for the RAF to capture the imagination of the young to take part and join when it has no imagination of its own at decision level.farnboroughrob wrote: ↑Wed 17 Aug 2022, 2:10 pmI would love to see a new military airshow but feel there is a total lack of commitment from the forces. We need to see comitment to show atleast a couple of aircraft from each squadron on the ground ( transports, Airseeker etc excluded) and atleast a demonstration of each type in the air. A real revival of the old 'RAF at home ' event, doesn't need to be massive. Add some RN and AAC helicopters and a smattering of NATO aircraft. Maybe one year at Benson or Odiham and next year Marham/Scampton/Waddington?
-
- Posts: 765
- Joined: Mon 29 Sep 2008, 12:23 pm
- Location: Romford, Essex
- Contact:
Re: Time for a new UK military airshow?
Hasn’t it always been like that, though? Join the RN and see the world, learn a trade in the RAF. I’d agree the lack of public visibility is a problem now, though. Perhaps also seeing too many service people spend 3-4 years in Afghanistan for no reason whatsoever has put people off.Berf wrote: ↑Fri 19 Aug 2022, 7:06 amThe forces are all short of people and find recruiting difficult. All we get is STEM this and STEM that - what inspired my generation was seeing aircraft, visiting RAF stations, taking part in cadet forces. Now the RAF is more interested in promoting all the things you can do in the RAF - that are nothing to do with aircraft. They are selling a lifestyle. But even if they think this is the way to go the big sell is mainly just at RIAT. Unless you are already interested in aircraft or a parent is if you are a young person you are not going to get exposed to it. Young people from London, Belfast, Manchester, Glasgow or Edinburgh just don't get the opportunity. The At Home days did a lot for recruitment - not just for aircrew but all branches where each could show what is does. The RAF needs open days at all of its meagre number of bases. In particular those near large cities. Sorry its not going to be large airshows but it could get the RAF back in the minds of people. Let's take Northolt - all of the RAF lifestyle /STEM stuff that was at RIAT during the day with static aircraft - maybe a few circuits with training aircraft. And the evening before a night shoot for the enthusiast. Perhaps larger displays at other bases with the display teams. It's clearly difficult for the RAF to capture the imagination of the young to take part and join when it has no imagination of its own at decision level.farnboroughrob wrote: ↑Wed 17 Aug 2022, 2:10 pmI would love to see a new military airshow but feel there is a total lack of commitment from the forces. We need to see comitment to show atleast a couple of aircraft from each squadron on the ground ( transports, Airseeker etc excluded) and atleast a demonstration of each type in the air. A real revival of the old 'RAF at home ' event, doesn't need to be massive. Add some RN and AAC helicopters and a smattering of NATO aircraft. Maybe one year at Benson or Odiham and next year Marham/Scampton/Waddington?
Ken
Re: Time for a new UK military airshow?
Absolutely, never quite understood the recruitment angle, sure it must help but how many that join the RN have actually even seen a ship let alone been on one and even less so been at sea on one. How many of those joining the army have sat in a tank or shot a rifle?
- Pat Murphy
- Posts: 2343
- Joined: Tue 02 Sep 2008, 11:37 pm
- Location: Denbigh, North Wales
Re: Time for a new UK military airshow?
Bit of thread creep but it's a big no thanks for a Winter Airshow. I remember the 16 and 54 Sqn disbandment ceremony at Coltishall one freezing cold day in March 2005. We had a cold wind off the North Sea, rain and the night before there was snow on the ground!
Still that display and airfield attack by the Jags was something to remember......
Still that display and airfield attack by the Jags was something to remember......